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Geek Culture / Conspiracies

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 12:27
Does anyone here believe in conspiracies?
I believe that the hospitals won't treat you if you hare an organ donor. I think they'll just leave you to die, so they can use your organs.
I also don't trust the government...yes, I am weird.

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DrakeX
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 12:32
"I also don't trust the government...yes, I am weird"

if you trust the government, you are weird. but that's not to say that you should go to the other extreme. the government is a vast entity - some parts are just fine, and i wouldn't be surprised if others were corrupt, or just evil. depends on who you ask, though, who is evil. HB thinks the president is. personally i don't know who is, but the pentagon is a big place with lots of room for secret things....

but please - don't let conspiracies rule your life. don't think that people are bad by default. look at the world with a brighter perspective, and it'll look like a nice place. life's too short to go around thinking that there's someone out to kill you around every corner and that you're the only sane one around.

OK enough of that damn DBP fanboy banner. i'm NOT a DBP fanboy in any way. i haven't used DBP in over a year, and i don't really plan on using it again.
Ian T
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 13:04
There are conspiracies everywhere and they have always existed. I think you're talking more about conspiracy theories which, while still vague in its literal definition, refers to a particular type of theory.

It's very foolish to blindly trust the government. In fact, the founding fathers of this country wrote the constitution with creating a limited and weak internal government in mind, because they quite wisely knew that governments were as an entity never benevolent or kind. Unfortunatly, the US government today is not constitutional at all. It has too much power and it uses that power too much. So it is very wise not to trust it.

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Neofish
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Posted: 12th Sep 2004 21:09
conspiracy theories involve one person
conspiracies involve more than one

thats how they are defined

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 01:49
Ooookay

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 01:58 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 02:11
See the 9/11 thread. I believe someone quoted me, then provided a REALLY good blurb on a conspiracy.

You see, I think some parts of 9/11 were faked. The pentagon strike, to be exact. One conspiracy site I like (well, it's not great, but) is www.911uncovered.com. The video that got me thinking about this: (http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php).


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Major Payn
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 03:01
I believe the only reason we havnt found a cure for cancer, is becuase the doctors are afraid that they will lose all the money they would have got from cancer patiants who have to go through all those checkups and treatments.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
the_winch
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 03:48
Quote: "I believe the only reason we havnt found a cure for cancer, is becuase the doctors are afraid that they will lose all the money they would have got from cancer patiants who have to go through all those checkups and treatments."


Plus they like nothing more than watching people die, why else would you work with people who have cancer?


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GICO
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 03:53
And the doctors have an alliance with the undertaker, so the doctors wont give patient the right cure!! The doctors get paid very well from the undertakers!

GICO

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Major Payn
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 04:21
I also believe that the USA is not run by politions, its run by a secret group of very, very rich people, what they say needs to be done, it needs to be done, the War in Iraq was a way for these very rich people to get a country very rich in oil, the president is just told to do things, he has only limited power, the rest is up to these secret individuals, I call them a shadow government.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Neofish
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 04:58
isnt the shadow government an actual thing, i played a game about it and it seemed not like that + the president could rebel and have them bombed or something (arresting wouldnt work )

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:07
It's a popular leftist theory.

Since this is moving along into political grounds I'm going to mark as flamebait. Just play nice-- IE no personal attacks-- and debate away ...

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:09 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 05:09
In reply to what Chris Knott posted in the 9/11 thread:

Chris Knott, tell me, how much time to the Japanese spend on 9/11 remembering the people who died in the towers? Oh? I thought so. That's how it works. We remember our own lost. There is far too much death in the world to carry the burden of it all.

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Neofish
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:13
yes but isnt it better to remember everyone, what you say is elitist and maybe if you would go so far, racist. If the Japanese dont comiserate 9/11 then they are at fault, we shouldn't lower ourself to that level.

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the_winch
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:18
Isn't this thread about conspiracies? What has people in japan remembering dead people in 9/11 got to do with conspiracies?


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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:19
Well I didn't want to create a new thread about it, and this is wandering right into the territory of political discussion. But if the Ozzum feels it's off topic I'll gladly remove my post .

