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Geek Culture / Starting your own country!

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Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:02
Now a country is just a bunch of people within a set space ruled by another bunch (well, most of the time) people, right (I know im being a bit vague, but bare with me)? You also (if you own your own house) own the land it's built on right? So can you declare you own house a free state and abide by your own rules?

Think about it the same sorta thing happens with embasseys, they are a part of the country they represent so why can we start our own DarkBASIC state?

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Dgamer
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:08
Quote: "Now a country is just a bunch of people within a set space ruled by another bunch."


No, a state is. Nothing overrules a country's authority, given that it wasn't invaded by another. Unless... there is a global government im unaware of...

The statement below is true
The statement above is false
Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:10
Think about it though if you've got the land ect than why can't you over throw the government on your patch? Gorvenments have been set up after revolutions so why not stage a mini one in your own back yard!

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Dgamer
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:17 Edited at: 30th Jan 2004 21:22
Because the government(country) owns that land. They own your land, including your back yard. Unless your willing to lead a rebellion with ur pistol or knife against M16's and Tanks.

Furthermore, If you want you're backyard to be a state, then it must have at least 50,000 people living in it. It cant be admitted as a state if there isn't enough population. (In the US, at least)

The statement below is true
The statement above is false
HZence
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:28
Did you get this idea from Family Guy?


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
Neophyte
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:51
@Killswitch

"Now a country is just a bunch of people within a set space ruled by another bunch (well, most of the time) people, right (I know im being a bit vague, but bare with me)? "

No, it isn't. When you go to school are you going to a government? When you go to work are you going to a government?

"Think about it though if you've got the land ect than why can't you over throw the government on your patch? "

As dgamer5000 said, you technically don't own your land or at least not in the sense that you think that you do. Your deed to your house means absolutely nothing without a government to back it up. Get rid of your government and your claim to that land is no more valid than anyone elses.

"Gorvenments have been set up after revolutions so why not stage a mini one in your own back yard!"

Because you'll get over thrown. There have been a lot of revolutions in the U.S., more than the history books tell you, and they have all save one(the Revolutionary War) been put down. They failed becuase of the simple fact that the current government is a lot stronger than the weaker government and can make it conform to its own rules. And rule number one is there is only one goverment in this country.

As to the question of embassys they are different. Embassys exist because the nation they reside in them wanted them to exist. You can't have an embassy in a nation that doesn't want one. There in lies the distiction. Embassys exist because the nation they reside in found them to have a usefull function(diplomacy) so they allowed them to be built there(or built them themselves!).

This is starkly different from just taking any peice of land and declaring it immune to any laws by that one government. There was no consent involved on the part of the parent government so it won't be allowed to last.

Hope I was clear.
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 21:55
Hey, who owns Antarctica?

David T
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 22:03
It's shared

"They misunderestimated us" - George Bush
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Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 22:12 Edited at: 30th Jan 2004 22:14
Surely the government wouldn't care about one house! Ah well it was a fun idea while it lasted.

Quote: "@Killswitch

"Now a country is just a bunch of people within a set space ruled by another bunch (well, most of the time) people, right (I know im being a bit vague, but bare with me)? "

No, it isn't. When you go to school are you going to a government? When you go to work are you going to a government?
"


I did say that I was being a bit vague.

Hmm... I guess now I'll have to find a new wa to take over the world...

Oh yeah! England is a monarchy the government doesn't own the land the Queen does!

Edit:

Ah I see there was some confusion, what I meant by a DarkBASIC state was a DarkBASIC country, im sure 'state' can be used to mean a country...

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Neophyte
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 22:27
@Killswitch

"Surely the government wouldn't care about one house!"

*cough*Wacco*cough*

"I did say that I was being a bit vague."

Sorry. Must have skimmed over that.

I'm too use to arguing with Raven.
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 22:56
ignoring all the posts after kills 1st post, can i be the king?


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Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 23:04 Edited at: 30th Jan 2004 23:05
Nah theres gonna be no King or Queen, you can be some really important over paied polition type dude though.

And Red Eye it's The Lord High Killswitch of the SJR

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 23:09
Cool, sounds good.
Chancellor of the Exchequer(sp?spell it like it sounds ) what does that guy do anyways?


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Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 23:19
He/she look after the budget, so I guess that means your in charge of buying Pizza and Coke then

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Ian T
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 23:19
Find an island nobody's discovered before and you might be able to start a government there. Might. But I think the oceans are owned too

Funny how it was all war and strife for 1000s of years and then global laws pop in and suddenly it's all frozen in place, unless you want to go against global laws. If this was a game, everybody would be planning to stay low right up until the global laws were introduced, where they'd snatch some land before anyone else could take it back

Real truth is no land really belongs to anybody... it's dirt and bedrock and grass which belongs to any human as much as the other. Right of conquest is no stronger or weaker than 'rightful ownership'. But right now we have this weak semblance of global peace holding things together... how long will it last?

