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Work in Progress / DarkBASIC Professional From the Ground Up - *NEW RELEASE*

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KC27
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Posted: 29th May 2004 22:40 Edited at: 29th May 2004 22:41
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The book is almost complete, now we just need some more input on the following things:

1. What is good about the book
2. What could be added to the book
3. Do you think this would be a good resource for complete beginners?

You can access the book here:

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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 01:50
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*bump*

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Diablo Roker
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Posted: 30th May 2004 02:10
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lets see...good content...i wish that the codes where blue*wink*wink* and i think its good
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IanM
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Posted: 30th May 2004 02:47
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I've taken a quick look at it. I've noted the following things that you might want to look at.

Chapter 1.
The alternate way of declaring variables.
a as integer
b as float
c as string

Chapter 3.
Abs will leave a positive number alone.
Rnd - max of 32767

Chapter 8.
Naming - use long descriptive names where relevant.
Try and avoid if...then...else. Use the multiline form instead - clearer

Chapter 10.
Example error - y2=y1(100/2)

Chapter 11.
Transparency option on PASTE IMAGE
Texture type on GET IMAGE

Chapter 12.
Sprites automatically have transparency when created

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
For free Plug-ins, source and the Interface library for Visual C++ 6, .NET and now for Dev-C++ http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
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the_winch
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Posted: 30th May 2004 03:02 Edited at: 30th May 2004 03:03
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A few of the snippets arn't indented. Making the code viusally different(different colour/style) to the rest of the text would help as well.

When talking about functions and gosubs I can't see any explaination of variable scope. You should probery also mention declairing variables as a type eg
i as integer

In a lot of you syntax examples you pass float values when the command accepts an integer. eg
MAKE LIGHT light#
Not really a good thing to teach people.
Other commands that accept floats have integers as arguments.

Perhaps showing the results of the examples would make things a bit clearer. eg
PRINT ABS(-13)
outputs 13

Quote: "Now, sprites are simply textured 2D plains, so there is no set transparency
the set sprite command. The SET SPRITE command has three flags."


Transparancy is on by default. Also you don't explain the 3 backsave modes and what they do which is something a beginer will want to know.

A section on timer() and fps based movement would be usefull as well.

he told me that he loved me and then he kicked me in the chest
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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 04:29
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I mean by light number (light#)

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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 04:33
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well, I am going to do another section to the book ,but for now this is it until the end of tomorrow.

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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 05:11
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Well, I fixed the stuff, new version uplaoded....see what you think of it now.

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 30th May 2004 06:23
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How about showing how to set up maps from external programs like CShop
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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 14:18
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Well, i have never used CShop, but I will do my best.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 30th May 2004 15:14
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There are currently two standard ways to use maps in DBPro from CShop, but you may, if you wish, have mention of the .CSM Importer for DarkBASIC Professional which makes life a little easier.

Paul.


Home of the Cartography Shop - DarkBASIC Professional map importer
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Binary Moon
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Posted: 30th May 2004 20:19
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Just to check - you did ask my permission before ripping off my DarkBASIC tutorials didn't you?

A reasonable amount of 'your book' is my tutorials that I wrote for the TGC website (http://developer.thegamecreators.com/?f=t02/bm_tutorial_index) with the variables edited and a few different words.

Nice of you to claim credit for them.

buy ExGen - it's good
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th May 2004 20:45
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now thats just not nice...

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 30th May 2004 20:58
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I must agree, the layout, titles and explanations in the tutorials are suspiciously similar, although most of the actual text seems to have been changed around quite a bit.

No other comment by me yet...

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David T
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Posted: 30th May 2004 21:03
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Quote: "Just to check - you did ask my permission before ripping off my DarkBASIC tutorials didn't you?

A reasonable amount of 'your book' is my tutorials that I wrote for the TGC website (http://developer.thegamecreators.com/?f=t02/bm_tutorial_index) with the variables edited and a few different words.

Nice of you to claim credit for them."


Deja-vous, eh?

Two strings walk into a bar. I'll have a pint says the first$%ASLDJ09920D"$"$D. Excuse my friend says the second, he isn't null terminated.
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MikeS
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Posted: 30th May 2004 21:23
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WMG sig

Quote: "Give All The Credit Away"


Why am I not surprised?