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Neofish
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:24
yep, mine too

so conspiracies: i cant remember any, but my friend (well aquaintance) believes that the CIA organised wars and everything (including WW2)

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:28
I don't believe the Japanese would be at fault for not commemorating it N30. And how is it racist? Anyways, that aside, I would fully understand if they had a day to remember Hiroshima; I hope they do. Regardless of how much their government made it imperitive, all the lives lost that day should be remembered. But by everyone in the world? Not really. There's nothing wrong with spending more time mourning for your brothers than your allies or enemies. Just because you celebrate your family's birthdays, for example, and not all the birthdays in the world, doesn't mean you think they matter more than everyone elses'. But they're closer to you. Similarly, our countries are closer to us than foreign countries, and it is their deaths we remember.

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:30 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 05:35
that thing u said about the 9/11, i dunno if u've seen what i said in the 9/11 thread so ill repeat it here:

strange how neither black boxes from the planes that went into the towers survived, yet ones of the passangers passports was found perfectly intact in the rubble, and it also just so happened to be one of the hijackers.

edit: i forgot to mention something else:

bin laden is on a dialysis!!! he's a 50 yr old man with no liver being chased around the desert on a stretcher, by the west's most 1337 troops, and he still hasnt been found yet! something going on there.

</edit>

consiracies are far more widespread than even i imagine. did you know theres even a conspiracy about butter and margerine? im being totally serius about this, my step-dads in the food business and knows all these secrets.

infact, i reckon just about everything on the other side of the atlantic has <99% truth, imfact, the only thing i dont think was faked was the moon landing, i believe that was real.

David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:33 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 05:34
Quote: "If the Japanese dont comiserate 9/11 then they are at fault, we shouldn't lower ourself to that level."


They won't spend as much time remebering it as, and I mean no offence here, it literally wasn't their problem.

However many people around the world are kind hearted enough to take time out the remember it, even those who didn't lose anybody - and that happens in most countries around the world.

On a different note, the UK doesn't spend as much time remembering it as the US. Yes there may be formal services but on Friday I didn't encounter 1 person who mentioned it.

Does that mean the UK is at fault?

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Neofish
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:36 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 05:39
Quote: "And how is it racist?"

i said if you took it too far, more extreme elitism is racist but not in this case

i never thought the moonlanding was faked until the program was on TV, but i didnt watch it so i dont have a clue

EDIT:
Quote: "Does that mean the UK is at fault?"

no but many people dont express their feelings and comeserations to people that have died (i for example havent) and keep it to themselves, anyway my argument is flawed

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:39
i didnt notice it either- infact, september 11 just went by and i completly forgot about it all, tho i guess i can blame some of it on not knowing the actual date on that day

Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 05:41 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 05:42
Froogle... we're not looking for him anymore. I believe he's in a country we have virtually no presense in now. The guy's very, very smart, you have to give him that. There was too much to-do about invading Iraq beforehand for it to have had any real chance of giving him to us.

If you really want someone to blame-- President Clinton. He was offered Osama but turned the issue down because he didn't want a foreign event like that interupting his presidency.

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David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 06:16 Edited at: 13th Sep 2004 06:17
This is a flamebait? Already? I don't think its got too out of hand yet. Still a discussion

In fact, you've made a few flamey comments Mouse

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 06:24
I don't see any . You mean debate-like? One can disagree with aguing ...

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David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 06:40
I suppose I worded it wrongly

I didn't mean it nastily, I just said that is you consider some of the comments here worthy of a flame bait then they're really not that worse than some of the stuff you or I have said.

And I assume you baited this, if you didn't then you can all ignore me

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 06:49
I did flamebait it... flamebait doesn't mean someone said something stupid or made a flame though. It just means it's a volatile topic likely to recieve flames.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 11:20
@N30F15H: If you want to see some of the flaws on the fake moon landing conspiracy, check out this link I saw on TCA's site some time back:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

@Mouse: No problem with your posts.

Ozzy rules.
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 18:26
I don't believe 911 conspiracy as in it was orchistrated by US government - its a pretty far fetched idea IMHO.

