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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DirectX 9 released

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Vulcan Omega
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Posted: 21st Dec 2002 10:24
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I just wanted to say that DirectX 9 has been released, that's if you don't know it has been released already.

To download DirectX 9 goto the homepage
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/directx/default.asp
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n3t3r453r
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Posted: 21st Dec 2002 10:43
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OK. Thanks. But beta version has been released already for a month.
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IanM
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Posted: 21st Dec 2002 13:12
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Well, yes. But I choose not to use microsoft beta software. Even for the simplest things, they seem to change half of your system.

I certainly want the release version though. Thanks Vulcan Omega.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2002 01:58
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Download the Full Edition (which i was gonna upload for everyone, blasted Microsoft beat me to it )

Trust me the speed over the Beta and Debug is just mind blowing - DirectX and OpenGL on roughly equal terms without Optimisation, now i call that an achievement.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Yskonyn
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2002 20:29
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Be careful though!
Some users have been reporting weird problems after having installed DX9! Parts of games not working anymore, frequent crashes and the like.
I have no problem myself, but just take it as a warning.

Yskonyn -
"It's better to wish down here you were up, then to wish up there you were down."
"The ONLY time you have too much fuel on board is when you are on fire."
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Rob K
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Posted: 28th Dec 2002 15:40
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Certain DBP commands no longer work after upgrading to DX9 - Set reflection shading on for example.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Dec 2002 16:24
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i've noticed a weird system speed bug ... everytime i think i've isolated it - something else happens
gonna downgrade to 8.1 again and see if it fixxes it

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Yskonyn
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Posted: 28th Dec 2002 19:44
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Let us know please, raven

Yskonyn -
"It's better to wish down here you were up, then to wish up there you were down."
"The ONLY time you have too much fuel on board is when you are on fire."
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Megaman X
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Posted: 28th Dec 2002 22:00
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Using DirectX 9.0 here and WinXP... have not noticed any diferences

"Never argue with an Idiot, they will always bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
-- Megaman X
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Dec 2002 00:02
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No - and it shouldn't affect games as they use DX8/8.1 - unless Microsoft have messed around with past code...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Dec 2002 07:22
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oki doki found one thing out... you can't uninstall the bloody thing.

And anyone else noticed it uses the Beta Release rather than the Final Retail?
Rouge you made a post about the differences in General forums ... and i'd love to understand about the current speed problems i'm having with my entire system.
Dx9 is just a probably a cause because prior to installing Dx9 00.900 i was using Beta 03.382 - now i didn't have any problems with that, buht it was a completely different setup workup. The emphasis was on Media rather than graphics ... the released one it seems only the graphics have been updated.

There are a hell of alot of questions about this particular release of 9 - especially as from what i gather this one was never Beta Released.

See here in lies the weird problems, Generally only experienced with XP users - D3DX9.DLL contains 3 DirectX Engines

Direct 7.0 ; DirectX 8.1 ; DirectX 9.0
Now for Legacy compatibility 7.0 & 8.1 SHOULD be identicle to thier predessors. However they're not, which actually raises a few eye brows.
I'm gonna continue to attempt to uninstall Dx9 and reinstall Dx8 ... but i have a feeling to achieve this like in WinME i'll have to install Dx6

problem is WinXP only support Dx8.0+
this is not gonna be fun

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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heartbone
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Posted: 29th Dec 2002 07:32
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Micro$oft warns you before the upgrade install that it is irreversable. You must reinstall and reactivate XP to go back. This is the same limitation that existed for DX6 to DX7 to DX8, the Micro$oft way. I'll wait until I need to upgrade which I'm sure will be soon enough.

Why in the world do people go out and muck around with critical system software unnecessarily and then expect everything to function as if nothing changed?

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Dec 2002 15:56
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problem is i upgraded from Dx9 Beta to Retail... wasn't until i upgraded to the Retail within Release SDK that i've had the problems.

But atleast the Beta allowed me to swap between Dx9 and Dx8.2 ... i could even uninstall but the options menu which allowed this no longer runs
I can't even edit the debug levels anymore!!