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
Mattman
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 23:20
can I be the guy who chops of people's heads?

*chops of raven's head* WaHoo! What a cool job!!! *continues*

a
Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Jan 2004 23:26
No way! Not Raven! Who else will tell us, at length, stuff?

Besides decapitation is soo old, try death by cruise missile or something.

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 00:41
Could I torcher people by locking them in a room and them having to have Neophyte attempt to correct everything even though he sucks at it? Can I possibly also blow up canada?

Then comes tomorrow and you're a little shorter of your breath and one day closer to your death...
JoelJ
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 00:46
i dono if this has been covered...but techinically, YOU do NOT own your land...you have mortages and other crap...its really a licence

Ian T
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 01:07
Er, no, not if you actually buy the house. 99% of the people in America can't really buy their own house, however, and they end up paying off the debts for decades-- just the way things are.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
Easily Confused
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 01:25
My house is MY country, my domain and my rules apply

...though I fear I maybe overthrown by the silverfish at any moment

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Jeku
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 01:54
Well if you find an island that's far enough away from the countries (because the ocean countries own up to a certain distance), then you can technically claim it as its own "state" or "country".

Just look at Sealand.

http://www.sealandgov.com/
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.07/haven.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=

They even set up an internet hosting company on there to avoid most laws!


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 02:51
You would have to get your country recognised by the United Nations, if you did not then you would be subject to the following scenario (as provenanced a few years back by some nutter in America):

x Person declares their house to be an independant state.
x Person has taken land from another nation, and therefor committed an act of war.
x Government says "whatever".
x Person refuses to pay tax to government because they have their own taxation system.
x Government sends court order for person to pay taxes.
x Person refuses to attend court action of another state and refuses to accept the authority of the government.
x Government sends around thugs (called Policemen) to physically remove person and put them in detention.

There is another organisation that also uses the same principle of taxation or violence. They are called the Mafia.

The difference between the government and the Mafia is that the government pretends it is extorting money for our own good and we actually believe it.

The difference between your house being part of whatever country it is in, and being an independant state, is the military force to defend the boundaries and principles of your new state.

Politicians & other forms of criminal built the taxation systems, it is armies and police/courts that build the nations. Boundaries, whether moral standard or international borders, are defined by death and incarceration.

History has few exceptions. None that I could name.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Dave J
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 03:03
Quote: "Hey, who owns Antarctica?"


It's split into slices like a Pizza. A lot of countries own a certain percent of it which have borders like states. Look up an Atlas, it should have it in there.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Ian T
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 03:03 Edited at: 31st Jan 2004 03:04
GAH

To explain, I was just writing a very long reply to Andy's post, and my dog jumped onto my arm and managed to make me delete the whole thing while I was finishing my 6th paragraph. Can I rip somebody's arm off please...

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
Jeku
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 03:07
/\ CTRL-Z


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Dave J
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 03:35
Quote: "To explain, I was just writing a very long reply to Andy's post, and my dog jumped onto my arm and managed to make me delete the whole thing while I was finishing my 6th paragraph. Can I rip somebody's arm off please..."


Maybe you could rip your dogs leg off? That would certainly prevent it jumping onto you again.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Neophyte
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 04:09
@Mouse

"Real truth is no land really belongs to anybody... it's dirt and bedrock and grass which belongs to any human as much as the other. Right of conquest is no stronger or weaker than 'rightful ownership'. But right now we have this weak semblance of global peace holding things together... how long will it last?"

::applauds::

Its been a long time since I've agreed so completely with someone else on something. I really couldn't have said that better myself.

"To explain, I was just writing a very long reply to Andy's post, and my dog jumped onto my arm and managed to make me delete the whole thing while I was finishing my 6th paragraph. Can I rip somebody's arm off please..."

I know the feeling. I don't know the combination exactly, just that it involves the shift key, but there is a series of keys that when pressed will act as if you hit the back button in internet explorer. I can't count how many times I'm in the middle of one of my typically long rebuttals to one of Raven's posts and all of the sudden I hit that horrible key combination and suddenly I've lost what must have been 10 minutes of carefully crafted rebuttal.

This has screwed me over so many times that I've taken to opening notepad and peridically copying and pasting my post into it. Kind of like a primative save thing. Really agravating.

Anyway, I was thinking about argueing with Andy myself, but I think I've argued with enough people for a while. Besides, I wouldn't want to spoil your fun, that is if you are intending on finishing that post. I'm might reconsider and give it a go if you aren't because Andy is no Raven. I haven't seen him argue before I think so he might prove to be a worthy opponent.