But it wouldn't surprise me if intelligence was onto the gang responsible, just knowing they were planning some kind of terrorist bombing but not knowing exactly what, and were ordered by the powers that be to let them slip under the radar. I think maybe that powers that be were hoping for some kind of truck bomb - giving them the excuse to go into Afghanistan.
The look on Bush's face when he was told about it at that school he was reading to kids at didn't look like the expression of a man thinking "OMG!" - but a look of a man thinking "So THATS what they wanted to blow up - sh*t we shoulda stopped 'em"


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RougeCat
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 19:00
Well it could be that G.Bush was unawares of the target of the attack but was indeed aware of the attack. Maybe the high rollers in the gov planned the rest with the help of the terrorists. Also the so called terrorists (osama's army) were actually put together by the American Intelligence during the gulf wars. This was a deviation army created on the soul purpose of fighting against the Russians who were closing in on the Afghan positions then. So its all the more sensible that the 911 was a coordinated effort by the American Intelligence n the terrorists. Even the continued attacks in Iraq by the terror groups is just a gud excuse for the American troops to continue their stay in that country. Did this not strike any 1 of u?
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 19:31
I do not trust our government at all. They vote on their own raises, change the constitution as they see fit to give them more power and us less freedom (defeating most or all of its purpose), Bush is president , and I don't see how we could keep them from faking election vote counts either. Worst of all there is nothing we can do about it. Sure you can vote. But once the person you voted for (assuming he won) gets into office what is there to make him do what he promised? The threat of impeaching I guess but even that is controlled by the government. As long as the big businesses are happy we are powerless. Look at our heathcare. Insurance will not even pay for vitamin suppliments when they are proven to cure certain illnesses in other countries. Why? Because the drug companies can't get rich off of vitamins. They want to make some super quick/expensive drug that has side effects which you have to take more drugs to counter. But they can make money from it.

RougeCat
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 20:36
Well if we consider ur arguement in another sense then the very reason there is war goin on in this world is coz ppl start it. Who r these ppl. Ppl wroking secretly for some giant weapon manufacturing company in the world which entirely depends on the income frm the sales of the weapons. When r these weapons goin to be of demand when there is war in the world. When is there goin to be a war when 2 countries have a turf. So if u c its just an never ending vicious circle tats goin on n we commoners know it but dont want to risk fighting it just for a mere selfish reason of our own safety n comfort.

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David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 21:50
Has anybody here seen Fahrenheit 9/11?

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 22:36
I haven't but I've heard its full of lies. Sounds like the kind of extremist left wing propaganda that gives normal middle-left wing poeople a bad name. I don't agree with War in Iraq and I don't like Bush. But I detest extremist propaganda - left or right.

I'll probably watch it still


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David T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 22:57
Quote: "I haven't but I've heard its full of lies. "


Hah Where did you hear that?

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Ian T
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 23:21
Oh god F9/11 is one of the biggest crocks of crap ever. Moore is a filthy, scummy left-wing extremist billionare who pretends to 'speak for the people' while he sucks up to mega-corperations and supports outsourcing and crap like that. But onto the lies:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Sep 2004 23:40
Do Conspiricies Exist?

Yes, but the problem is... not everything you hear is true, infact the real conspiricies often never see the light of day until long after the fact.

A good example is in the 1950s British Waterways used to sabotage longboats carrying goods, because the government wanted people to use the Trains instead. They saw the canal system as a huge competitor and as such destroyed thousands of boats just to force people to move over to the railway.

At the time it was just a theory of a conspiricy of long-boat operators, and the sabotuers became so good at it that the boats would all sink basically in a single bay they'd purposesly flooded to hold boats. The area was particularly salty which ment even if a long-boat op could retrieve his boat, it would rust very quickly without expensive work.

Documents long since made public have uncovered this was a government plot, and was all true... but at the time, it was just seen as an unfortuate coincidence.

Conspiricies often are the by-product of a woven lies. What makes the paranoia around them so bad is, only a fraction of the lie are true, but all of it is strung together from facts of the evidence which mean, from certain stand points it all appears to be true.