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 21:52
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No, ask Vash. I wrote this book with him, so please, let off.

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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 21:53
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And with that quote MikeS, it means be humble.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 30th May 2004 22:48
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Quote: "No, ask Vash. I wrote this book with him, so please, let off."


If you think is all Vash's doing, please contact him for information. We'd like to know what's going on.

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KC27
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Posted: 30th May 2004 23:30
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I wrote most of the chapters, he wrote walkthroughs, none of which were taken from Binary Moon.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 31st May 2004 00:32
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I have worked at my house making the content for this book for many hours, and I do not appreciate you saying that it is ripped off of the Binary Moon tutuorials. To tell you the truth, I have never used those as my friend SmokieMcPot walked me through DarkBASIC, so how can I rip something that I have never seen? The probable reason why it seems to be the same is because both tutorials are on DBP, which hasnt changed its basic structure. The tutorials are on the same subject. Its like looking at two different biograpies on the same author. They will seem to be pretty much the same aside for that the wording and opinion is different. In DarkBASIC, there is not too much opinion which explains your doubts as to the authenticity of our book. I can truly say that all work I put into this book is 100% my work, no one elses. I have no desire to steal other people's work and claim it as my own, as I have no reason to do so. I do see how you may think that it is ripped, but the fact remains that I did not copy any content from any tutorials.

Thank you IanM, the_winch, Diablo Roker, Aoneweb, and APEXnow for your input on this book. It is greatly appreciated. If anyone else has comments on what should be modified to make this book better, please notify us and we will change and add to the book as necessary.

-Vash the Stampede

Need help? Ask me via email, msn, aim, or forums and Ill see what I can do.

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The Lynx
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Posted: 31st May 2004 00:40
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Is it possible for you to change the background color to something other than white? It is a bit like reading words off a light bulb, and since your book is obviously long, it can really do damage to my eyes. Thanks
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KC27
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Posted: 31st May 2004 00:48
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yes, the only problem is that we hope to get this printed, and most print books arent fluorescent orange.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 31st May 2004 01:26 Edited at: 31st May 2004 01:27
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Vash - K, that's sorted then . I didn't for a second consider it ripped off, as the text is pretty different. Maybe Smokie was looking at the binary moon tutorial while walking you through, and that's why the sub-headers are almost exactly the same. I just was worried about saying stuff without a full statement from the author, which is what I just got .

Well done on the book, it looks pretty comprehenive and an easy read. I'm not really sure what purpose the list of commands at the back has, you can look in the reference manual for that. I'd take it out as it just seems to be taking up a lot of pages.

Keep working on it, and looks like a lot of newbs will be very happy .

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 01:04
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I have a few books on game creating and the dark basic book that helps with a lot of stuff, but I still have yet to see a book that would cover loading maps/modals form 3rd party programs.
It would be a good idea to add a chapter on this subject, you could cover direct x files that are exported from most map makers.
If you get your book published and it came with a cd, how about including a CShop demo or a free copy of DeleD(contact authors of the software first ), I think you could have a winner there.
I would love to see a hard copy book on Dark Basic Pro and would part with some cash, just to have it as a reference.
I have also thought that a book/tutorial with code, building a game from the ground up and letting the user load in their own maps and stuff would be a great start for newbies, and some collision detection, keyboard control etc. that could be used in their own projects would help more newbies understand the structure of game programing and give them a place to start.
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KC27
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 02:16
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We are working on all that you mentioned, and we are going to sell it for $12.00. The beginners guide is 40.00 and doesnt even cover a lot of game programming stuff.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 02:20
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Quote: "I have worked at my house making the content for this book for many hours, and I do not appreciate you saying that it is ripped off of the Binary Moon tutuorials."


Having similar (or even identical) chapter titles I can understand - although the fact the layout is identical is a little suspect. More worrying is the similarity in text. A few examples:

Binary Moon: "An integer is any whole number. These can be positive or negative. To make a number negative you just add a minus sign to the front of the value."

Your version: "An integer is any variable that is a whole number and is either positive or negative. To make the integer negative, just add the minus sign (-) before the number."

Binary Moon: "Functions and Sub Routines can be very handy for doing repetitive tasks many times."

Yours: "Functions and Subroutines are used for repetitive tasks in a game or application."

