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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / How many FPS do we see?

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 23:54
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How many FPS do our eyes see?

I know it's less than 60 'cus tv's run at 50-something.
The reason i wondering is this:

For example if our eyes see at 30 FPS and a game ran at 60 FPS and moved a sprite 1 position a second should (in theory) look exactly the same as a game running at 30FPS moving the same sprite 2 positions a second.

Or maybe not.....
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The Darthster
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 00:19
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Our eyes see a continuous stream of data, I always thought. If you do a google search for 'human eye refresh rate' you come up with a load of different figures for what our eyes can and can't perceive, not above 85Hz, well above 120Hz, 25Hz, 115Hz, 60hz, 26Hz, etc. There are some interesting arguments about it. Our eyes perceive constant motion, which contradicts the barrage of static images produced in games. If there is some motion blurring it tends to look better as this is how we perceieve things. Wave your hand about rapidly, you will notice that it appears blurred. Wave it about in front of a monitor, you see a series of static images.

You can notice the difference between 30 and 60 fps:
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 01:28
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i can tell you know... anyone who believe they can see more than 60fps on a monitor running at 60hz is a lying idiot

why?

i'll break this down simple, a monitor runs at a specific hz which is how quickly the pictures are refreshed. Now if this hz is out of sync with the set hz (either faster or slower) you get that weird vhold loss.
Now this hz is a constant speed, so let for examply say my monitor (is a CTX VL700 which is it is hehee) now it can run at 2048x960 @ 60hz (which funnily enough it does)

now this means whatever resolution the monitor is changed to ... it will ONLY refresh 60times per second.
(you can probably see where this is going)

so say you darkbasic program is running at 100fps ... AS the monitor refreshes 60x a sec, and your trying to render 100 pictures in a sec, this means one of two things.
You either have to combine them to blur them or drop those which can't be render'd.

Historically DirectX did the latter which causes a kinda jumpy effect

however that said ... this means the maximum fps you can have is 60 - making it impossible to spot if it is running any faster because as far and your monitor and eyes are conserned its not.

This is why anything over 60fps you can't see the difference of, but you can under 60fps.
becuase the monitors buffer keeps showing the same image until a new one is sent

now without blurring scientest reckon the adverage person can see between 100-200billion images per second - whether you could tell the difference at that level is another matter ... but i say adverage because each persons brain works at a different speed and its really the brains speed that dictacts this value.

You can teach it to veiw more than adveragely possible. For example people who fight other people usually learn to see more so they can react quicker and effectively their perception of time during this time also slows enabling them to move quicker

The TVs can run at much slower speeds than Monitors simply because of motion blurring. Which is a similar technique to Dithering a picture colour ... you can fool the perception of frames shown by combining several and blurring the images so it actually gives the brain the impression that its actually seeing almost 2-3x more images

which is more than enough for adverage movements, but if you notice when they show something liek football - try to follow the ball and you start to notice that the movement isn't as smooth as you thought, because it only really works well with relatively slow actions and if there are fast actions then it usually isn't for too long

next time you see a machine gun fired on TV take notice of it - because they do look difference in real life ... kinda like car wheels, they never appear to be turning the wrong way on TV ... yet they will in real life because you brain is processing far more images a second

i know this was long but hopefully this makes it all alot clearer.

one last thing - as standard VSync is on in DirectX and OpenGL ... this sets the montior to 60hz at all resolutions (because it is a the failsafe hz speed)

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 01:51
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Eyes dont have a Fps. They dont a 'refresh' command you see!

xxxpetratxxx
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 01:53
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the dont have*

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mimesis
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 02:54
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In other words...



not so complicated after all...lol
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 03:04
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sure they do...
i mean sit back and think about it for a second

Q:What is an FPS? A:It is a frame per second
Q:What is a frame? A:A single picture or image, usually associated with animation

from this ... you brain has to process the light - and yes it does it in real time, it is still processing single images and making them a stream of images.

imagine it like a broadband video trailer ... now that is a constant stream of information - and translated into single images which are then projected at the set speed which gives you ... your trailer

hehee, so really what FPS you can see just depend on how fast the brain can process these images.

and anyone who reckons we can't see more than 60frames every second - i mean think about it that just absurd, that would mean computers are faster than our high level functions which are done automatically.
The human brain processes at roughly the speed of light, which CPU's do not so really its kinda absurd to believe that a computer can calculate more FPS than the human brain

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 03:44
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Regular TVs go 50 fps, but what about HDTVs?

