Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Look's like BlitzMax was released just a few days ago!

Author
Message
Dr Who
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th May 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN. USA.
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 07:14 Edited at: 12th Dec 2004 07:19
Look's like the Blitz guys finally released their BlitzMax product! Anybody here interested in buying that product as well? Just curious to ask?!



Here's the link to there webpage:

http://www.blitzbasic.com/newsletter/newsletter.php?issue=13

Best Regards,

DoctorWho...
OSX Using Happy Dude
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 07:28 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 22:45
I can see it causing DBPro a few problems when the 3D part comes out for Windows, if its pretty much bug free, and if DirectX 9 is used...

Hopefully it will give Mike and Lee an extra incentive to do a really good job with P6.

Beware the Christmas... The fattener... The drunkard...
Dr Who
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th May 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN. USA.
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 07:36
BlitzMax isn't using Direct X 9, It's using the newer OpenGL version instead! Not to knock DBPro in any way as I find DBPro to be a fantastic development language. However though, Blitz Research has worked on getting BlitzMax to become a reality for quite some time to come. And now it's finally here! BlitzMax was developed to be as flexible & almost as powerful as C++, And plus giving BlitzMax the ability to use OOP in their language. Im' going to purchase it to see just how far it can really go! But having the ability to code in basic and it also being an OOP as well is a very nice comodity indeed! There will most certainly be a boocoo of 3D engine modules created for it though! I do think that BlitzMax will give DBPro a run for it's money, But it isn't going to put DBPro out of business anytime soon though!

Best Regards,

DoctorWho...
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 08:09
Quote: "Look's like the Blitz guys finally released their BlitzMax product! Anybody here interested in buying that product as well? Just curious to ask?!"


Been more than a few days.

Quote: " BlitzMax isn't using Direct X 9, It's using the newer OpenGL version instead!"


Yes, and No.
BlitzMax Macintosh has been confirmed to use OpenGL for 3D. BlitzMax Windows, has been hinted towards having another DirectX pipeline... because everything can be developed as a single interface rather than several different interfaces bidding for compatibility.
(OpenGL/AL/ML/SDL)

Quote: "Not to knock DBPro in any way as I find DBPro to be a fantastic development language. However though, Blitz Research has worked on getting BlitzMax to become a reality for quite some time to come. And now it's finally here! BlitzMax was developed to be as flexible & almost as powerful as C++, And plus giving BlitzMax the ability to use OOP in their language. Im' going to purchase it to see just how far it can really go! But having the ability to code in basic and it also being an OOP as well is a very nice comodity indeed! There will most certainly be a boocoo of 3D engine modules created for it though! I do think that BlitzMax will give DBPro a run for it's money, But it isn't going to put DBPro out of business anytime soon though!"


Blitz has always been technically superior as a language. This hasn't stopped DarkBASIC / Professional being the top-dog of Bedroom Coder Software.

Retail is nothing about what is best, but who can get the best reputation and coverage.


GothOtaku
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Nov 2003
Location: Amherst, MA, USA
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 08:46
Yeah, I'm considering getting it. Since it always has been a bit faster than DBPro for the smaller stuff and with the new OpenGL stuff 3D should be just as easy plus cross platform. However, if you want to use something in DirectX without messing with libraries or anything then you're stuck (assuming they don't add DirectX support for the Windows version).
Ilya
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Aug 2003
Location:
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 09:01
I might get it next year.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 10:32
Hmmm--- it appears to have a great license. When you buy for one platform (i.e. Windows), you get the other 2 for free (Mac, Linux). The code can be compiled for all three platforms. Looks pretty interesting.


