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Geek Culture / illegal imigration

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The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 06:42
This is not a debate about illegal imigration, just tell me if after reading this if you think I am a racist.

Mods flamebait???

OK AZ passed prop 200 (now you have to prove that you are a US citizen to recieve any state survices). I am totaly for this.

I made the argument to my class...

about 1.5 billion dollars every year is spent on illegal imigrents at our hospitols.

They thrash our economy by taking money to mexico with out paying any form of tax.

They need to be descuraged from comeing in to the US, or atleast AZ.

They personally have cost my family nearly $2,000,000 because of cars that my dads car dealership owns that illegal uninsured drivers ran into.

The above argument has happened to every car dealer in the state.

50% of our violent crimes (rape and murder) are done by illegals.

They are ALL criminals.


Now they all call me racist to Mexicans (we border Mexico if you don;t know). What do you think?



A girl in my class said that they are not criminals. So I said "Isn't illegal imigration illegal?"

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
Ian T
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 12:20 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 12:20
Quote: "
50% of our violent crimes (rape and murder) are done by illegals.
"


I seriously doubt that, where's your evidence?


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Jeku
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 12:22
I wouldn't call those racist statements if, in fact, they are true (I don't know if they're true)


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GothOtaku
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 13:06
Quote: "They need to be descuraged from comeing in to the US, or atleast AZ.

They personally have cost my family nearly $2,000,000 because of cars that my dads car dealership owns that illegal uninsured drivers ran into.

The above argument has happened to every car dealer in the state.

50% of our violent crimes (rape and murder) are done by illegals."

Those would be the only points that could be contested based on personal issues. However, if you have proof of all this than you're all set and correct. Although, I feel that I need to make a point about the argument saying that the U.S. should discourage people from crossing the border. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants so immigration is in our heritage so we shouldn't discourage it completely but just make it harder for them to enter illegally. If you believe we should put better defences on the border to Mexico for these reasons only then I see no reason to label you a racist because theoretically you'd feel the same way about this if it were the Swedish instead of the Mexicans who were coming over the borders.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 13:15
Indeed. I see no racism here. I think we should welcome legal immigrants. If they can pass all of the requirements. They should at least be able to speak english. As all US citizens should. I have nothing personally against anyone of any nation. If I go to your country (to live) and speak to you I will learn your language. If you can speak english, work, and pay taxes then, Welcome aboard. Glad to have you. There are many immigrants from mexico that work in our plant. They are good workers and will do anything exactly as you tell them too. The only problem is that 95% of them do not speak even basic english and you have to have a translator to tell them anything. This makes them a danger to both themselves and the people around them. I am a maintenance technician. When something breaks they call me. I cannot understand them and they cannot understand me. When I say back away and don't touch anything (this is for my safety while I work on the machine), guess what they do. They stand right over you and try to push every button on the machine to get it working I have to yell at them and run them off and this makes me feel bad. All because they can't speak our national language.

Sparda
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 13:42
I would'nt say that's racists, it's probably true. Worst thing is illegal immigrants take jobs away from American citizens than expect to have our tax payer money go to support their health and education. Any body else confused, cause I sure am


The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 14:07
Quote: ". I think we should welcome legal immigrants."


agreed, my family came here legally, why can;t they?


I did not have my facts and stats infront of me when I made the argument, and I posted the exact argument I used. The main stress was on cost, because that is what prop 200 is all about. So the exact number may be off but I will check to see. I do believe that about 50% of Arizona's and South California's violent crimes are indeed done by illegals.

http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/47/4855
Hmm I was wrong, in 2002 they cost the Federal Government 10 Billion not 1.


I was unable to find any real precentage however this page will give you an idea of what our (arizona's) news looks like. Think of each victim as one day in AZ news.
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

The criminals thing...
Quote: "Both types of illegal immigrants are deportable under Immigration and Nationality Act Section 237 (a)(1)(B) which says:
"Any alien who is present in the United States in violation of this Act or any other law of the United States is deportable.""

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 14:11
and yes my fathers business lost about $2,000,000 because of car accidents caused by illegal alians.

Quote: "Worst thing is illegal immigrants take jobs away from American citizens"


Thats not the least bit of my worries. I know that any business owner consurned with that whole staying legal thing would hire me over an illegal alian.

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
ionstream
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 14:35 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 14:41
That's about as racist as Governor Schwarzneger saying "Indian gaming is ripping off California." By which I mean, not racist at all.