Seem kinda stupid that Dx7+ won't install over later versions and you can no longer uninstall them ... its stuff like this which remind me why Microsoft are so screwed up in terms of development.
And the fact the entire core has changed without extensive beta testing is just completely insane!!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Megaman X
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Posted: 29th Dec 2002 17:19
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Mr. Vegeta U mean that post where I said that some games have increased the general fps under XP ratter then Win98?. Well, in my case, many many games runs really faster with Windows XP. Games as GTA3 and Dungeon Siege are uncomparable in my two systems ( P4 - 2GHZ and AMD 800 MHZ ) running on WinXP. However, there's a bad DirectX's d3d8.dll that can mess with some games. Go in "Run" and type DXDIAG. That should bring the directx diagnostic screen. On the tab DirectX-Files u may see the files which compose ur current directX. If ur D3D8.dll ends with 0000 (eg.5.01.2600.0000) that's a bad one . Many games shows up speed problems and 2D glitches with that dll, standart for XP users...
Now it also shows for us the d3d9.dll check if the version u have is 5.03.0000.0900. Maybe DirectX 9.0 did not update this dll for u when u upgraded from the beta to retail if did not, it's just to replace the dll in the system folder . I also don't know what can happens if u upgraded from DirectX 8.1 with bad d3d8.dll to the DirectX 9.0... should replace, but MS we never know

The average of speed for me in the case of GTA3 was about 30-35 FPS under Win98 and over 60 fPS with winXP in the same machine with the same version of detonators drivers and DirectX versions...

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
-- Rogue
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Viktor
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Posted: 29th Dec 2002 18:13
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I will wait until DX9.1 appears before I do upgrade (or downgrade) my very stable system...

PC: AMD 1200/512 Mb SDR/GF2MX Dual Display/Win2000, 19" Monitor
ZX: Spectrum 128+ Customized version.
Current Project: BMP2SCR Pro (with LDIR)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Dec 2002 03:57
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well right now there is nothing wrong with the Dx8 and Dx9 dlls - and they're the exact same version number...
[5.03.0000.0900]
my problem i think is further down ->


Now i don't think it particularly liked being updated, yet i can't uninstall and reinstalling doesn't update them
i wouldn't say you'll wait until 9.1 and install then, cause its synominous. They won't even bother to update for a while until its all mainstream enough and when they do it'll not really fixx the bugs just add new ones.
8.0 -> 8.1 has to be the worst cause they changed the entire backbone of the API and combined it all into a single setup from the seperate setups. My odds on bet they released this version just to show everyone the possible speed and the next version will see the changes the earlier betas actually had

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Megaman X
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Posted: 30th Dec 2002 05:17
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That sounds bad . We also have a very diferent DirectX Diagnostic Screen. Here is mine in swedish, but u might see how it's showed:

http://www.geocities.com/roguegamedev/temp/directx9.jpg


Although many versions we have are with the same number, the tab atributes shows the dll which are final and beta...
There is a way to replace those dll's manually.
press ctrl+alt+del. In the tab "process", make sure all programs are ended, but not explorer, which is windows itselfs

After that, in the windows folder (usually windows\system32) u may find all dll's which compose MS DirectX.
U could simply download from MS homepage ( if u can find something there... I can't...lol )the new dll's and overwrite the old ones or get from a friend's computer or join my msn and I give them to u .
U can see that even my windows being in swedish, there's files in english ( engelska ) and swedish ( svenska ), so whould be no problem to use final dll's even from other languages

If u do not close all applications with ctrl+alt+del and overwrite the old dll's they won't be overwrited ( I've tried b4...ghehe ).

If u overwrite the dll's for all retail, I can almost promise next time u run dxdiag those error messages will be gone and ur system will be stable again .

Good luck Raven

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
-- Rogue
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Megaman X
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Posted: 30th Dec 2002 05:19
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or maybe... u could try to reinstal DirectX 9.0 final after closing all aplications with ctrl+alt+del and run the apps... as the dll's are not being used, they could be overwritten... (Just a guess)

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
-- Rogue
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 30th Dec 2002 05:25
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I would like to say, I had no problems with DX9 on any of my 3 machines...

I, likewise, suggest a re-install of the retail version of DX9.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Dec 2002 08:09
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they look identical to me ... i have a Sound tab per Speaker system - so with 8.1 you get 4 of them

guys looks very closely, and perhap you'll understand why i can't do what you've suggested.
The filenames are identical, now as WinXP REQUIRES DirectX to run - i'm a bit skeptical of deleting the core code DLLs which it requires, just to solve the problem.