--[GameBasic - Coming Soon]-- ^^^ banner generously designed by TheBigBabou
MikeS
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 11:06
I fear for PureBasic if BMax can get a 3D module before PB gets its update. Nevertheless, I think PureBasic and DBP+DarkSDK will hold their grounds very well against BMax. I just want to see more of what they have to offer. Lots of exciting releases lately for us programmers.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
BearCDPOLD
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 14:00
I'll probably end up buying it. Was considering getting Blitz3d for a while since it always seemed to run faster. I started with DB instead because it was easier to understand, but now that I've been doing DB for a while, Blitz makes more sense.

It's a juggle between BlitzMax and DarkSDK!

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
Gel douche
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 12th Dec 2004 19:44
What if TGC released a version of the darkbasicpro engine as blitzmax 3d module, that would be funny. Theres nothing to say they can't.
DrakeX
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 11:37
i'll do it!

funny, it's been a few days now, and all the bug reports on the BMX forums are either IDE-related or .. well, yeah, that's about it. things are looking quite good.

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 16:29
I'll consider the purchase once the Windows version is released. However, since I've been using C# it's hard to go to anything else :p


--[GameBasic - Coming Soon]-- ^^^ banner generously designed by TheBigBabou
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 16:51
Personally for me, I'll wait until someone knocks me for six with a tech demo or game made in it, same thing I said for Blitz3D years ago and still waiting.

I mean, there's so much that people are just accepting about it without question - like it's gonna be very stable and bug free, how can we tell?. Without a pallatable windows version, we don't know what it is - and without a 3D engine, we don't know anything about it.

Something that puzzles me a bit too, is why is it out on the mac first?. Is it that developing on the mac needs less debugging than on PC? or something like that - anyway it strikes me that the mac and PC versions will be different animals internally, so can't even judge it by the mac version.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 17:10
Quote: "Something that puzzles me a bit too, is why is it out on the mac first?. Is it that developing on the mac needs less debugging than on PC? or something like that - anyway it strikes me that the mac and PC versions will be different animals internally, so can't even judge it by the mac version."


Oh, that's a simple one to anwser. It all comes down to the fact that Marc bought himself a G4, tinkered with development and got hooked.

Can't say I blame him, you ever programmed for a PPC? anything past the 4xx Series has Software Intructions, which are just like the most awesomestest things evor(sic)!!

They might be different internally speaking, but provided Marc created an Intermediate Assembly, it should work identically between machines; just the register usage would really change rather than the data interaction.

It's how .NET is stable on both x86 and PPC Systems.

Personally I've been continually impressed by Blitz3D, not so much what is made with it. But the language & engine is quite impressive and more than stable enough, not to mention quite easy to define and extend without any real limitations.
BlitzMax seems to take it a step further and declare independance as a language like PureBASIC is.. not to mention much better Object Orientated commmands.

Thing is, the problem that always put me off the language is still there... well 2 problems.
The horribly amature IDE (makes me feel like i'm using a language from 2decades ago), and the language syntax style.

Apart, I think I could put up with the language enough to use it... but together just makes me chringe.


Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 18:03
Quote: "Oh, that's a simple one to anwser. It all comes down to the fact that Marc bought himself a G4, tinkered with development and got hooked.

Can't say I blame him, you ever programmed for a PPC? anything past the 4xx Series has Software Intructions, which are just like the most awesomestest things evor(sic)!!

They might be different internally speaking, but provided Marc created an Intermediate Assembly, it should work identically between machines; just the register usage would really change rather than the data interaction."


Has Marc actually asked how many existing Blitzers a) Own a mac, b) Have the money to buy one, or c) Would consider buying one?.
It's a little irritating how people go on about it being cross platform - yet it's really only cross platform because Marc wanted to develop on the mac, it's not like it's a major business decision to suddenly support macs. I just don't swallow the whole intermediate assembly bit, your making out that all is required are a few register changes, which is complete twaddle - I've never developed on the mac, but I know it's not a simple case of swapping registers!.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Chris K
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:02
Quote: "Writing an OpenGL program is now as simple as:

bglCreateContext 640,480

While Not KeyHit( KEY_ESCAPE )

glClear GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT

glBegin GL_TRIANGLES
glVertex2i 0,1
glVertex2i 1,-1
glVertex2i -1,-1
glEnd

bglSwapBuffers

Wend"


I'm sorry what?

