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Dark GDK / DarkSDK Licenses - Define them for me, please?

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Argon Knight
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 06:10
OK, the other topic is too big, so I'm starting another one.

What exactly, in newbie terms, do the licenses for DarkSDK mean?

1) freeware game is...? I'm guessing this lets me write little toy solitaire games to give to my brother to play with.

2) A shareware game is...? In a traditional sense of the term, I would write a game, load it on my website, let my customers download a trial version, the send me their credit card so I can send them a unlock key, or unlocked version. I suppose this covers this can cover a lot of options.

but...

The EULA says I can write games, not level editors. (its legalese, english is hard enough to read)


3) So then what is a commercial games define as? like MMPOG's? Over the counter sales ( if I ever get lucky and publish)

4) what is the price of a commercial licenses? I'm don't care to buy the source code to the DarkSDK.

5) Why is non-game applications outside the normal license for the SDK?

6) Are the different versions limited somehow to know what type of game I'm compiling? for example, how would the sdk libs know I'm writing a freeware game or a commercial game?
David T
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 06:50
Freeware - distribute for no fee.

Shareware - sell over internet only.

Commercial - sell anywhere.

I think that's what Mike said, check the topic in General Discussion.

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Gen
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 08:38
How much does the commercial cost?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:55
Quote: "1) freeware game is...? I'm guessing this lets me write little toy solitaire games to give to my brother to play with."


Freeware - any game you make that you don't charge for. Could be 'toy solitaire' if you are that way inclined, but it's up to you.

Quote: "2) A shareware game is...? In a traditional sense of the term, I would write a game, load it on my website, let my customers download a trial version, the send me their credit card so I can send them a unlock key, or unlocked version. I suppose this covers this can cover a lot of options."


That is pretty much it. A game where you have a trial version available and they can buy the full version on-line.

Quote: "The EULA says I can write games, not level editors. (its legalese, english is hard enough to read)"


Correct.

Quote: "3) So then what is a commercial games define as? like MMPOG's? Over the counter sales ( if I ever get lucky and publish)"


Something sold in a store via a publisher.

Quote: "4) what is the price of a commercial licenses? I'm don't care to buy the source code to the DarkSDK."


As yet un-decided, email Rick if you have a specific need for this (which, right now, no-one will, because no-one actually has DarkSDK so cannot have made a game with it yet that needs selling commercially) - otherwise, wait until early next year when we'll announce it.

Quote: "5) Why is non-game applications outside the normal license for the SDK?"


Because, technically, you could write DBPro (or A.N. other game creation language / product) with it, and we don't want that.

Cheers,

Rich

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David T
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 16:57
Why can't we make level editors?

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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 17:16
Quote: "Because, technically, you could write DBPro (or A.N. other game creation language / product) with it, and we don't want that."


I guess that leaves out my GameBasic app then Mike already said it was okay to make a language using DarkSDK, but now this contradicts it


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 17:31
Quote: "Mike already said it was okay to make a language using DarkSDK, but now this contradicts it"


Yeah it does, see my reply to you in the other thread. Mike didn't read the whole EULA (and I can't blame him! it's massive!) so sorry for the confusion.

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Don Malone
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 19:56
Maybe I scanned it to quick but it looked to me like it said you could not create software to create other software, I did not take that to mean level editors were out of the question even though they are still a grey area.

Now that so many games need a level editor to be complete.

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Morcilla
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 20:17 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 20:18
Hi there,
I guess there is no problem with educational or simulation programs.
Although the EULA says,

"This license is not permitted for use in commercial games or non-game applications."

"non-game applications" refers to development applications, RIGHT?

There are many kind of things we can do with the Dark Game SDK, and that aren't games, like media players, demos or even text editors!

We still can do that, although they are not games.
Am I right?

Thanks.
Freddix
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 20:25
Quote: "
Quote: "The EULA says I can write games, not level editors. (its legalese, english is hard enough to read)"
"


Why didn't you limited that to not programming langage. ???
Because with that .. I can't use it for X4 Game.exe ...
so ... I will not buy DarkSDK if I can't use it to improve X4 game performances ...

REally deceived with that !

Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 21:17 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 21:17
Quote: ""non-game applications" refers to development applications, RIGHT?"


Right.

Quote: "There are many kind of things we can do with the Dark Game SDK, and that aren't games, like media players, demos or even text editors! We still can do that, although they are not games."


Correct.

Quote: "REally deceived with that !"


Deceived would be NOT telling you about it. We on the other hand make it explicitly clear.

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Peter H
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 21:38
how about we can make level editors just not distribute them...that way we could develop games faster, and not make money by selling DBPro's engine...

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 22:05
Peter - the license isn't restricting what you can make with it. It's what you can SELL or give away with it. You can make all manner of tools, apps, aids etc that you use to build your final game. You just cannot sell game making applications. For example you couldn't make your own version of T3DGM or FPSC or DB (etc) using DGSDK, that would be in breach of the license. In those instances, contact us to talk about a commercial license.

Cheers,

Rich

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walaber
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 22:33
I would imagine that if you made a game with DarkSDK that used some kind of custom level format, it wouldn't be a problem to include a level-editor (also written with DarkSDK) for users to create levels for your game... am I wrong here?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 22:39
You're not wrong. The problem is only if you try and make a game-making application.

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walaber
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 22:42
fine and dandy!

I must admit I like the possibilities of DarkSDK! I think writing a set of OOP wrapper classes would be interesting, but extremely time consuming

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Peter H
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 23:26 Edited at: 1st Dec 2004 23:27
yeah...i'll probably get DarkSDK as a step in-between C++ and DBPro...

that way i can still use DBPro for handling the 3D side of things(instead of working out Direct X in C++ ) while i get used to C++'s syntax and OOP

i just wish us DBPro owners had a larger discount on the FreeWare license...(maybe %30??) i wouldn't mind paying full price for the ShareWare/Commercial licenses...

"We make the worst games in the universe."

Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Dec 2004 23:35
Quote: "i wouldn't mind paying full price for the ShareWare/Commercial licenses..."


Understood - but 95% of you won't ever get that far (sorry, but it's true!)

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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 00:14
@Rich

I can understand why the EULA forbids us from selling level editors etc. However if we were to create a shareware game and then include a level editor or other dev. tools as a freebie with it in order to improve the replayability of the game, would that be covered by the shareware license?


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blanky
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 00:59
I get the feeling that 'private builds' (stuff you keep to yourself) would be OK, 'cuz you wouldn't be selling/giving them away, but would it be okay for me to make a freeware 3D modeller?

Or, as mentioned above, a game with a built-in level editor?

(Side note: I'm not too good with C++, but I get the feeling it won't be too hard for me to make a VB.NET wrapper - that okay too?)

IanM
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 01:50
Quote: "(Side note: I'm not too good with C++, but I get the feeling it won't be too hard for me to make a VB.NET wrapper - that okay too?)"


Possibly true, but it would be against the EULA even if you give it away (check out 1.4 in either of the EULA's).

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Argon Knight
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 01:57
What about my 6th question?

Quote: "6) Are the different versions limited somehow to know what type of game I'm compiling? for example, how would the sdk libs know I'm writing a freeware game or a commercial game? "
Freddix
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 03:33 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2004 03:41
Quote: "
Peter - the license isn't restricting what you can make with it. It's what you can SELL or give away with it. You can make all manner of tools, apps, aids etc that you use to build your final game. You just cannot sell game making applications. For example you couldn't make your own version of T3DGM or FPSC or DB (etc) using DGSDK, that would be in breach of the license. In those instances, contact us to talk about a commercial license.
"

so, you make money with our money but we can't make money with your tools ... Sorry but I really think that is too restrictive !!! more to this, the shareware is expensive and we can't do what we want with it ! IT'S A TRUE NEGATIVE POINT !
If you make it expensive, then you must allow more things ... If you don't want to allow more things .. lower the price then .

gdogg2k
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 03:49
OK, so reading the EULA, it doesnt restrict making/distributing level editors, because on their own they are not game creation software on there own? is this right? Also does the Freeware version of the SDK have n e kind of watermark or n e thing?

Regards
Da Dogg
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 04:01
No watermark on the freeware version of the SDK.