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The Real 87
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 14:38
sorry to waste a whole post on this, but as I german speaker I have to point this out, there is no t in shwarz, or in schwarzneger.

This is my counting program

do: print "87" : loop
Wiggett
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 21:04 Edited at: 6th Nov 2004 21:07
arnie isn't german. from what i recall, but he is from that area.
and as for racism, yeah you didn't praticularly write anythign racist, but it's all about interpretation, and living in America you can say anything and i bet you ten bucks you are bound to run into someone who will call you racist for it. like saying "some crazy spanish dude stabbed my mother in the teeth with a nickel." and someone would say what you are racist cause you are saying that spanish peopel are crazy. even though in fact you are merely stating that a crazy person of spanish heritage stabbed your mother, but lets all forget that your mother's teeth have been moneyed in a harsh way. by teh way, are you anglo? cause thats probably the cause of your probelm :/

empty
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 21:11
Arnie is from Austria and called Schwarzenegger.

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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 21:21
@TR87

Re-read your arguments, you make some implied generalisations. Your arguments do not allow for the many Mexicans who cross the border because they are extremely poor, often through no fault of their own, and come to America looking for work to pay to feed their family back home.

Now, I'm not going to discuss whether they should or should not do this, I'm just encouraging you to look at this from a slightly different persepective.


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Peter H
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 21:34
Quote: "They are ALL criminals."

but i am sure that for lots of them their only crime is illegal immigration...

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zircher
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Posted: 6th Nov 2004 23:05
The illegals are a serious problem. They are destroying the desert*, bankrupting healthcare, and creating all kinds of secondary problems. I don't sweat the jobs thing, most of them are doing jobs that Americans rarely jump for. When I was living there, I had no problem finding entry level jobs.

In my humble opinion, it is the dealers in the flesh trade that need to be hunted down and brought to justice. My simple plan is to pull our troops out of Europe and put them on the Mexican border, in the name of homeland security, of course. [As a bonus move, it would be an economic slap in the face to Germany.]
--
TAZ

* For you non-Arizonans, the southern desert of AZ is a Sonoran desert. It is not a barren wasteland of sand and dust, but a desert full of cacti and other hardy plants. The illegals are inflicting damge that will take many centuries to heal and that's not counting the tons upon tons of trash they leave behind every year. [Yes, the volume of traffic is that bad.]

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Sparda
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Posted: 7th Nov 2004 01:07
Quote: "Thats not the least bit of my worries. I know that any business owner consurned with that whole staying legal thing would hire me over an illegal alian."


Apparently, Walmart disagrees.


The Real 87
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Posted: 8th Nov 2004 01:42
thats why I did not aply at Walmart.


zicher is very correct. And I agree with his plan. Zicher when I run for president you are my VP.

@Peter_ incorrect, of the about 250,000 that were picked up last year about 25,000 of them already had criminal records in America.

This is my counting program
do: print "87" : loop
Major Payn
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 06:41 Edited at: 9th Nov 2004 06:41
It's the exact same way here in Texas! I feel ya! And agree with everything you say! In fact I propose a new proposition, I call it the "big wall proposition" it goes like this, we build a stainless steel wall from california to the tip of Texas, complete with motion detecting turrents, that fire paintballs at illegals that come too close to the wall!

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 06:58
no, no, no:
LANDMINES!!!
That, and just construct the new Berlin Wall right there on the border. Just give it a new name.

Ozzy rules.
\m/
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 07:17
There was a man working in latin america (forget the exact country) and he worked for $2 a day. One pound of meat would cost him $1.50. His family was starving, that was the only job he could et either because he didn't have money growing up to get an education or because of something with the government. His only choice was to travel 1500 miles to get up to Arizona and illegally cross the border and get a janitorial job. He spend all of his life's savings getting there. But now he does not have enough equpiment to get there, and he is not so sure about taking the journey because of another situation.

There was a group travelling up through the desert. They were told the journey would take 4 or 5 hours by their guides (to which they paid thousands of dollars to be led into AZ). Naturally 8 hours had gone by and they were nowhere near the end. One woman started shaking and having breathing problems. The guides gave her medicine (probably illegal stimulants) and her heart sped up so eventually they had to rest in a shady spot to help her calm down and rest. Soon another woman she was travelling with started shaking as well. They sat for about half an hour before the rest of the group decided to go on. Four of the men decided they could not leave the women there alone so they waited, risking their lives and their chance of making it to Phoenix.