I'm a little confused as to what the market is for Blitz Max. Fairly experienced coders who can't be bothered to use C++?

I simply can't be bothered with commands like "bglSwapBuffers" unless I'm coding something fairly complex.

Until they make Blitz look and feel simple it won't sell like DBPro.
Gel douche
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:05
The reason Mark (not marc) released it on the mac first is that he's using the smaller user base as testers. Once he's sure there are no show stopping bugs he'll release the pc version. It's as simple as that.

Just so you know only the very core stuff and compilers are written for their respective os, blitzmax itself is written in blitmax, just like the ide.

Also it apparently supports C and C++ so you don't need to use the basic syntax.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:05
Quote: "Has Marc actually asked how many existing Blitzers a) Own a mac, b) Have the money to buy one, or c) Would consider buying one?."


nope.. there is a secondary reason for it though. it's to prevent alot of the "general" people from giving language feedback.
he wants to make sure all of the core language bugs are squished prior to general release.

Macintosh version really is only 2-3% of the entire Blitz market, and most people who have Macintosh, have them because they're useful not because they're just something to play games on.
So while it remains Mac only the team generally get better feedback from a public release.

Quote: "It's a little irritating how people go on about it being cross platform - yet it's really only cross platform because Marc wanted to develop on the mac, it's not like it's a major business decision to suddenly support macs."


BlitzMax is still in heavy development. It was always planned to be Multi-Platform, in this sense he can get rid of all the kinks without a market of whiners barraging his inbox with "why doesn't the 3d engine do such'n'such"..

Look at TGC, while sure they're making top dollar. Fact is the language isn't worth it, and they know it. Hense why they're constantly trying to make the new products everyones focus.

Quote: "I just don't swallow the whole intermediate assembly bit, your making out that all is required are a few register changes, which is complete twaddle - I've never developed on the mac, but I know it's not a simple case of swapping registers!."


Underneath... no, it isn't a case of simply altering what register goes where and what operation is performs when. But that is the point in the Intermediate Assembly.

If you want to think of it in terms of say DirectX and OpenGL through an intermediate api; when the user does something like create a new object.



That would produce a simple triangle,

DirectX:


OpenGL:


Both codes produce the exact same result, because of how the compiler would work, the intermediate language means depending on what system you choose to compile for determins the end result code. Exact same stuff though.


Gel douche
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:13
Even if Blitzmax is the better product it will never do as well as dbpro since BRL are very poor at marketing, even their site is bad.

If they jazzed it up some and put all that crap TGC have on their dbpro home page, add some buzz words etc and find them selves a good publisher and international distributer i think they'd do very well.
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:17
Ahh, cool - so they travelled forward into the future, used a bug free version of Blitzmax, and used it to write the beta IDE and Blitzmax itself. Amazing bit of impossible work from Sibly there.

If it uses C++, and C, and BASIC, and works on Mac and PC and is completely bug free, are we to assume that Marc is that damn good that he can make a language like that with nothing - not even a C++ compiler.

Anyone else have a problem swallowing this? - since when did this place turn into Blitzcoder?

Frankly, I see absolutely no benefit in using Blitzmax over learning C++ - it'd probably be easier to pick up C++ because there's so many tutorials and books, and Dev C++ is free, Blitz3D alone is damn expensive, anyone fancy mentioning how much Blitzmax will cost?.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:49
Quote: "Frankly, I see absolutely no benefit in using Blitzmax over learning C++ - it'd probably be easier to pick up C++ because there's so many tutorials and books, and Dev C++ is free, Blitz3D alone is damn expensive, anyone fancy mentioning how much Blitzmax will cost?. "


$80 (Current Exchange = £40), which gives you all 3 version due for release. ( Linux / Windows / MacOSX )

The Syntax is Blitz3D evolved, sort of like the difference between C and C++.