.. and there are others. The further into your book the less and less it looks like the original and it's obvious a lot of work has been put into enhancing the examples to provide more code than the original tutorial did, and customised for DBPro whereas the original was for DB.

The author did contact us to complain about this, but I'm happy to let it go in the hope that your version might help some newcomers to DBPro who otherwise missed the BM tutorials (or tried them and found they didn't work in DBPro!). For as long as your book remains free of charge, you are welcome to continue to talk about it and solicit feedback from our users.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 02:34 Edited at: 1st Jun 2004 02:34
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Quote: "Binary Moon: "Functions and Sub Routines can be very handy for doing repetitive tasks many times."

Yours: "Functions and Subroutines are used for repetitive tasks in a game or application.""


Not to be a jerk, but what else could someone write about subroutines and functions? It's impossible to make it completely original with no similar words. If I didn't see those example sentences and was asked to explain Subs, I would say

Subroutines enable you to call repetitive code many times.

You can't write it any other way because that's what it is. It's like explaining what a "program" is.

A program is made up of threads and/or processes which assist the user or OS in some way.

OR

A program is software the computer runs that perform tasks for the user. It is made up of processes and some contain threads.

See the similarities? Easy, huh?

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KC27
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 02:44
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@Rich and Binary Moon: I see your concern, and I will state I did do the layout based on Binary Moon, but did not copy the tutorials. And as you will see in a later update, I am covering advanced data handling, multiplayer, file handling, and hopefully a few example projects with walkthroughs. I am also contemplating adding a complete section, not just chapter, on maps. map loading, map types, and collision. I might also write a chapter on Nuclear Glory.

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 03:06
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Nuclear Glory would be a great idea, see that's the stuff newbie's need to know about.
$12 seems fair if you are going to be a little bigger than 66 pages.

I don't know any thing about other tutorials being ripped off but in this case I'm not sure there are too many ways of skinning a DB cat, I mean if it is going to encourage new members and sell more copies of DB pro and increase the size of this community then how bad could it be, lets work together to help all that have an interest in Game making.
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KC27
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 03:11
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@Rich, any places that you know of that I could get this published when totally finished.

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KC27
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 03:11
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This is not for the money, as I was going to charge $12, which is the exact cost of printing it at my local printshop.

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 03:32
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If the book gets pulished then how about giving Binary Moon a mention.
Publishers that I can think of.
Premier Press, the game developer series, or Charles river media who publish many a game developer book, including the only one I know for Jamagic.
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David T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 19:34
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Quote: "This is not for the money, as I was going to charge $12, which is the exact cost of printing it at my local printshop."


Didn't Rich say you could only distrib it free of charge...

Two strings walk into a bar. I'll have a pint says the first$%ASLDJ09920D"$"$D. Excuse my friend says the second, he isn't null terminated.
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Peter H
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 19:41
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i don't see why rich can tell WMGs what to do....

anyway i don't think he copied the tut, becuase there are only so many ways to explain some things...


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
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KC27
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 22:20
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Yes, well, the $12 is what it costs to get it published, so I have to charge $12 to not LOSE money.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 23:08
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Magellan Studios - Rich can't do anything, but Binary Moon could sue him for making money from something he gave away for free (well, that'd be his case anyway).

WMG - Proof that that is the exact cost would be the best way to ensure you don't get sued. Do the publishers have a website with the info on it?

Rich - Yeah, I saw those two examples as well, and I must admit the chances of getting them that similar are slim, but you read through the rest of the tutorial and the vocab seems quite different. It does look like some of the tutorial may have been looked at for reference while starting the book, but I think that is the extent of it.

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TheSquid
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 23:24 Edited at: 1st Jun 2004 23:24
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I've just gone through the first few sections of this book and it seems pretty obvious to me that it's ripped off. All of the examples are remarkably similar, even to the extent of using days of the week and enemy properties as array examples.

Plagerism, no matter how much or how little, should not be tolerated. WMG should not be given credit for only ripping off the first couple of chapters and then doing things on his own.

Besides, do we really want to take advice from someone who posts questions like this?

http://developer.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=31996&b=1

edit
It's kind of ironic that I suggested the Binary Moon solution!!!!
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Kentaree
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 23:51
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Agreed with TheSquid. I love the way WMG is now helping someone with a simple question, then saying how he shouldnt be thanked, and that's his duty. Sounds a bit cliched, does it not? I seriously doubt that that change has suddenly become so extreme, that he's turned into a different personality.