Mike
gdogg2k
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 04:13
OK, so if i purchase a freeware license for now, i can make the game, make a level edit, chuck em up my site and jobs's a good 'en

Sounds pretty sweet, now just gotta sweet talk the mrs
that'll be harder than decoding the EULA

Although 1 thing, i dont think that people should restricted to games only, i dont see the harm in making apps as long as they dont create games them selves and the dgSDK is credited int eh about info

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Da Dogg
Freddix
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 04:24 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2004 04:26
I can't make software I want to sell ! it's the problem !
said by Rich :
Quote: "
For example you couldn't make your own version of T3DGM or FPSC or DB (etc) using DGSDK"

X-quad Editor is a game development package a bit like FPSC and T3DGM ... so I can't use DarkSDK to improve x4 ...
The true problem is here ... and for 200$ the shareware version ... it's a bit too restrictive !

But I'll try contact Rick about :
Quote: "
that would be in breach of the license. In those instances, contact us to talk about a commercial license"

but I'm fear to hear something like "we want xx% of all sells" ...

Preben
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 05:44
I was really looking forward to this SDK, but with a EULA like this it do limit the usage of this SDK.

EULA 1.1 says we are "ONLY" allowed to make games.

Quote: "
EULA 1.4: For the purposes of this Agreement the term “Game” means an interactive entertainment software game whose sole purpose is to entertain its user without further modification and which is made using the Software in accordance with its associated documentation.
"


EULA 1.4 Defines games as only "GAMES".

No matter how you read this EULA you can "only" make games, AND NOT: media players, level editors , 3D modellers , viewers , texture tools, screen savers, wrappers, terrain editors or any other tool / utility. ( Yes i know you are allowed to make them for personal use, but are not allowed to distribute any of your work, Well! )

Richard Davey:
Quote: "
You're not wrong. The problem is only if you try and make a game-making application.
"


Then change the EULA to say that.

You can tell us here on the forum that it's ok to make thise tools but a EULA is a EULA, i might use 1 year to finish a 3D Modeller just to find out that Richard Davey is not at "thegamecreators" anymore or "thegamecreators" was sold to another company, where would that leave me ? ( "but Richard said." ).

Richard Davey:
Quote: "
Understood - but 95% of you won't ever get that far (sorry, but it's true!)
"


I would never purchase / start making anything with the SDK before i was sure the license would enable me to distribute my work.

I would also like to know a price for a license that allow me to distribute "Anything" (freeware or shareware) just not a "T3DGM or FPSC or DB".

best regards Preben Eriksen, Vonna.com
gdogg2k
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 05:55
Well i'm thinking of putting my order in tomorrow, but really need to know about making a level ed. i dont want to have to purchase dark game SDK for the game (as i'd rather stick to c++) and DBPro for the lev. ed. as i want to be able to give it free with my free game.....

Regards
Da Dogg
Freddix
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 06:04
@Preben : I agree ..

why shouldn't you simply use :
"You are not authorized to create programming language using DarkSDK" ... This should ensure that nobody will create a DBPro 2.0 or other thinks like this ...

1tg46
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 06:33
In the Eula it says that it can only be installed on one computer. Why is this different from DBP, which you can install on multiple computers(within reason) as long as you are the only one using the software. Because I have VS.NET installed on two computers.


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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 10:06 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2004 10:28
I believe it says you can install it on multiple computers (I could be wrong) BUT you could not multiple copies of them running at the same time. i.e. you have a lib of all your files and you have multiple people accessing the same files. I think the point is that only one person can be using the lib at one time (the owner of the lib) regardless of which machine you are accessing it from.

What I cannot understand is why people are complaining about the price. They want ¨more discount¨ or ¨free¨ becasue they already bought DBP. Well, they bought DBP with the full understanding of what is going to provide you, and you don´t HAVE to buy the DGSDK.

I think the DGSDK if geared to more ¨professional¨ companies (not that there aren´t quite a few talented people out there). I mean, if you cannot make $200.00 back from your game, what is the point of making it in the first place. It´s $200! Not even a car payment, heck not even a good date money!