Quote: "Ahh, cool - so they travelled forward into the future, used a bug free version of Blitzmax, and used it to write the beta IDE and Blitzmax itself. Amazing bit of impossible work from Sibly there.

If it uses C++, and C, and BASIC, and works on Mac and PC and is completely bug free, are we to assume that Marc is that damn good that he can make a language like that with nothing - not even a C++ compiler."


What an odd statement. It is quite obviously initially programmed in GCC, probably using GAS for processor specifics; Depending on how he's created the compiler really depends on how it works.

Something you have to remember here is Marc has been creating compiled languages for almost 20years now, on numerous machines. While obviously he can't create it without a base language, that can be used as a starting point.

NASM is OpenSource and developed to be compiled using ANSI C; NASM itself can be altered to compile for any given platform, in such it can be used to create a compiler with, for another language on any other system. The limitation to a languages abilities comes from how it compiles in the first place. Everything after all are just numbers interpreted by the OS, which in-turn are interpreted by the BIOS, again in turn are hardware interpreted by the CPU.

It is a whole chain of interpretation of a value.


Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 19:49
Quote: "BlitzMax Macintosh has been confirmed to use OpenGL for 3D. BlitzMax Windows, has been hinted towards having another DirectX pipeline... because everything can be developed as a single interface rather than several different interfaces bidding for compatibility"


It is OpenGL all the way as far as I understand. Mark has never hinted that the 3D module will use DirectX. OpenGL would be far easier to code for in BlitzMAX as well.

Quote: "are we to assume that Marc is that damn good"


Mark dammit, he's not French

Quote: "What if TGC released a version of the darkbasicpro engine as blitzmax 3d module, that would be funny. Theres nothing to say they can't."


I would seriously consider doing that just for the comedy value - It wouldn't be that hard either. I already have a utility which spits out C++ code to interface with a DBPro plugin, I would just need to MAXify the syntax.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 20:36
Raven,
That was based on this statement by Gel:

Quote: "Just so you know only the very core stuff and compilers are written for their respective os, blitzmax itself is written in blitmax, just like the ide."


Now Blitzmax being written in Blitzmax is damn impressive, but unfortunately not possible. It might sound strange, but I'm going on experience and common sense here - not blind faith.

Frankly, the GL code I've seen for Blitzmax is much more like C++ than basic - it's basically the code that you'd use in C++ but in a different format. Personally I'd rather dig into Dev C++ GL stuff than accept that syntax as a basic language. I know that's the nature of it, and it's probably nice and easy for people who have used GL engines before - but does anyone actually want to code like the examples they've shown?, frankly - just give me a freakin polygon!.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Kevin Picone
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 20:52 Edited at: 10th Apr 2022 16:56
Van,

Quote: " I just don't swallow the whole intermediate assembly bit, your making out that all is required are a few register changes, which is complete twaddle - I've never developed on the mac, but I know it's not a simple case of swapping registers!."


While your right it's not that easy .. That is pretty much how a multi target compiler needs to work though. I.e. Rather than generate platform specific binaries (which is moronic anyway, for a huge list of reasons . Top of the list #1. Register Optimization..) the compiler would produce a byte code binary/source which is static, platform to platform.. This standard output is then translated to C/Asm on the target machine. So retargeting the package is really in the translators layer, not the compiler.

Another alternative is skip the byte code step and generate C directly from the compiler... like that "basic to C" compiler does. But i think it'd be better to go Source -> byte code then Byte-code to C/ASM

So to make the command modules portable their written in BMX. So their not machine specific their language / bmx api specific.


Convert BlitzBASIC BlitzPlus Blitz3D to PlayBASIC with BlitzBASIC 2 PlayBASIC Convertor.