Really that is the whole point in a conspiricy.
'Hiding in plain sight'


Ron Erickson
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 00:16
You can use selective truths and factual ommisions to paint any story that you like of any event. Because a story contains some fact it is very easy to get people to believe it. If it is on a subject that people are passionate about, such as polotics or religion, they will believe ANYTHING to fuel a fire that helps fan the flames of their already set beliefs.
It is EASY to create conspiricy theories. It is also easy to write things off as being just a paranoid conspiracy theory. When trying to sort the truth, it is impossible to be correct all of the time. I use simple math to structure what I believe. That is, the shortest distance between any two points is a straight line. When a story is made up of fact after fact with little room of "filler opinion", then it is easy to see a true event. When you see things really reaching OR start telling a lot story to connect facts, *most* of the time it is not the correct story. It is just someone trying to push the blame of something onto someone that they do not like.

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 01:31
Well said. Which is why:

1. Get at least three perspectives on everything.

2. Don't listen to the people, listen to the arguments.

3. Don't trust-- find out for yourself.

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David T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 01:33
Quote: "Oh god F9/11 is one of the biggest crocks of crap ever. Moore is a filthy, scummy left-wing extremist billionare who pretends to 'speak for the people' while he sucks up to mega-corperations and supports outsourcing and crap like that. "


The thing is, there are plenty of others who argue the other way

Me personally? I think that yes he does have evidence that supports his claims - but then again evidence may also exist to disapprove him.

You could argue that he's only showing one side of the story... well it's the other side that's been shown to us by the media / governments since teh beginning of the invasion

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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 01:36 Edited at: 14th Sep 2004 01:36
No, it hasn't. If the media was as right-wing as Moore wants you to believe, why have they been running stories on why the war is wrong since it started? Why has not a single major news network ran one story on all the flaws in Moore's work, but instead widely hailed it as genius when the facts about it are out there? Why is Kerry always put in a more favorable light than Bush? The US media is liberal, the UK media even more so. You took the time to view two hours of blatant leftist propaganda, why not take the time to read the right-wing response?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 01:48
you should repeat that in the Hilfigure thread WOLF
it applies to so much of internet life nowadays and people should really be more aware and keeping that in mind.

people will always be the same no matter how grown up they believe they are, you see the same patterns in each walk of life. might be called something different to make it sound more grand or prodominant, but at the end of the day...
a spade is just a f**king spade, a JCB hydrolic digger sounds so amazing and it can shift like 10x the amount of dirt in a single scoop.
it is still just moving sodding dirt though, no matter how much more fancy it looks.


Flashing Blade
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 01:58
@ Mouse

When you say UK media is very liberal do you mean newspapers or news TV programmes. I think our news programmes are extremely balanced especialy BBC.
American news channels we can get over here are CNN and Fox. Fox is extremely right wing and incredibly unbalanced.


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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 02:07 Edited at: 14th Sep 2004 02:09
Damnit, whenever I try to copy my list here and press post, it just goes to a blank screen and doesn't send. Why does it do this?

David T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 02:08
Quote: "American news channels we can get over here are CNN and Fox. Fox is extremely right wing and incredibly unbalanced."


My eyes!

Fox is so biased it is almost embarassing to watch

As for CNN, well IMO it's just another american news channel - they talk very fast, have lots of tickers and have adverts (no offence but it's true )

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Damokles
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 02:09
It's funny to read that liberal are leftist.

Here, liberals are on the right of our system, while socialists are leftists.


- Mind the gap -
Jeku
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 02:23
Quote: "The look on Bush's face when he was told about it at that school he was reading to kids at didn't look like the expression of a man thinking "OMG!" - but a look of a man thinking "So THATS what they wanted to blow up - sh*t we shoulda stopped 'em""


Okay I'm not so sure I understand the problem with this. Bush would be an idiot if, after receiving the phone call at the elementary school, he starting running around crying/screaming etc. He remained calm and cool, like a president should.

Ian T
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 03:18
Yeah, I'm sure you can read what someone's thinking through a low quality security camera recording

Quote: " It's funny to read that liberal are leftist.

Here, liberals are on the right of our system, while socialists are leftists.

"


It's all going downhill .

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Neofish
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 03:58
liberal is more in the middle - the people that dont care (well i was told it is )

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Damokles
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Posted: 14th Sep 2004 04:02
Well, I do not agree with that picture, mouse. For several reasons.

It seems to be an american view on politics.
And putting communism and socialism at the same level .... hmmm ... there are a lot differences.
By the way, URSS never reached real communism.

- Mind the gap -

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