Since the staff of TGC are still going to support DBP with updates, what´s the problem if you already have it?

As for the licence, how many times is it going to be mentioned that for the ¨freeware¨ you can make any game, media player, etc you want as long as you don´t charge any money for it. The ¨shareware¨ is the same code as the ¨freeware¨ (no watermark, no time limits, nothing), just your allowed to sell you games online and not in a retail market (i.e. a publisher puts it in WalMart).

For commercial markets (such as the WalMart) expect to pay a royality. It goes without saying. I know quite a few people that stroll into CompUSA and stand there until a person ask them can I help you and they say ¨no, just looking at that game which I helped write¨. Retail markets are a pain in the ass to get into, and you make VERY LITTLE (trust me, I know). You make more with a online sales than in Retail if you are small company.

As for the level editors, I believe Rich as already stated multiple times that if your game needs a level editor and it is used for your game, it´s ok. Just don´t go trying to make Valve´s Hammer (which in turn is a game creation tool, which is not allowed)

It´s simple. Buy the DGSDK ¨freeware¨, make a game, if you get it done, upgrade the licence and sell it. How hard is that to understand? $54 - $60 for the ¨freeware¨ and then when you ready to sell it an extra $140 or so? Come on. As I stated, if you not serious at making $200, stick with DBP.

Ok, enough ranting. Bed time..

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ZioNz
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 10:54
If i can't make a game-making application using the DARKSDK, can i use the standard DBPRO for doing something like?

-
Great Knight
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 10:56
I am not worried about the EULA. If I wanted to make a Level Editor I would not use Dark SDK. I would just program it out in Java or C++ with out the Dark SDK or heck make a notepad version of it with a program that encyrpts it. Then I would have a special format to use for my game and then others could use my level editor which was not made with Dark SDK.

As for Media players. mmmmm You can make a music game which allows you to click the notes that cross the screen. And you get points for cliking them and let the players load the background music for them to listen to that way you will have a cooler game. j/k.

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gdogg2k
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 15:55
Sweet, well i guess i Order today then
Time to tunr the charm on a ask the wife (she hates me spending money on my computer)

Regards
Da Dogg
Erick G
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 16:10
gdogg2k, it is really worth it.
gdogg2k
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2004 19:32
just ordered

Regards
Da Dogg
Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2004 07:20 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2004 07:25
TGC is so cheap*

*"Don't you just hate it when somebodies like 'man i want my $100 back!'...i mean common man! stop being so cheap!

when i go to the order form it never shows the DBPro discount (i went as far as i could without giving away money )

[edit] nvm i got it to work! ...i will soon have DarkSDK for only $48.7

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Necronos
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2004 08:17
Little question: ( don't know if it has been asked or answered )

Any chance for a COM or better .NET version?
As I totally dislike C++ and only use C# I would be happy to use it there as actually Truevision 3D is the only 3D engine I can use as .libs ( as I got with NGC C++ and other engines ) are completely useless.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2004 19:37
Quote: "Any chance for a COM or better .NET version?"

Ask Mike

Quote: "As I totally dislike C++ and only use C# "

How odd...

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Necronos
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Posted: 4th Dec 2004 13:00
why odd?
i just hate the whole insecure pointer chaos C++ is creating.
A behavior as that of C++ is totally outdated but the language never evolved further after its initial chaos implementation.
Erick G
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Posted: 4th Dec 2004 14:03
Yet all the major game companies use C/C++, now THAT is odd. Dont you think ?
Great Knight
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Posted: 4th Dec 2004 14:48
Those Insecure Pointers you mention that can cause memory leaks are the programmers fault, but if the programmer used the pointers right you can have some good speed. I would not agree that all major compianies use C++/C.

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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Dec 2004 18:16
Quote: " Yet all the major game companies use C/C++"


Are you sure about that? I know of several major game companies that have already made the switch to C#


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IanM
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Posted: 4th Dec 2004 20:35
Lets not get into a language p*ssing contest please.

Stick to two rules in C++ and you'll never get a leak:
- Use references whereever possible.
- Always use smart pointers when a pointer in unavoidable

Use the boost shared or scoped pointers for very good implementations

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