PlayBASIC To HTML5/WEB - Convert PlayBASIC To Machine Code
Anomaly
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Jan 2004
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:30
Quote: "Now Blitzmax being written in Blitzmax is damn impressive, but unfortunately not possible. It might sound strange, but I'm going on experience and common sense here - not blind faith."


BCX does it, not to mention others exist.
Logically someone would write their compiler in a pre-existing language, then when its stable enough port the source code to the new compiler.
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:37
UW,
Yeah, I suppose if it can generate C code first, then that would make sense - however the point I'm trying to make is that if someone codes for a GL engine on the mac, it's not gonna compile and work on PC - and that's the most obvious route - it would need engines supporting all 3 platforms to be made the same, using the same syntax and media formats, I'm not convinced that this is even in the pipeline. I suppose that it would be feasible to use libraries of code, like instead of doing all that crud to create a GL poly, you could just call a function that would do that in whatever engine (like each engine has an include file with standard functions in it) - then the function itself could be platform specific.

This whole cross platform thing has been done before, someone made a transportable engine that would potentially support any platform in C++ - this was years ago when there was a good 5 or 6 major computer platforms (PC, Mac, ST, Amiga, Archimedes etc etc), and it got absolutely nowhere. Things like this should be a developers dream, but I'm very dubious about it deliverying what it promises without any proof.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:42
Anomaly,
How is it possible for Blitzmax to be written using Blitzmax?

Explain please.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:43
ah, alrighty heh.. well that also was an odd statement by Gel.

maybe he's getting confused that the libraries for it are developing inside the language.
i know what you mean about OpenGL, it's actually why I generally don't use it... everything is so long winded, while DirectX looks more complex from the example shown, alot of it is one-time setup code. That's why I prefer using it, you can setup something and forget rather than recoding the exact same bloody thing you did before with minor changes.

But still for a basic language what you want to do is take that the next step and remove the setup code.
(As Crystal GNA, was showing.. despite it not being basic still simplifies things)

Quote: "BCX does it, not to mention others exist."

No it doesn't. BCX requires the GCC Compiler, it's just a translator for C++; not even a compiler in it's own right.

Quote: "Logically someone would write their compiler in a pre-existing language, then when its stable enough port the source code to the new compiler."


Depends on how in-depth the new language is, and compiler operations can do.
C++ for example was programmed in C, so the new compiler was programming it's own upgrade language. Trying to code machine code without an assembler is a pain in the ass, makes my head spin to thing some poor bugger had to do it years ago.


Anomaly
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Jan 2004
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:47
Quote: "Anomaly,
How is it possible for Blitzmax to be written using Blitzmax?"


If you already have a stable blitzmax compiler, whats stopping you porting the source and writing future updates in it?
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:57
Quote: "Yeah, I suppose if it can generate C code first, then that would make sense - however the point I'm trying to make is that if someone codes for a GL engine on the mac, it's not gonna compile and work on PC"


alright think of it like this..
Say you have a x86 PC ( Car ) and PPC Mac ( QuadBike )

Now you look at these two machines and you think... how the hell could you use them the same way? They look totally different.

When you start thinking like that... immediately your overlooking something. The fact that they're doing the exact same things, just slightly different approaches.

In order to make them both remote controlled, it would take different interfaces to the hardware. But, once that interface is in-place you can use both of them through the exact same control system. There is a slight difference in speed than controlling it directly but the difference is pretty minimal.

The best part of about intermediate languages is actually, less can go wrong in the interface. Because everything is at such a basic level, it is much easier and less likely bugs will creep in. Bugs are likely to appear the more complex things become, as such it's the intermediate language that is what is more likely to go wrong.


Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:58
Quote: "If you already have a stable blitzmax compiler, whats stopping you porting the source and writing future updates in it? "


no built-in assembly?


Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 21:58 Edited at: 13th Dec 2004 22:14
Because the act of getting Blitzmax into a compiler state would require a programming language. It's a chicken before egg style problem - Something must have been used to compile Blitzmax - unless it was created with a hex editor. If the actual tokenising and compiling is handled with a Blitzmax executable, then I see what you mean, but it's still generated from a parent language at some point. Lee could theoretically write DBPro's compiler in DBPro, it'd be messy and complex but possible.

Raven,
Have you seen any BM code? - I'm guessing you have, and there's a quote here, lemme find it :

Quote: "bglCreateContext 640,480

While Not KeyHit( KEY_ESCAPE )

glClear GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT

glBegin GL_TRIANGLES
glVertex2i 0,1
glVertex2i 1,-1
glVertex2i -1,-1
glEnd

bglSwapBuffers

Wend"


Now that's just basic representations of the C++ code to do the same thing, now my problem is that if your using GL on mac because you have no choice - does that mean that you'd have to use GL on PC as well?, the point I'm making is that a 3D engine is one thing, a 3D engine for Mac, PC, and Linux is something entirely different and entirely expensive - those free VB engines are all pretty much just DX wrappers. Then there's the whole 'this engine has this bug' problem, where the users could be battling between third party developers and Blitz Research to get issues resolved.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Anomaly
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Jan 2004
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 22:05
Thats what I meant by pre-existing language.
Gel douche
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 22:07
Unfotunatly i can't find the post where mark states that part of blitzbax is written in blitzmax, perhaps it was in one of the forums that were removed, but this is a quote from his worklog -

Quote: "you'll also get A LOT of source code - in fact, pretty much everything except the actual compiler (and even that I hope to open up in the near future)."
Gel douche
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 22:10
And theres this -

Quote: "All in all, its been a pretty wild ride: Writing a BASIC variant with a runtime library written mostly in itself has been a much bigger challenge that I at first thought (Duh!) - but the end result is pretty rewarding. Single-stepping through LoadImage or equivalent is quite a bizarre experience!

Actually building BMX here at BRL HQ is an experience in itself: first, we have to build a single file 'make' program which is a crusty old C++ beast definitely on its last legs. This allows us to then build a core set of C/C++/BMX based modules. We can then build the 'real', much nicer BMX version of 'make', which is then used to build the entire module set. Yep, its a pretty ugly script file - but not compared to some of the stuff out there in Linux land!"
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 22:46
If you read what he said, it explains what happened. Pretty much what is standard, he had to first create a Translator (similar to BCX)... doesn't appear to cover actually building the rest in Bmax itself, but i dunno.

Van I see what your saying, I've seen what Bmax does; and it is quite ugly right now. The 3D Module is in development though, as in 'not done' heh

It's quite likely that it will be pretty similar to Blitz3D. Once it is finished heh.
This is why the Mac version is around, they can testbed everything on them then just use a different compiler. Remember that the BlitzMax libraries are being created with BlitzMax itself... it has similar depth as C++ in terms of program creation, so it can create it's own libraries
However if the Libraries need to be recompiled per machine isn't explained.


Ian T
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 12th Sep 2002
Location: Around
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 23:24
Well it's getting a lot of praise so far from Blitz junkies, but like many here I'm reserving my judgement until there are solid speed and feature comparisins for the Windows version with all modules intact.

BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 13th Dec 2004 23:48 Edited at: 13th Dec 2004 23:49
Quote: "blitzmax itself is written in blitmax"




Stack Overflow due to recursive call.

I think that sums up exactly what Van B is saying

BatVink
adr
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 00:01
ftp://mirror.interoute.net/pub/UnixArchive/PDP-11/Trees/V6/usr/source/c/c00.c

That's a link to the original C Compiler, written in C. You can write languages by creating a functional compiler, and then increment your featureset by writing your next compiler using your current (stable) compiler.


How good is your game? - Billy Paul
Gel douche
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location:
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 00:12
Quote: "That's a link to the original C Compiler, written in C. You can write languages by creating a functional compiler, and then increment your featureset by writing your next compiler using your current (stable) compiler."