@Killswitch

"No way! Not Raven! Who else will tell us, at length, stuff?"

LOL.

@Horror Help

"Could I torcher people by locking them in a room and them having to have Neophyte attempt to correct everything even though he sucks at it?"

You are just sore cause I owned you in that "Functions for sale at my site!!" thread.

@Jeku

Interesting. I hadn't heard about that.
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 04:22
while I disagree with most of what you say Neophyte I have copied things over before so it's not deleted

on other things, what do you mean by owned you (I don't speak Neophytean)

but on a positive note: Neophyte is a Neophytean

Then comes tomorrow and you're a little shorter of your breath and one day closer to your death...
Neophyte
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 04:39
@Horror Help

"while I disagree with most of what you say Neophyte I have copied things over before so it's not deleted"

What exactly do you disagree with me about? Do you mean the "Functions for sale at my site!!" thread?

"on other things, what do you mean by owned you (I don't speak Neophytean)"

Owned means to beat someone at something, usually a game, totally and effortlessly. Though some people use it to mean they just beat someone at something.

You posted something in the Functions for sale thread and I provided a careful rebuttal. You didn't defend a single thing that you said. I'd say that I beat you totally at debating that issue cause there is really little room for you to defend what you said. Thus I "owned" you. Unless of coarse, you are willing to argue your case. Then I wouldn't have owned you(yet, I'm cocky enough to think that I can win regardless. ).
Ian T
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 04:51
I think I'm going to rebuild the post late today or sometime tommorow, Neo, when I have the... drive... to go at the work I've already done again. I'm sure most of us here who write long posts have lost our work on a few forums thanks to deletion... I have a feeling there was a browser I used that actually allowed you to undo in boxes like these but I can't recall which now. Oh well ...

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
Jeku
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 04:57
I think the term 'owned' was originally 'skunked'. If you're playing a game of Snakes 'n' Ladders with a friend, and you beat him/her/it before he/she/it reaches the half-way point, you've skunked, or, owned him/her/it.


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 05:24
My 7-year-old compact laptop used to cutoff for no reason, so I poured diet coke on it (fine, it was an accident).

Then comes tomorrow and you're a little shorter of your breath and one day closer to your death...
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 05:24 Edited at: 31st Jan 2004 05:25
I take it back: you're not a jackass

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UnderLord
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 06:06
Yeah well if you own your own land (or so you think you do) and put up a fence and a no tresspassing sign then you have the right to shoot anyone on that land whether it be killing them or just maming. or atleast thats what im told. Well tresspassers anyhow...just not anyone errr...

The search continues.
Ian T
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 06:21
That wholly depends on the court. If they're drunk and accidentaly stumble into your territory, they might have to pay you $100 or so in the court, but you have to end up paying them $100,000 for damages and medical bills... and spend a year in jail

It's naturally worse in the UK where they think guns are the devil and prefer knifing people in the stomach.

Yes, I was joking.

Mostly.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
Dave J
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 08:00
What if it was a... postman... mailman... delivery guy.. FedEx Person or whatever you call them? Certainly you can't shoot him!


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
AlecM
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 09:32
"So can you declare you own house a free state and abide by your own rules?"
Only if the country you are leaving lets you. Odds are in any war they would win

TKF15H
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 12:06
I heard some guy bought an island for a whole lot of money from the USA, and declared it a free country. I think this was somewhere near
california.

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Because DEC 25 = OCT 31
Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 13:05
We don't think guns are the devil here! We think bad tea is! Spiffing and what not - oh jesus I can't believe I just said that. Besides there's been a rise in gun crime here if it carrys on long enough the government will legalise them so they can get some tax off of the gun retailers.

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 16:08
Guns will never be legalised in the UK. What I can forsee though in the future, a fair way off yet, will be more policemen carrying guns. At the moment we have various armed response units but I think in time we will see plod on the streets carrying guns as a matter of course.

Of course they will have to be politically accepteable gun, so likely they will be plastic, fire 9mm "be nice to each other" leaflets, and have a loud warning klaxon when you press the trigger with a 5 second delay before the payload is released. They will be made in Germany.

On the current path of events a determined criminal in Great Britain is free to do whatever they like. Our police focus on easy targets for the sake of statistics, leaving the way clear for the less disreable parts of our society to act as they please.

The good news is that speeding in motor cars is on the descrease, and fewer cars are parked on double yellow lines.

Sadly violent crime is soaring through the roof, but that is OK because new ways of collating and presenting data show that it has levelled out.

Meenwhile if you wish to go outside it is recommended you train very hard at self defence and are a good runner. For gods sake dont fight back against an attacker else you will be "Terry Martin"'ed. Additionally do not use a motor vehicle to escape the scene of a potentially violent incident unless it is as stolen as those pursuing you, because your local friendly GATSO camera will persecute all those who legitimately own their own vehicle.