Resintalled the retail 2 from standalone, once from Webpacket ... not really sure what exactly to do
Damn the incompatibilties!!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Megaman X
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Posted: 30th Dec 2002 11:07
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
-- Rogue
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mizabyte
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Posted: 31st Dec 2002 19:48
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people think m$ sucks in development because of the number of bugs reported. this is because almost all users use m$ products, so more and more bugs are reported than other software. you can not blame microsoft for this, because if another software was used by millions or billions of users, a lot of bugs would also be reported.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Dec 2002 20:01
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erm... with something as important as this then you actually kinda hope that these "bugs" are taken out in development, not created and untested!
plus this is about the graphics API portion, which in that respects OpenGL has just as many users - not even close to as many bugs because each manufactuer themselves actually develops the drivers so if anything goes wrong in OpenGL its THEIR fault not SGI's

I'd report this bug, but there is a good chance they'll never read it - because there are millions of people who report bugs and i don't see many actually getting fixxed because Microsoft works around the idea that your WORK AROUND a problem rather than actually fixxing it.

i mean FGS that is the whole reason behind having DirectX!
its a bloody work around in the Windows OSs which SHOULD never have made it into production!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Dec 2002 22:40
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We can't really complain about MS - You pay money to get a product, they give you the product. They don't charge for DirectX.

The best workaround is to support software like Linux and force MS to change their attitude.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 1st Jan 2003 01:05
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I would support Linux if a) more games were availiable for it, b) it was as stable as Windows XP, c) it knew about most hardware and d) it was a lot easier to use, especially with installing updates etc.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2003 12:50
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Toads got a good point... the only reason it isn't a mainstream OS for the homeuser is because computers are no longer for just Nerds - but for everyone.

you don't need to understand the innerworkings of XP, if something goes wrong you just run a program and XP will tell you what you can do - and if all else fails you can reinstall with ease and not worry about 6million driver disks, if you system is fully supported or anything.

Think is an idiot proof windows is all good now, but the universe just keeps making better and better idiots. So it is hard on a company like Microsoft to develop a product which is good for the new and improved idiot but also the for the seasoned professional
Personally I think that Microsoft should sit back and just redevelop the backbone of Windows from scratch - however as far as the interface goes you have to admit it is probably one of the easiest there is

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2003 13:22
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Erm...

Linux is far more stable than XP (I have never had Linux crash). Admittedly though Linux developers are terrible at making good user interfaces (worse than DBS are at fixing bugs ) which is why not enough people use it.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2003 16:51
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I had Suse Professional for a while (before I sold it) - a lot of game would crash, needing a complete switch on/off - I wouldn't have minded so much if I didn't need to do that.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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MushroomHead
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2003 18:12
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Seems to work pretty stable here, apart from two demos where I get a window with white screen (the window locks up so I guess it's crashed or something). This is on an AMD 1.4Ghz 512MB DDR, WinXP and GF4 ti4400 ... I guess the reason the two samples crash could be DX9 only features supported only on DX9 based cards.

There's hardly anything new in DX9, I have noticed online multiplayer games speed up termendously (my usual ping using a 512k DSL cable modem to one server was around 200, this has now dropped between 130 to 160) ... also updates happen so fast on Lithtech engine based AVP2 that other players appear to dart about making it difficult to aim. I haven't tried DX9 on Quake 3 though maybe someone can tell us of any speed differences?

Ok, they also seem to have included an easier shader/vertex coder but they also say that not all .FX based shaders can guarantee to work ... why the hell don't they take a leaf out of John Carmack's book and implement Quake 3 based shader engine instead of complicating the darn thing even more??!??

- Rav.
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Shadow Robert
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erm Speed Difference in Quake3 is ZERO ... Q3 is pure OpenGL. Microsoft never complicated the fact of Shaders, because Shaders are originally OpenGL hardware based - but based upon standard Layer Textures which 3D Packages have been using for years.
Whole thing is silly really and quite simple to emulate simple ones without much trouble.

