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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Were those video's supposed to impress?

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Tapewormz
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 12:42 Edited at: 28th Jan 2005 12:55
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Ugh, nice zombie like AI there...You can run circles around those mob's in the video's. They don't seem to shoot at you if you're standing on the other side of a desk or table either. Not very impressive at this stage. On the other hand, the design interface is nice.

I wouldn't lift a finger to download a demo at this point (if one existed). The AI that was scripted in the video's was just insulting.

This is more of a dissapointment post than a flame. I know from what I've read that FPSC can do better, why don't you show us? Knock our socks off...Sell this product...WOW me!

Sorry if this seems harsh, but I'm an opinionated consumer. I bought DBP because it wow'ed me. I'm not getting the same vibe from FPSC at this stage.

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uman
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 12:50
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I cant argue with Tapewormz regarding his point about the AI. Hopefully the AI problems with pathfinding and player awareness will have been fixed for the EA release.

I am surprised that those videos with that level of AI behaviour were even released to the Newsletter. Not a good promotional item I dont think personally.
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Cloud of Crows Studios
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 14:04
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I got the impression from the older diary entries that AI wasn't really Lee's cup of tea so to speak. I think TGC just wants a stable, functioning AI for the initial release. I wouldn't be surprised if they (rightly) assumed that the community will expand on and create more interesting and useful AI scripts. "Bot programming" seems like a popular thing among modding communities.

Of course like most things in life I can be and probably am wrong
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Coldnews
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 15:20
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I think people should wait until its out and they use it before they speak about the AI. They need to wait to see what they can do.

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Tapewormz
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 17:11 Edited at: 30th Jan 2005 20:24
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Yeah, but... They're "showcasing" it now to generate interest. My point is, wow me, sell me...Cause right now, they're not.

At the very leaset, show some video clips with better AI than what we've seen.

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Coldnews
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 17:25
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its just going to encourage people to develop more interesting Ai then isnt it?

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 18:22
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They cannot WOW everybody you know.

Most people on here are always going to be complaining about something.

Had the videos not been released, you would be complaining because nothing is happening.

The 3d chat is coming...
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Van B
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 18:55
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The chances are those enemies were plonked onto the map without much customisation - you can set waypoints, different AI scripts, different shooting scripts etc etc etc.

From my tests, I haven't been worried about the AI, it seems ok to me. When an enemies fire rate is set at the default, they don't shoot that often, but it's all variable, you could tell your enemies to shoot much more frequently. I'm pretty sure that there'll be tons of AI scripts developed after the EA, which bolt right onto FPSC seamlessly.


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Rob K
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 19:53
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Quote: " Ugh, nice zombie like AI there...You can run circles around those mob's in the video's."


Quote: "This is more of a dissapointment post than a flame. I know from what I've read that FPSC can do better, why don't you show us? Knock our socks off...Sell this product...WOW me!"


The AI has been improved since I filmed those sessions. I haven't yet tried the latest beta, but they were taken before Lee did much AI tweaking.

They are not official promotional videos - as a beta tester I just created a few short videos to show you what FPSC is like. I have no commercial interest in trying to 'sell' FPSC.

I have no objections about your comments on the AI - it was buggy and Lee has made some improvements. However if I take time to create those videos, only to be complained at because they show both the good and the bad bits about FPSC, why should I bother creating any more?


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Noldor
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 21:14
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I liked your videos "Rob K".
They were honest. PLZ make more.
i didn't see any real problem with them.
I was more interested in the editor videos then
the game videos thou.
But both are good.
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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 28th Jan 2005 21:56
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Yes I did wonder if we should share the videos because I also worried about the effect the AI would have. Lee has improved the AI and it's very easy to have enemies attacking you instead of fleeing and getting stuck (which is a bug that has been fixed).

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TGC Team
[Read "The POWER of NOW by Eckhart Tolle". There is no past or future, only NOW!]
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Anime civil
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Posted: 29th Jan 2005 00:28
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The reason why DBPRO wowed you is because it was ALL PROGRAMMED!
BUT NOOOOO. Nobody will listen to me inthis forum and everyone wants EVERTYTHING TO BE DONE ITSELF! Too bad people, to get something right, you have to do it yourself, because if you dont, you will have a crappy AI.

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Noldor
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Posted: 29th Jan 2005 00:32
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Well then "Animecivil" do it yourselfe and keep it in another forum because this one is for people that don't want to do it themselves.
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Anime civil
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Posted: 29th Jan 2005 00:33
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Yes, and then the people who dont want to do it themselves will complain like that guy up there.

Animecivil
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Noldor
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Posted: 29th Jan 2005 00:37
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Can someone else try to talk to (or yell on)
him because i can't handle this
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uman
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Posted: 29th Jan 2005 01:52
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Rob K,

Rob no offence meant to you re your videos. At the forum here we understand the situataion with FPSC and any probs there may have been with AI or pathfinding. It has nothing to do with you personally but the prog condition at the time of the vid making and we apreciate that.

Any point I was making related to the fact they were available via the newsletter for anyone to view - some perhaps completely new to gamemaking who take the the overall impresssion of the vids with ref to the AI as being "what FPSC can do" which is unfair to the product itself, which apparently has now overcome those AI/Pathfinding probs prevailing at the time you made the vids.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 20:09 Edited at: 30th Jan 2005 20:26
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Quote: "Yes I did wonder if we should share the videos because I also worried about the effect the AI would have. Lee has improved the AI and it's very easy to have enemies attacking you instead of fleeing and getting stuck (which is a bug that has been fixed)."


