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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / I'm sorry but...

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Mic Pringle
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Joined: 17th Sep 2002
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 00:25
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I'm sorry but I have to say it - DBPro, what a dissapointment. It's like finding out that the new, all star player to your favourite football team is all hype and no action.

There are several things that have brought me to this conclusion, so please don't take my ranting as 'oh, he's just another frustrated programmer', I am seriously dissapointed with the whole DB outfit.

Firstly, I sign up for DBDN which promised me betas and source code, and blah, blah, blah etc. After being a member for a month, I got a very unstable beta and two demos !! What a bargain for $40 !!

Then I pre-order my copy on the principal that all the hype spun out by the DB team would actually be reflected in the final product - how wrong could I be ??

Firstly, I placed my order two, or three days after my DBDN membership ran out, and was told by Rick that I didn't qualify for the discount, I'm sorry but I've just spent $40 on the DBDN membership and are willing to spend another $80 on DBPro and you throw it back in face, have you never heard of customer service !!

Anyway, I bit my lip and placed the pre-order, often emailing the DB team to find out when it was due for release (which by the way was pushed back several times) and the responses I got where very un-helpful !!

Finally, my copy arrived - hot off the press. But what's this, a note falls out of the box telling I must patch the software after installation - how unprofessional. Especially since it had only just been mastered !!

So I did as they asked, and guess what, the updater crashed my PC. Now when I run it again it tells me I don't need to patch, but the version info still says version 1.

Ignoring this, I thought I'd get on with some coding. But soon after this idea popped into my head, I hit my first wall. It doesn't work, loading MD2 and MD3's crashes DBPro. So I referred to the online help, which by the way is crap (pardon my french) but come on guys, my 14mth old son could do better !!!

So I got out my manual - ah, I now see where the guy who wrote the online help got his references from. The manual was even worse !!

So, as a last attempt, I thought I'd try the website for some code examples, but guess what, you have to subscribe to the DBDN for that - another $40.

So to sum up, I spent $40 on a DBDN membership which was a complete waste of time, I then spent $80 on a product which claims to be an advanced programming language - but what is really a wrapper for the DirectX layer and a very basic scripting language (Don't be fooled) and then before I can use it, they want me to shell out another $40 !!

You might say, check out the examples included. I'm sorry, but they are also (yes, here comes the French) crap. They don't not show you anything remotely interesting, and that's if you can get them to work.

But, please don't get me wrong (I do know how to program, I am a professional developer for a Telecomms company) DBPro did give me two things, a level of frustration I have never felt before, and an empty wallet !!
'I Thankyou'

Mic
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Chenak
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Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 18th Sep 2002 01:02
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Well, customer service is nearly always crap no matter what company you go to!

Anyway,it is your own fault you ordered DB a bit late(no offense)

To get the patch to work you have to install DB in the default directory (C:\program files\dark basic software...etc)
If the patch still don't work try downloading it again since the zip may be corrupt.
The patch does work but the version checker still thinks they are V1.0

Remember DB PRO is at it's first release, there's bound to be a load of bugs so be patient and wait for the up coming patches. Give the guys a break! (i think about 3 people programmed it)

DB pro is brilliant even though half of it don't work yet, you can still make a kick ass game with it!

C ya!
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las6
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Location: Finland
Posted: 18th Sep 2002 01:07
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well, just one thing comes to my mind... why on earth didn't you pre-order the DBpro while you were still on DBDN? why 3 days later... that doesn't make sense.

DBpro might not yet be really finished product. But the thing is, they are still working on it! So you might have a perfect tool on your hands soon.

Advanced Programming language. Well, advanced enough for me, but if you want more... I bet you know where to look. You saw the title "Basic" there, did you?

and yes, I agree that the examples don't show everything. but they are not the reason why I bought DBpro.

updater? the automatic one or the .exe?
And did you try uninstalling then reinstalling plus applying the patch.

and It all depends on your way how you react to different things in life. It sounds like you were expecting too much. You were overhyped, and that's why you are now dissappointed.

Maybe being depressed isn't such bad thing, at least you won't get too overhyped.