The women's conditions were getting worse. Two of the men decided to go on ahead and get help. The remaining two waited. And while they waited the two women died. They tried resuscitation, hydrating them, and all sorts of things but they could not save them. They realized they were in over their head and walked two hours back to a road they had come across and flagged down Border Patrol. Border Patrol got them under shade, gave them water, and began searching for the bodies of the two women. Unfortunately a monsoon hit before they could find them to they returned to base until morning.

The next morning after 4 hours of searching they finally came across the wash where the two women were. One was lying down in a normal sleeping position, except you could see the froth coming out of her mouth and the skin on her limbs burned black. The other woman was in an unnatural rag doll position with similar burns and froth on the mouth. They were able to identify only one of the bodies. She was returned to her family for burial, but the other was given the name of Jane Doe and buried in a public cemetery in southern Arizona.

The men had hung their backpacks on a tree near the wash. A passing group of illegal migrants had apparently came across the bodies because the backpacks had been propped under the women's heads in good will.

Yes, it's illegal. Yes, we can't let everybody in or we'll have a problem. But we can't just let these people starve to death?

Want to solve world hunger? Start by helping illegal migrants so they don't need to be illegal. Allow them to come into the States for a brief period of time to make some money and send it back. Otherwise we'll be just like the policeman on Les Miserables.

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ionstream
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 07:43
Was that a real story, or did you make that up?

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 08:21
Sounds fake to me as there's no possible way we'd know the entirety of that story .

It's also annoying at it's a blatant appeal to pity, a logical fallacy. I could weave a similarly distressing tale about a honest southern family whose lives were destroyed by illegal immegrants with the message that they must be stopped at all costs if I wanted to waste the time. It boils down to meaningless rhetoric without a solid argument backing it though.


Here we go again!
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Rob K
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 08:34
Its not as pointless as you may think - it *does* provide an alternative viewpoint. Which one you want to accept is a matter for factually supported analysis.


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ionstream
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 08:37
Yes, but the chances of that happening are minutely, and it just seemed like details were added to make the story sadder and support his point of view.

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 10:49
True, Rob, there's nothing criminal about providing alternative viewpoints. It seems unfairly presented to me, but that comes down to nitpicking, so I'll leave it.


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Major Payn
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 11:06
Oh come on people! I hear all this stuff like "these people are hard working" and "they just want a better life" well of course they have a better life, because they come over here and get on wellfair and have everything handed to them on a silver platter! Sure some of them are hard working, but take it from me, a year living in America, and they know how to milk the government out of millions, millions of hard workign, tax paying, American people. Oh, and they trash up property! My ranch in south Texas is always getting trashed up by illegals, I find empy cans, bags, and clothing all over the place, they also tear down fences, and break into houses. They are criminals, why do these criminals get better treatment than somebody els who actually payes taxes?

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Ian T
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 11:09
Quote: "well of course they have a better life, because they come over here and get on wellfair and have everything handed to them on a silver platter!"


There you're touching on something.

Tell me, if you were in their position, would you stick with your awful life or go to a much better one in the USA at the cost of possibly a few pennies from other peoples' wallets at your expense? I would certainly chose a better life for me and my family. So what's the problem here? Illegal immigrants? Or welfare?

Quote: "why do these criminals get better treatment than somebody els who actually payes taxes?"


Last I checked taxpayers don't get treated any worse than illegal immigrants.

Quote: "Oh, and they trash up property!"


Welcome to the human race .


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Major Payn
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 11:20 Edited at: 9th Nov 2004 11:25
Quote: "Last I checked taxpayers don't get treated any worse than illegal immigrants."


Are you blind? Illigals that get on Welfare get treated a whole, whole lot better! They get free medicare, they get free food, they pay no taxes, and they now have better chances of getting into colledges. Tax payers get none of these benefits! Tax payers instead, are forced to pay for all these handouts! I shouldn't have to pay for somebody elses lazyness, and I sure as hell shouldn't have to pay so a bunch of criminals can have a better life at my expense! And even if they don't get on welfare, they are still costing tax payers money, because due to the influx of illigal immigrants, we are forced to hire border patrol at a record rate, in order to pay these officers, taxes must be diverted or raised! Illegals are bad! We have to stop them at all
cost!

Quote: "So what's the problem here? Illegal immigrants? Or welfare?"