Thats what i was saying when i said blitmax is created in blitzmax.
If you read my post you see i said except the compiler and core stuff. Vanb's the one who blew it out of context.
adr
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 00:38 Edited at: 14th Dec 2004 00:40
I was supporting your side of the discussion.... That a language can be used to write itself. It's really freaky once you get into just how much work goes into such a task. Plus, it's kinda cool just to look at the first line of that code:

/* C Compiler */

It's very understated isn't it? It's like it's just another little program ...


How good is your game? - Billy Paul
Emperor Baal
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Dec 2003
Location: The Netherlands - Oudenbosch
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 00:40
Quote: ""blitzmax itself is written in blitmax""


unbelievable, it DOESNT say blitzmax twice...

it's either a typo or some engine (blitmax), got some results like "blitmax.h" when searching with google though

Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 00:50 Edited at: 14th Dec 2004 00:57
To simplify then:

1. BlitzMAX was written in C++

2. A newer version of a language can be written in an older version of the language, assuming it has certain basic features. You obviously cannot write a compiler in that same version of the compiler - because when you compile the new version, its not the same as the one you compiled it with (assuming you are not simply recompiling the current version from source)

3. What *is* written in BlitzMAX is the BlitzMake utility (BMK), and the modules (for which the source code is provided - it is a mix of BlitzMAX code with a sprinkle of C/C++/assembler for low-level stuff). The module code achieves platform independancy by doing something like this:


The various modules will all define the same types with the same fields and methods, and as far as the rest of the module code is concerned, the platform doesn't matter.

The compiler can also include different code depending on the processor architecture. (there are ?X86 and ?PPC switches. Hopefully this will make it possible to compile for both X86 and PPC on Linux)

It is the same as the answer to the chicken and egg evolution question - where does the chicken start, where does its predecessor finish?

@VanB

The GL sample code that comes with Max is really just tools for the pros. When the 3D engine is released, it is not going to look like that, in the same way that the GL-based Max2D module looks like old-skool BASIC.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 01:34
Quote: "The GL sample code that comes with Max is really just tools for the pros. When the 3D engine is released, it is not going to look like that, in the same way that the GL-based Max2D module looks like old-skool BASIC."


Ahh, I see - it was just the 'making a gl triangle is as easy as this...' bit - when looking at that code it just screamed C++ at me.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 03:35
The *original* language can't be written with itself, obviously

Sure, a C compiler could be written in C--- but not the *original* version.


--[GameBasic - Coming Soon]-- ^^^ banner generously designed by TheBigBabou
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 03:38
I'm still not too sure about BMax. The "write once- compile anywhere" is (will be) the biggest advantage, no doubt. On the other hand the OO implementation looks rather odd to me.
The most interesting thing will be in what direction the concept of the "source code included" modules will go. I have my doubts that this will really work with a relatively small user-base. Finally I'm not too sure that there is a large enough target audience for a tool like this. Well, we'll see I guess.



Quote: "Quote: "If you already have a stable blitzmax compiler, whats stopping you porting the source and writing future updates in it? "

no built-in assembly?"

You don't need built-in assembly to write a compiler.

Play Nice! Play Basic!
Version 1.02 available now!
Ilya
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Aug 2003
Location:
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 04:51
What if they make Blitz3D code compatable with BlitzMax?

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
David T
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: England
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 05:06
Quote: "/* C Compiler */

It's very understated isn't it? It's like it's just another little program ..."


I'm half way through a Pascal compiler written in Pascal

Remarkably easy actually...

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 06:05
Quote: "You don't need built-in assembly to write a compiler."


i think this falls under semantics of the statement


Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 14th Dec 2004 06:19
Quote: "On the other hand the OO implementation looks rather odd to me"


In what sense?


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-14 12:03:46
Your offset time is: 2024-11-14 12:03:46