Specs :: [1333Mhz : 256DDR : Geforce 2 Mx 64MB]
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Thade!
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Joined: 11th Sep 2002
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 01:44
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Hey - I got my copy of DBPro today - ordered it last monday - thats a good service I guess.
I knew that I had to patch it - so I installed and patched - and guess what - everything works 100% as it should - maybe you should update your system - latest drivers or so or follow the instructions when you start to install it all over again?
I have spent 5 hours now for testing all the examples - made changes here and there and tried things out.
I can only say - not one error - a phantastic product - and that comes from someone who is the BOOMAN in all of the Blitzforums for always critisizing Blitz 3D for its errors and missing features and terrible documentations.
I am absolutely delighted with DarkBasicPro so far. I had DarkBasic before so I knew what I could await.
I tried 1 year on Conitecs Game Studio 3D (cost me $2000 - is complete rubbish, has a lousy support and using the scriptlanguage is like inventing your own 3d-engine)
Then 6 month Blitz3D (is a lot cheaper - but the graphics features are not as professional as I need it - X-files do not work - etc.)
Now 5 hours DarkBasicPro and after this short time checking it, I can already say - this is the one I will use from now on and in the future
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Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 01:45
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Mic, you have got a point.

You did it before with DB v.1, and you have done it again DBS team. Although DBPro is a very fast stable app. the fact that an incomplete bugfix had to be issued very soon after is poor.

DBPro was never advertised as anything other than a DirectX wrapper - It is a basic language and had you taken time to read the buff: "Makes 3D commands simple" you would have worked out what DBPro does. If you want an advanced programming language - Try C++, that can interface with DirectX just as well.

There are things like the Genesis engine, which is what I think you really wanted.

The DBS upgrade utility was CRAP - DBS: Use InstallShield or Setup Factory like everybody else.

what is a signature?
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Zdaxxy
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 04:35
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I've been with DB since the start...So DBPro has issues? If they can work them out as they did with DB, it wont be an issue.

DB is still a great product, I use it as a story board..I can write a quick game app and actually play my idea before investing tons of development time.

If the DB team can come thru with everything for DBP, I would actually consider publishing a game with it.

Comment on the bugs you find, work with it, and wait on the patches...

A great product will fail without support..
no matter what product that my be..

Keep your support team strong and your product will last.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 11:30
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Honestly, I don't think its a dissapointment at all.

Patching a product when its released is what every PROFESSIONAL software does. Microsoft does this, any PC games do this, just about anyone does this. Even Blitz had several patches right after launch to make it more bug free. Its life dude. Even Linux gets patches nearly everyday. Its a part of life.

Also what is a part of life is stupidity and you screwed up by trying to get a discount after your membership was up.

Writing a brand new language from the ground up is not easy and DBPro isn't just a DX wrapper, there are many things in DBPro which Direct X does not have and you have to code.

If your 14 year old son can do better, than by all means, get him working for DBS to improve the product or come out with your own Basic.

Dark Basic Pro -- The luxury for game programmers everywhere
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 13:01
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Docwiz: "If your 14 year old son can do better, than by all means, get him working for DBS"

In all fairness he was talking about the manual in this context - and even I have to agree with him a bit here, the manual is poorly lacking explanations and ought to be the first thing that is "patched" right now.

Mic Pringle: "So to sum up, I spent $40 on a DBDN membership which was a complete waste of time, I then spent $80 on a product which claims to be an advanced programming language - but what is really a wrapper for the DirectX layer and a very basic scripting language (Don't be fooled) and then before I can use it, they want me to shell out another $40 !!"

Okay a few things - DBDN gives back whatever you put into it, to date we've had a stack of alphas and betas right up to the 75-day trial version of beta3 which was extremely close to the final build so everyone on there was playing with that well ahead of release. There are far more than 2 demos, piles of code and thousands of messages. However you do NOT need membership in order to use DBPro and I'm not entirely sure why you think you do?

If it's such a "basic scripting language" then why do you need to see any code?! and I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong stating it is a scripting language and I would trust that a professional telecoms developer would know the difference.

MD2/3 models load without error here and for most other people I would suspect. I suggest you send a copy of the model that consistently crashes the machine to us so we can see why.

All software needs patches and the DBPro ones will continue for months and months yet - we will add in new commands, fix bugs, improve compatability - it's a standard product life cycle.