If you do feel the need to carry an item of self defence, make sure you are not an electrician carrying a screwdriver as this is an offensive weapon and will leave you open to procesucution. Case history dictates that the penalty for this is 2 years imprisonment.

Whatever happens, ensure that you do not inhibit your aggressors right to a safe working environment. This includes keeping hallways in side your house clear from debris in case you are burgled, and always ensuring that your car is safely wired incase a criminal electrocutes themselves trying to turn off the alarm.

All statements in this post are based upon real UK court cases. This is genuine advise. Please understand that whilst I wish this was sarcastic, it infact is not.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Killswitch
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 16:20
The Uk isn't that bad, I mean a local paper declared my area to be the worst place to live in Britian! Did they even look at hackney/peckham/brixtan/wales?

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 16:25
lol@andy's post, even though it is all true!


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Neophyte
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 16:45
@Horror Help

"I take it back: you're not a jackass"

Then I take back what I said about you, whatever that may be.

@Underlord

"Yeah well if you own your own land (or so you think you do) and put up a fence and a no tresspassing sign then you have the right to shoot anyone on that land whether it be killing them or just maming."

Nope, 'fraid not. In order to legally kill someone you have demonstrate that you had no other choice in the situation and that it was self-defense. The courts here are very strict about that, so even if someone is mugging you, you can't just pull out a gun and cap them.

You have to make a reasonable attempt to resolve the situtation without using lethal force like say by pointing at the gun at the mugger's head and telling him to get lost or I'll blow you away. If he gets persistent and makes a grab for your gun or his, then you can probably shoot him. Even then you might be safer to just fire a few rounds into his body, instead of a few into his head. You don't want to appear to be too eager to kill someone. That can count against you in court as any prosecutor worth his salt will take advantage of that.
Ian T
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Posted: 31st Jan 2004 19:15
Always shoot the legs first . It makes sense in a dangerous situation and it's rarely lethal.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

I am the chainsaw paladin.
Andy
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 06:43 Edited at: 1st Feb 2004 06:44
>Find an island nobody's discovered before and you might be able to
>start a government there. Might. But I think the oceans are owned
>too

Or take over an existing island... Niue could be a good choice...It has independance, has only about 2000 citizens and is a democracy which should make it possible to take power in an orchestrated election.

>Funny how it was all war and strife for 1000s of years and then
>global laws pop in and suddenly it's all frozen in place, unless
>you want to go against global laws.

Well, the USSR was broken up(actually by coup and treason, which is an interesting but another matter entirely), creating 15 new nations and Chechoslovakia split in to 2. Then the EU is becoming larger, quite possibly at the expense of a few constitutions(again treason).

Today it would be more correct to talk about 'influence', such as nations waging war for national or commercial interests. Laws or no laws, the victor always writes history, or as Napoleon said it: History is simply the lies that great nations have agreed upon(freely translated from danish, go look it up if you want a better translation).

>Well if you find an island that's far enough away from the
>countries (because the ocean countries own up to a certain
>distance), then you can technically claim it as its own "state"
>or "country". Just look at Sealand.

Well, sealand was man made, which is also a possibility... Problem is that finding a place in the ocean which is sufficiently shallow depth and outside of any other nations territorial waters is going to be very dificult. And when you do, the second you start building, the neighbouring nation will immediately declare new wider territorial limits.

Andy
Killswitch
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Posted: 1st Feb 2004 14:17
Well if they did declare wider territorial limits then you could declare war right? I know it wouldbe fairly pointless - i mean a nation like the USA against a small island populated by one or two people weilding sticks. But perhaps they would back down, they wuoldn't want to be seen destroying another 'country' it would ruin their image, and war, as we have seen recently really messes up their image. Besides if they declared wider territorial limits surely each and every country in the world would also be entitled to. Then there would be arguements perhaps even wars over the new boarders - and all over a small island. Hey we could start WW3.

(Before you start correcting anything in this post, please remember im just kidding)

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Neophyte
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Joined: 23rd Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:02
@Killswitch

"(Before you start correcting anything in this post, please remember im just kidding)"

I know.
Killswitch
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Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: School damnit!! Let me go!! PLEASE!!!
Posted: 1st Feb 2004 18:41
Excellent muwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahah (que thunder and lightning) hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *cough* Urgh...



What in gods name was that just about?

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Lord Ozzum
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Joined: 29th Oct 2003
Location: Beyond the Realms of Death
Posted: 2nd Feb 2004 06:44
shoot them in the legs firast, that way they can't run

Then comes tomorrow and you're a little shorter of your breath and one day closer to your death...

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