This is Truth!
This is my Belief!
...at least for now.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 04:03
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All my Tvs run perfect in the 60Hz mode (I have a dreamcast)

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Draez
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 07:40
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raven:
sorry but your analysis is a bit off. You have nerve endings that take in the light all at the same time.. there is no raster like on a picture tube. Hence all the light seen by your eye comes in constantly. your brain doesnt just create a picture of it, rather it analyzes all the data it is always receiving and makes a best guess of what it is. it is nothing like a screen being drawn since there are tons of receptors feeding the data at the same time to the brain unlike the scan line of a CRT in which there is only one (hdtv's have two).

That's why different people see more or less than other's. So basically for a real time rendering you could say that 60 fps on a monitor is the bare minimum you could get away with but still some people may find it still too slow. So anything higher than that would always be better as you would be covering a higher spectrum. I am comfortable with 85 fps or more.. 60 is just too flickery for me.

just my 2 cents, have a good one!

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 13:00
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I've said it before, but Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally ran at constant 30fps and were very smooth to play. Nowadays 60fps is something more to aim for, any more than that is imho unnecessary. The BIG issues is stability. If a game slows down or jerks when the action gets complicated, the atmosphere of a game is instantly lost. I would rather see a game run at a steady 30fps than 60fps dropping to 20 suddenly when something happens

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InSiDeR
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 18:32
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??????????????????????????
what are you ppl on about

research states that the human brain cannot spot differences between 30FPS to 6million

heres a little test

Put your hand in front of you and move it as fast as you can left to right, a distance of a 30cm ruler is enough

now you should see 2 hands instaead of one

now if we could see at 120FPS then we would NOT see 2 hands it would be a fluid action, but we dont...

infact heres a better test


focus on the smiley whilst doing the above test...ONLY...THE SMILEY
















the screen provides a nice back drop and you can notice the extra hands more easily

InSiDeR
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 18:52
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lol... cinematic cameras show an entire picture at once - doesn't mean that its not processed.

the brain still has to translate it in a fashion we can understand - and flip it too remember!
because we really see upside down

you can see billions of frames per second, however the hand test over the monitor is a perfect example of how you can't see dual light sources.

Remember our eyes veiw the light reflection passively - and unlike light from natual objects which all travels at the same speed, monitors and TV etc are specifically designed to slow light within the Screen ... this is to
A) save your eyes from being instantly burnt out
B) to keep the screen in focus

also try to clench and fully extend you hand quickly and notice how you can really see practically ALL the movement.
whereas when you move from side to side it appears greatly blurred.
this is due to something called bounce cooeffient

i could probably go quite indepth about all of this, but i'm not going to ... if you want to test this being quicker simply set you monitor resolution to 800x600 where you can get about 100fps - set you directX refresh rate at this speed to 100.

now get 100 different pictures and run them on the monitor at 100fps pasting each one in turn

you'll notice that after a little while you start to see picture of them and if you concentrate you can start to see them in more and more detail.
for those with great short term memory you can see them all pretty clearly

you notice there is no blurring but it hurts your eyes ... this is cause you can veiw them faster than they're shown - your just not used to it

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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regujka
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 20:49
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Please send me some examples for the shaders and the vectors! My adress: [email protected]

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 21:36
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Regujka - DON'T SPAM you'll get banned and no1 will answer you!