We will offer free code on this site in due course but to state the product is un-useable without it is a strange accusation to make.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Mic Pringle
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 15:57
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Rich,

Thanks for the response, and maybe I was a little hasty with some things I said, but you must understand, I was a little upset.

The reason I refer to needing source code examples from DBDN or on the official site, is because, as you agreed, the ones included are a bit vague and all seem to use the same things, would it not of been a better idea to show how to load each type of model supported etc.

As to the user who claims I am stupid, my DBDN subscription ran out about 3/4 days before we got the email saying we could pre-order. I was there fore not going to spend another $40 to get a discount !!

Obviously software needs patching, I just wouldn't expect this to be as soon as I open the box. It's like buying a car, would you be happy if someone sold you a new car but said "I'm sorry, we haven't finished developing the steering and the brakes don't need working - you'll have to wait until we fix this" - would you be happy.

I do agree that DBDN is a great thing, but don't forget the people who aren't a member, okay.

I do know the difference between scripting and coding, it just seems to me, that as it stands, DarkBasic is a little basic. Maybe it's because I haven't spent enough time with it, but I have no references. Which is why I was looking for code examples which are actually useful.

Overall, maybe I did take the wrong attitude with this post. And I would appreciate any code anyone has, anything at all that I can learn from showcasing different commands.

Please email me at mpringle@eggshell-interactive.co.uk if you have anything you can send me.

Finally, apologies to the team. Keep it up, and I'm sure we'll get there.

Mic

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 16:27
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Peace

what is a signature?
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AlecM
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 16:31
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Patching out of the box was a choice that DBS made. personally i agree with them on the issue. would you prefer to wait another 4-6 months for DBP? or would you rather get it now and patch later?

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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AlecM
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 16:34
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Also, The hype wasnt really generated by DBS. The hype came from all of us forum users.

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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las6
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 17:16
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yep, I agree with froggermonSSE... It's better that they released it now rather than later.

as for that car example, well... would you still like to wait for that car?

All hope is not lost, as they are still working. And now you have a chance of getting your ideas out and to the product. If you find bugs, report them... if you have some constructive criticism to give, please share your thoughts... I'm sure they listen.

Mic, do you have any particular things you need example code of? (I have a simple example for testing all the blend modes for example. [Set blend mapping] )
and Remember, DBpro hasn't been around for that long, so all the tricks are not yet done...

Specs :: [1333Mhz : 256DDR : Geforce 2 Mx 64MB]
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Nemesis
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 17:34
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Anyone here knows that 3/4 of program development is spent debugging. Just as we have to spend time getting out programs to work right, so do they. Just think of yourselves as beta testers. You find an error, you report it, and they fix it. Everyone's happy. Stuff like "DBpro sux and has heaps of errors" doesn't help anyone.

I know everything! At least I don't know anything I don't know.
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Mic Pringle
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 17:47
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Any code, but primaryily code that will show how to load and display MDL's, MD2's and MD3's.

If anyone has any of this code, then please forward it onto me at mpringle@eggshell-interactive.co.uk.

The best way for me learn (taking all your advice) is by example.

Cheers

Mic

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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 18th Sep 2002 18:58
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All 3D models are loaded in the same way. You can use "load object" to load any of the 3D formats e.g.



If you have any problems with models you are trying to load please send them to me and I can try and find out what is going wrong. My email address is mike@darkbasic.com.

Thanks,

Mike
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 19th Sep 2002 02:56
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"It's like buying a car, would you be happy if someone sold you a new car but said "I'm sorry, we haven't finished developing the steering and the brakes don't need working - you'll have to wait until we fix this" - would you be happy."

No because it would endanger my life and perhaps others. But this is a software program and patches are the way it goes. I wouldn't install Windows and not expect to patch it to high heaven - infact I don't think I have a single app on this box that hasn't been upgraded or patched in one way or another. To me the faster the patch is out the better.

I hope we will have some tutorials and code on-line really soon. Keep your eye out on the main page of the site.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Ian T
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Posted: 19th Sep 2002 05:46
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Darn, you're a really good peacemaker Rich .

Peace everyone!

I don't have my box yet, but I don't expect much of DVD-sized manuals anyways, luckily .

I hope it all goes well for you, Mic Prgle!

--Mouse
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