As for Linux and Unix - i've used several and i've found them quite easi to crash with the slightest thing - and unlike windows they don't tell you they have either. They just get "stuck" ... atleast with windows it tells you what the hell has happend and that you can't do a damn thin about it
Windows also runs a special mode of ScanDisk which checks the Operating Systems status and prevents the crash from reoccuring - WindowsXP and .Net even send off bug reports they compile when they update and whenever you tell a program to so you don't have to file a report yourself and all the technical info Microsoft needs is right there.

I mean Linux|Unix are nice and all ... but really compared to the latest Windows - I'll go windows everytime, because the bugs are fixxed, might not be overnite but a bunch of nerds on a website - but they are done and it has maximum compatiblity.
The WindowsNT Operating System is actually far more stable than almost every other OS out there - always has been.
The real problem which causes the crashs is actually the legacy compatibilty and trying to work around DOS still.
Its about time they just rewrote it and emulated everything rather than environment swapping.

You really want to see a DirectX 9 performance jump, run Black&White ... on my Laptop the FPS jumped from 45 to 67, this is with full graphics at 800x600 and the mouse no longer lags.
Other good ones are using the Unreal2 Engine, like UT2K3 and AAO etc...

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2003 01:28
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"Speed Difference in Quake3 is ZERO ..."

Warning! Idot alert!

(I wouldn't say that, but it does say "OpenGL driver..." at startup)

Sorry, no offense intended

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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MrTAToad
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I would much prefer Windows now to be in ROM, and patches loaded from the hard drive at startup. That way you wouldn't need to re-install the OS when you get a new hard drive, the base OS cant get corrupted and, I would think it would be a lot harder to make illegial copies.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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MrTAToad
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I forgot to mention that bootup times would be MUCH quicker.

This is how the RiscOS system worked - it was brilliant.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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MrTAToad
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The problem with that of course is that the computers would become over priced (look at Apple).

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Quake3 uses no DirectX in any fashion or form... it doesn't even use any windows in any fashion or form.

C & OpenGL Code - and if you don't believe there is no speed difference check prior to updating and after.
It will increase in speed however if you update your graphics drivers or GLSetup because they're designed to enhance the speed between OpenGL & Windows whilst adding extra compatibility.
Also feel free to download the Engine SDK from idsoftware.com's FTP

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Kangaroo2
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If Darkbasicpro was compatible with Linux AND Windows, I might have not bothered with Windows

Vegeta: Obvious point I'm afraid but can't you just use a standard Win XP system restore point before you installed DX9? obviously backup important file first just incase. Saves formatting or reinstalling a ghost tho

* If the apocalypse comes, email me *
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Megaman X
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Well, I not really like Linux. BUT, jamagic seems to be like a good idea. It can render in software/opengl/directX and is ass fast as DBpro or BB, even being an interpreted language. The beauty of it is that the creators ( click team ) are planning in a soon future, a port to Linux and MacOS... that would be GREAT. however, the demos included on Jamagic were not really impressive... but the idea is

--Ryu :-]
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Rob K
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Posted: 4th Jan 2003 13:55
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To back up Raven's point, the fact that you can get Q3 for MacOS and Linux as well shows that it is not DirectX

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Hilmi2k
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Posted: 4th Jan 2003 22:56
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Try red hat 8, and pray for more games. Otherwise, wish granted.

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MrTAToad
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The other problem with Linux is that its too fragmented.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Kangaroo2
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Jamagic is a great idea in principle, but the games I've seen made in it are far from impressive. Plus its Javascript based, which is a kinda screwy way to do it...(?)

* If the apocalypse comes, email me *
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MrTAToad
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I certainly wouldn't use Java for games. Mind you, I wouldn't use Java at all...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Kangaroo2
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exactly - and it wasn't even Java but Javascript! Bwaaaa haaa hhaaaaa

* If the apocalypse comes, email me *
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Yskonyn
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Jamagic, yeah that from the creators of Klik and Play and The Games Factory; nice software suites, both of em at that time. Though Jamagic does not seem to get off the ground much does it?

Yskonyn -
"It's better to wish down here you were up, then to wish up there you were down."
"The ONLY time you have too much fuel on board is when you are on fire."
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Kangaroo2
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TGF K&P C&C were all cool, if limited. I still use the professional Version of Click and Create sometimes if I need to make a 2d app quickly

* If the apocalypse comes, email me *
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