Its not a bug, its a feature!
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Binary Moon
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 23:54 Edited at: 1st Jun 2004 23:55
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There are other examples that are more obvious. The maths chapter which explains the maths commands in the same way and in the same order with the same examples (with a couple of extra samples added)... but that's not the point. My issue isn't with distributing/ writing the book. I wouldn't have written the tutorials if I didn't want them to be read. My issue is making people pay for something that has been given away for free.

If I had been emailed before my tutorials were used, and then given credit (Inspired by Ben at Binarymoon.co.uk?) Then I most likely would have said - 'fine - go ahead'.

The later sections are original. I didn't write a lot of the things mentioned so you obviously have enough knowledge to write the explanations yourself - which begs the question why didn't you write the really basic stuff on your own?

WMG - if you aren't going to be making money from the book then why bother getting it printed in the first place. Just give it away as a pdf like you are now. You will get a much larger audience doing this and people will be a lot happier for it.

Also you keep saying it going to be $12 and you want a publisher - Yet a publisher wouldn't expect you to get the book printed and then only charge what you payed for the printing. They would only sell something they thought would make them money - and decent computer books are rarely less than $20 - the publisher would dictate the price so whatever you say wouldn't matter.

Quote: "Rich can't do anything"


Since TGC commisioned the tutorials they can. And even if he couldn't it his forum so he can stop the book from being mentioned.

Quote: " Yes, well, the $12 is what it costs to get it published, so I have to charge $12 to not LOSE money."


Firstly $12 is what it costs to be printed - not published (you mentioned a printers) they are two very different things.

Secondly give it away as a free download and you won't be losing anything. In fact if you were to make a game and sell it on the website that people can download the book from it would act as free advertising.

buy ExGen - it's good
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Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2004 23:55 Edited at: 1st Jun 2004 23:59
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Seriously, it's like a garbage man writing a book on the proper techniques of spine surgery.
This has been all about the money from the beginning, that's all you're about man... MONEY MONEY MONEY.

COPY-PASTE NUB


OH and bumping a topic after 3 HOURS on one of the less popular forums is MORONIC in itself!

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KC27
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No, I am not all about money, CM[b][/b]C was, but I am not, so please do not keep accusing me of this.

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Jimmy
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Oh, so I supposed you're a "new person" now.

Well in that case, I was a man, but now i'm a woman! And i'm easy!
So get in line.

But to get back to the main point, have you or have you not had posts locked/deleted for advertising your money-making schemes AS WMG? How about the NG affiliate link? You sir, are a crud-monkey.

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MikeS
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2004 03:28
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Quote: "No, I am not all about money, C MC was, but I am not, so please do not keep accusing me of this."


C M C, your brother Christopher Gizzi right? You are Lyle, correct?

Anyway...

I'll just back off. (Started quoting some things that didn't make sense)



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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KC27
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2004 04:05
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Correct MikeS.

Chris has gotten better though.....he now posts in the Blitz Basic Forum.

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HZence
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I've always found it quite coincidental that you showed up right as Chris was banned.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Jimmy
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He uses his little brother's email account too

Can I get a what-what?

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TheSquid
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2004 04:55
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Quote: "I've always found it quite coincidental that you showed up right as Chris was banned.
"


And I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

Quote: "The later sections are original. I didn't write a lot of the things mentioned so you obviously have enough knowledge to write the explanations yourself - which begs the question why didn't you write the really basic stuff on your own?
"


The later sections were either ripped off from some other source, or Vash the Stampede actually wrote them himself. I doubt that WMG actually wrote anything legit.
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Rennekon
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Hey, can't you leave the guy alone? So what if he got interested when his brother was banned, it's not his fault that coincidences happen.

I also don't think he's doin it for the money. SOME people do things just for the good of helping someone. Its a good virtue that SOME people have.

And if he is doin it for the money, (which he has clearly stated against) I support him just the same, because who doesn't want a little extra change in their pockets.

John "Dark Lord of Angel Destroying Destiny" Pringlebee, maybe?
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KC27
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The later sections were either ripped off from some other source, or Vash the Stampede actually wrote them himself. I doubt that WMG actually wrote anything legit.

Actually I have written 85% of the book.

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