Both! We should start by totally doing away with welfare, I mean eliminating it completely! But to make things fare, we would tell everybody on welfare that they have 1 year to find a job, and then after that year their benifits are cut. Thats step number 1! Step number 2 is to strongly reinforce the border, with the army, no illigal, we should also threaten mexico into enforcing border policy on their side, if they don't, we threaten to cut them out of Nafta or something.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 16:41 Edited at: 9th Nov 2004 16:43
That was a true story btw.

Lady came in and told our English class about her visit to Mexico. Researching illegal migration for a documentary.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

Y'know, not everybody who applies for a green card gets one. I believe I speak from fairly good experience living in Arizona my whole life. Not once have I ever run into a situation where one of my folks or friends' folks job was threatened by an illegal migrant.

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Peter H
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Posted: 9th Nov 2004 22:31 Edited at: 9th Nov 2004 22:38
Quote: "of the about 250,000 that were picked up last year about 25,000 of them already had criminal records in America.
"

25,000 out of 250,000 is NOT a majority

that leaves 225,000 out of 250,000 without criminal records...

@BCDP-lol great link

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 05:08
When in doubt fall back on a maddox link.



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The Real 87
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 06:49 Edited at: 10th Nov 2004 06:49
Quote: "25,000 out of 250,000 is NOT a majority

that leaves 225,000 out of 250,000 without criminal records... "


Maybe if you understood what I said you would understand. 25,000 of the 250,000 cought last year already had criminal records IN AMERICA.

No break it down. Only an estimated 45 to 55,000 have already been in America, that translates to a majority.



I have heard a million of these stories. But answer me this...

If they knew that they could not make it into the US would they even try? Sealing the border completely would lower the deathrate of Mexican Citizens.

This is my counting program
do: print "87" : loop
The Real 87
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 06:50
Lol you trust Maddox.

This is my counting program
do: print "87" : loop
Ian T
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 09:45
Maddox's simily is flawed, actually. Last I checked illegal immigrants weren't falling into America by accident. However, I do not think they should be treated like they are. It should be all or nothing, and the problem could largely be solved by making it easier to move here legally and get jobs legally.

[center]
forget as boolean : forgive as boolean : if forgive=1 : forget=0 : else : forgive=1 : endif
Major Payn
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 10:00
Quote: "It should be all or nothing, and the problem could largely be solved by making it easier to move here legally and get jobs legally.
"


WHAT! Don't you know mexico's agenda here? They are promoting illigal immigration as a way to capture back the southern states! I see thier plan, and It needs stopping! I don't care if we have to have another alamo, but someone has to stop the invisible invasion. And making it easier for illigals to cross over, is like giving the invaders U-boats! They will sink our economy, by not paying taxes, and will slowely take over public office, I live 20 miles from the border, it's terrible! Why is everybody so blind to the invasion!

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Ian T
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 10:38
I hope you're joking? If not, I'll construct a serious argument in response to that, but... I hope you're joking? Because, you know, stupid people like me are blind to the alien invasion as well-- who knows why

[center]
forget as boolean : forgive as boolean : if forgive=1 : forget=0 : else : forgive=1 : endif
Major Payn
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 11:19 Edited at: 10th Nov 2004 11:22
Well to some extent I was joking, I wrote the paragraph in a sort of shrude way, but what I am saying is this, mexico is slowely by surely taking Texas back, with illigal migration. It's just like what the Anglos did to texas the first time, they started migrating in, and slowely they became a large group, this group then had the power to change things around that they didn't see fit, and pretty soon they totally through out the mixicans from Texas. The same will happen again! Only it's the other way around, the mexicans will grow in texas to the point that it is the leading majority by a huge margin, then they will manipulate the government to give them whatever they want, pretty soon Texas will be completely owned, and operated by Mexican immigrants.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Ian T
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 12:48
Many flaws in your logic...

First and foremost, you're acting like the Mexicans are a hivemind, which is both foolish and insulting. With or without American citizenship they are every bit as individual as we are. There is no reason Mexican immigrants would collectively want to run things like the Mexican government does. And if the thought of Mexican people being the majority in Texas bothers you... what the bloody hell is wrong with that? Sorry, it's simply racism, no two ways about it. There is nothing at all wrong with US citizens, regardless of race, gender or country of origin, trying to make the government like they want. That's democracy. If you don't like it... too bad!

Secondly, you're saying illegal immigrants have the right to vote, which they do not.

Thirdly, you're acting as if Mexican immigrants are moving into the US for their government. They're moving here to get away from it. That's sort of ridiculous. This ties in to point #1.