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ShockFire
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 21:36
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lol, this regujka guy is sure annoying, STICK TO ONE POST! and make your own, dont use other peoples posts lol.

Anyway, back to topic
The average human guy thing sees at 80hz+, if you view a monitor that is refreshing less than 80hz then you'll get RSI, and basically have to wear glasses after about half a year in your regular job. I'd always recommend that people always set there refresh rate at about 85hz. If you cant reach that in your res, drop down your resolution untill you can; i mean whats more important your resolutions or your eyes? (dont answer that, ive had some unexpected answers before lol).

Its like at work, whenever i build a new pc, i always set the refresh rate to optimal (you might know that windows suspects a crappy 60hz when you first install, personally that gives my headache. At 60hz you'll be able to see the screen updating).

Anyway, to answer, i know that the human eye refresh rate IS or IS MORE than 80hz. Personally, i think it is something more like the 120 suggested above. As for the hand thing, im glad i didnt go into any type of science
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 04:49
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lmao... yup with the hand test we're getting all scienmatific on ya

though yeah your right - but the fact of the hz is less the eye and actually more due to the pitch whine, that although you might not be able to consciously hear - you brain still can and don't like it, no sir-ee-bob

though i like me fantastic high resolution... i dont' wanna give it up for the sake of my eyes

but then again if it is fudging up my eyes its taken its sweet time - i've spent most of the past 6-7years with a monitor infront of me.
My eyes are still 20-20 and aside from a minor colour blindness are as good to perfect as you can get
which is not bad for saying my whole family has poor eyesight and has to wear glasses hehee

i do constantly suffer from a very bad migrane about once a week, unless i remember to actually take my breaks every few hours.
ya know i always found it amusing how our breakroom at work had 3 games consoles and a single TV - but when the guys took a break from coding or art or whatever they'd pile in and be the first to like play Super Smash Bros. Melee or something ... would defeat the point in resting your eyes no?

Oh the worst has to be after working non-stop 8hours in an artificially illuminated room, with the blinds closed to prevent glare and you go outside.
In Cali unlike the Uk the sun actually comes out alot - and its like you're seeing daylight for the first time

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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InSiDeR
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 13:00
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RSI??

isnt that a bone disorder?
lol

i knwo it is cause i used to ahve it in my knee's


As for the hand thing, im glad i didnt go into any type of science

LOL, fine
lol, its funny to think ppl actually tried that,bahahaha
oh well....

InSiDeR
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 13:19
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oh yeah... you can make them do some stupid things if you call it scientific

too many guliable people i swear

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 17:10
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RSI - Repetitive Strain Injury - So I guess you could get it in your eyes/brain if you were constantly forced to watch an evil refresh rate... lol

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ShockFire
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 22:27
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lol, i did it in the name of science, it was a great research opportunity.

If you think stuck 8 hours in badly lit rooms is bad; try 9 hours in a workshop (more like a loft conversion), with NO heater, in northern England, in the beginning of January, with servers with giant cooling fans (you might know where im going). Anyway, that was my old EVIL workplace, lol.

Anyway, if youve got bad eye site due to RSI, it can be fixed aslong as you dont let it go too far...
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ShockFire
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 22:29
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anyway, ive noticed i say anyway too much. its starting to annoy me.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Jan 2003 22:37
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yeah i know about RSI ... woulda thought the time i spend i would need glasses or something - because apparently your eyes slowly go out of focus.

and it happens most when you get tired because your brain can't compensate properly.

i mean everyone has to remember thier brain might be a complex machine - but its adaptive abilities arn't fantastic.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Shock
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Posted: 25th Jan 2003 22:41
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yeah, RSI isnt just eye strain though, its alot of things, (for some reason ive only ever heard it being used when about computers.). It can be typing, using the mouse, neck strain from looking up or down at monitors...

...::::ShockForge::::...

Ambient Software coming soon!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 25th Jan 2003 23:39
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Machine workers can get RSI too - basically anyone who deos the same action over and over again

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