Fair enough. I'm not bashing this product, I just felt that the video's didn't really show off what could be done with FPSC. I know TGC is really excited about this product, and hopefully in the future the video's sparkle and shine a bit more.

Quote: "However if I take time to create those videos, only to be complained at because they show both the good and the bad bits about FPSC, why should I bother creating any more?"


Because you're generating both positive and negative feedback. I mentinoed how I thought the AI was substandard, and was informed (thanks again RickV)that this issue has since been fixed. So, hooray! Keep doing the video's Rob, I wasn't blasting you.

Quote: "The AI that was scripted in the video's was just insulting."


I put a silly face after that comment, because the AI in those video's was silly. It reminded me of those old zombie movies. The mob's just lurched and seemed confused. It made me laugh.

@Mnemonix,
Yeah, they can't wow everyone...But I'm a consumer and I'm interested in the development of this product. I figure giving honest critisism instead of false praise does more to help the people involved push to create something better. I'm not what people call a "YES" man. My comments were also all directed at FPSC's current stage of development. It's not early, but it's not late, so there's always time to improve. You'll also notice that I sprinkled in a positive comment on the design aspect of FPSC. It's one of those GOOD NEWS, BAD NEWS posts.

One thing I have a problem with is my abillity to convey a tone in my posts. I think alot of people read my posts and feel that I was being really abrasive, when infact I'm being sincere. Not all the time mind you, sometimes I'm just abrasive.

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granada
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 20:50
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Quote: "But I'm a consumer and I'm interested in the development of this product. I figure giving honest critisism instead of false praise does more to help the people involved push to create something better."


Good point!

dave

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 23:12 Edited at: 30th Jan 2005 23:13
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I will warn you now that the AI scripts supplied with FPSC are fairly simple. ie. Don't expect enemies to display HL2-levels of intelligence.

Enemies will fight you, follow you, run away and hide etc. but there isn't really a proper pathfinding system in place (so they couldn't hunt you down from the other side of the map for example / surround you / call for reinforcements)

Quote: "Fair enough. I'm not bashing this product, I just felt that the video's didn't really show off what could be done with FPSC"


Any suggestions as to what should be in future videos?


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Noldor
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 23:18
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I would personaly want see more of the editor in action.
Well maby thats just me.
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granada
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 23:37
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Quote: "I would personaly want see more of the editor in action.
Well maby thats just me. "


Me to

dave

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MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 23:42
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I would like to see you use 3 differant
guns and change between them. No body
has shown that in a video yet. And a
moving car(or train, or whatever).
I would LIKE to hear SOUND too!!!

Thank for taking requests Rob K!

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 00:04
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Sound wasn't working when I filmed the videos - hence the lack of it.


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MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 00:06
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Quote: "Sound wasn't working when I filmed the videos - hence the lack of it.
"

oh. Ok

But I still would like to see what I siad above. thanks

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 00:41
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Quote: "Don't expect enemies to display HL2-levels of intelligence. "

There was intelligence in HL2 ?

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk/
Questions are a burden to others, answers a prison for oneself.
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slacer
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 01:34
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I would like to see a simple custom script in its editor.
Is it a new scripting language or pure dark basic?

Something like: "if player is detected - duck else stand up".

The faq said there is no vehicle control for the EA, so I guess you can't show a driving car.
But maybe a tank turret following its moving target?

Great videos so far, they help to get a feeling for fpsc - even before you can touch it
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Noldor
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 01:42 Edited at: 31st Jan 2005 01:46
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The script editor is Notepad.
It is a special script.
There are some code snippets from the script in
these two threads.
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=46496&b=21
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=40885&b=21

And BTW if you read this whole thread i belive you will
se that we can have a kind of driving car..
It would be an enemy following waypoints while looking
like a car though.

EDIT: Good work reading the FAQ before posting.
We are all proud of you.
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slacer
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 02:11 Edited at: 31st Jan 2005 02:12
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I am so sorry
But a vehicle is more than a player with another outfit.
Have you ever seen a car bob its head while you are driving it?
Or will it slide like a sledge?

The FAQ said there would no vehicle control because they don't have the time to implement the car physic for now.

While a player may turn on a spot - a car simply can't (well if the car is no tank )

A faked car movie will not help, because it will show nothing "real".

But hey, no offense here - just giving my ideas.

[EDIT] Thank you for the links
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Noldor
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 02:16
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ok well with that view on what is required for a car then no
there are no cars.
Its all up to what you think passes of as a car.
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MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 02:49
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you can make cars that aren't drivable. Link:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=47064&b=21

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Noldor
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 02:56
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That is what i meant by
Quote: "It would be an enemy following waypoints while looking
like a car though."

it drives but it is not drivable.
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MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 02:58
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ohh. sorry. didn't understand.

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uman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 05:25
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Rob K,

"Enemies will fight you, follow you, run away and hide etc".

If enemies can do that with a reasonable level of behavioural realism, then thats more than a good start for an engine as an EA version for which TGC should be congartulated. There are few if any indie engines showing enemies that can do all of that without quite complex programming.


"but there isn't really a proper pathfinding system in place (so they couldn't hunt you down from the other side of the map for example / surround you / call for reinforcements)"

Hopefully, one way or another such matters can be improved over time and future versions so that some or all of those features could be implimented. Lets hope its possible. Though "Hunt you down from the other side of the map" would be an extreme requirement I would think - even for me.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 07:03
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Quote: "There was intelligence in HL2?"


Headcrabs... I haven't played HL2 yet, I can't bring myself to buy it. There's other games out there I want to buy first.

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