[center]
forget as boolean : forgive as boolean : if forgive=1 : forget=0 : else : forgive=1 : endif
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 13:17
We can't allow more citizens in though, places will get too crowded. We need to allow them to have temporary jobs ever X months allowing them to make X amount of money. Then they have to go back and wait a bit and let somebody else take their spot for a bit and cycle through.
We can't cut off illegal migrant employment--it's the second biggest influence on Mexican economy, and if their economy is doing terrible now, imagine if we cut them off?

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Van B
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 18:03
Maybe that little notice on the statue of liberty was really the French taking the p***...

''Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore; Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.''

Maybe it should read...

''Give me your labour, just don't expect a bed for the night, give me your dreams, you have no use for them now, give me your lives, and don't expect a thank you, I left my lamp beside the golden door - I hope nobody steals it.''


Van-B


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DivW
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 19:43 Edited at: 10th Nov 2004 19:44
Woop Woop for VanB! As long as i can remember your argument was always the most relavent. That's all i'm going to say.

-Dave

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 00:11
Taking shots at America in general really adds nothing to the conversation at hand...

[center]
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Van B
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 00:32
I was just pointing out the irony of this whole thread. I imagine that a great deal of imigrants feel that way, whether it's agreeable or not, it's probably closer to the truth than the original quote.

Britain has a massive problem with imigration, the same problems the US is having as a matter of fact - difference is that we did'nt invite them .

That post wasn't intended as an anti-US anything, but I suppose it might be considered that way, and for that I appologise for any offence. However, maybe it's about time we had a break from American politics altogether?.


Van-B


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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 01:01
I am a bit defensive-- though I think that's understandable with all the aggression on the net these past months (years?)-- and I probably overreacted, so I apologise for that. It's certainly true that's how a lot of those immigrants feel. I think the situation is very unfair. And it is ironic-- reminds me of how no women were invited to the unveiling of the Statue of Liberty . Still... there are people trying to solve it... but nobody seems to agree on how!

Quote: "However, maybe it's about time we had a break from American politics altogether?"


Heh, been feeling like that for a long time.

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forget as boolean : forgive as boolean : if forgive=1 : forget=0 : else : forgive=1 : endif
Major Payn
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 03:58
I'm not saying the the immigrants have an agenda to take back Texas, But I think the mexican government does! I believe that the mexican government is using illigal migration as a way to get rid of their poor.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Baggers
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 06:57 Edited at: 11th Nov 2004 06:57
VanB..that was..beutiful ! <{edit}the little bit at the end of page 1>

No seriously, i cant say with certainty on this subject being that i ;live in england, but people like to bash imigrants over here too. <WARNING OPINIONATE STAEMENTS FOLLOW>
The problem really is yes there are imigrants that enter the coutry do bugger all and leach the system, yes they are scum and should be kicked out, but as we kick them out we should also be kicking out the lazy buggers who were born in that country and still dont work and leach off the government and raise the taxes. I really dont mind any immigrant who is willing to pull his wait wether be earning 3p an hour or not, if they wish to do that then at least they are trying, which is much better than some natives to the coutry who do nothing atall.
Ok im done
Baggers
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 07:08
they should all be killed

bleep bleep
Major Payn
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 07:26
We need to take a pointer from the ancient chinese, they had a seriouse immigration problem, but they fixed it by building a huge freakin wall! America should do the same, build a 50 foot, electrafied wall from california to Texas! Complete with non lethal motion sensing gun enplacements! We have to many people in america already, we don't need more!

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problems, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problems anymore.
Ilya
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 10:54
The simple answer is thus:

We bomb all of Mexico and use it as a giant dumpyard. I doubt many people would agree with that, so...

We build a wall 100 ft high that borders Mexico. Except, the wall is a car that runs over Mexico. Or...

Build the 100ft wall and arm it with M240 thermal-vision celing guns. If anything warm gets with 1 mile of the border, it's shot and killed.
Then, we build a bridge from Mexico to the US around the wall, so USers can get in and out of Mexico and so can Mexicans, but not illeagal immagrants. When the wall is above sea, you'll see a huge barracks hanging from the bridge that has latters going up to the bridge. Thermal-vision video cameras are spying on that part of the bridge. There will always be 10 men up on the bridge. Anyone coming from Mexico either shows a passport or gets shot and thrown off the bridge. All men are armed with: Heavy armor, helment, and G11.

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ionstream
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Posted: 11th Nov 2004 11:02
Another pointless post by Ilya.

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