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Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 18th Feb 2005 21:39 Edited at: 18th Feb 2005 21:41
I am a little perplexed. because of the lack of the segment builder, like lots here probs, i decided to find the components for the walls, floors etc, and make copies and alter there textures

i did manage to find the floor segments and changes these successfully - but i could not find the room sections. I presume cos they are 'actually' not models, but made from segements and stored as prefabs, but my questions, is.. where can i find the wall segments to alter the textures?
Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 18th Feb 2005 22:11 Edited at: 18th Feb 2005 22:22
Okay,.. i just realised that for example Armoury Full contains all the bits to construct the model, floor, walls etc. I was confused cos this was indicated as a segment, not a prefab.

So its not easy to change the texture for all parts of the model.

Maybe for the time being, someone could write a viewer in db pro, that displays the prefab, and we can then alter the textures

Please someone explain thougj, why each segment in the .fps file has multiple textures - when it is only actually for one segment. i understand if there were 4 textures, listed as a whole, then this would be one for one segment, and another for another segment. but each has 4 texture or more?

as follows:

partmode0 = 0
meshname0 = meshbankscifimoonbaseroomsarmouryfloor_a.x
offx0 = 0
offy0 = -51
offz0 = 0
rotx0 = 0
roty0 = 0
rotz0 = 0
texture0 = texturebankscififloorsmetalf_f_01_d2.tga
textured0 = texturebankscififloorsmetalf_f_01_D2.tga
texturen0 = texturebankscififloorsmetalf_f_01_D2.tga
textures0 = texturebankscififloorsmetalf_f_01_D2.tga
Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 18th Feb 2005 22:18
Its me again....

just had an exciting thought.

At this stage, we have no segment tool, but i thnk it would be quite easy in db pro, to write a program, that basically follows the above data. i.e. it loads the various .x meshes in on screen, and in the .fps file we already have the details as to how to rotate them.. so we can load the model in, and then have some small code to rotate the pieces as listed in the .fps file and then we could have some code to alter the diff textures of the prefab.

Then we could write a tool, quite simply i think to move the pieces of the model on screen, and then save out a text file with rotation coords for each piece. Then simply paste this rotation info into the fps file, and in theory... it will display the prefab, altered to the new rotation coords.

Sorry if this sounding a bit confusing... I know what i mean, just hard to get it acrooss! in text
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 01:21 Edited at: 19th Feb 2005 08:33
You scare me.

First, the reason there multiple textures are for the different resolutions you can set when displaying your game

Second, why would you want to reinvent the wheel and use DB Pro to build a segment editor when you can either wait for the segment editor to be user-friendly OR use programs such as Max and MilkShape? You can also use MaxScript to export the .FPS file.

I guess I don't follow why you would want to build something in hopefully 3 months that TGC have been working on for 3 years?

-This...is my boomstick!
Stevie
User Banned
Posted: 19th Feb 2005 01:53
Cellbloc can u never answer without a hint of sarcasm.

As the segment maker probs wont be here till v1(poss the summer) i was just trying to think of another route for the time being...

Also the four textures - yes i got yer on that... i didnt think!
dononeton
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 02:46
What is all need to make a segment?I have Gamespace 1.6 and it exports to the .x format.

don
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 03:03 Edited at: 19th Feb 2005 03:49
@Stevie:

I have tried, I REALLY have, just people set themselves up.

Perfect example. Do you really think that "dononeton" went to page 76 of the manual where it talks about "Making New Segments"?

Do you think he used the search part of the forum and found this thread?
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=48702&b=21

So I have just decided to ignore him.

What people need to learn is patience. Once they master this, the world is theirs!

No, really. I know you "want" a quick and easy way to make segments, and I bet a lot of other people are in your boat (or swimming towards it). My comments steam from years of wadding through this and finding alternatives (such as you suggested) to doing something. I try my best to look at
a) the manual.
b) other comments based on what I am in need of.
c) direct contact with other people.
d) THEN post a question.

In my opinion, and my opinion alone, they didn't release the Segment Editor due to that it is "programmers version" and therefore not for the general public. I mean, if you at these forums, on ANY given page, the same question has been asked 3 times and most of the time the answer comes straight from the manual. If people cannot do a simple thing such as read the manual, check the files in the directory, etc how are they going to use a "programmer’s version" of a program that the programmers are used to crashing at certain parts. How many topics have been posted "Program won't load, program shows black screen, etc". I would rather TGC spend the time fixing those before even touching one line of code in the Segment Editor.

Anyways, as I have mention, good idea about your segment editor, but I don't think it is a "need" but more of a "want".

Best of luck!

-This...is my boomstick!
LeeBamber
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 07:18
I like the cut of Cellblocs' jib, he can be both sarcastic and sensible, an effective combination to put people right off a good argument! I am just roaming the explosion of extra FPSC forum categories and wanted to add something to this thread of some small worth; to err is human. To forgive; divine. There is no right, there is no wrong. Just consequences. That's not mine, that's Ricks. My point? Does there 'really' have to be be one? Okay, I am not that far gone. My advice is to make small changes to create new segments to allow the creation of your own floor, wall and roof segments and textures, but do not invest too much time in an tool for the purpose. We havw a good one here, and it can only get better. It is just internal at the moment, which spells disaster for the un-initiated user

"We are the knights who say...eki eki eki fatang loopzoing, zanziga....ni"
dononeton
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 07:20
@Cellbloc Studios

Autually I did see that thread and read it. I also read the manual, but I did not see anything about making Segments in an external editor such as Gamespace then again It may very well be in there. I just want to know what kind of work flow I will use.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 07:50 Edited at: 19th Feb 2005 08:39
@dononeton:

Then I must apologies, for I have to give credit where credit is due and if you read the manual you are FAR beyond most people!

I personally have never used "Game space" so I am sorry that I will not be able to "walk thru" with you.

BUT

Since you have read the manual, you must understand then that the purpose of creating a segment is basically an .X file with a single texture and placed in a specific directory with an .FPS script that "loads it". (Or I should say the same texture, but it can have up to 3 different resolutions, but don't read into that too much)

Now, just because I am in a really happy mood (see Lee Bamber comments and a Purple Snickers....) so this is what I "suggest" you do.

1) Load up Game space.
2) Make a Box
3) Texture the box with an image. Make sure that the image is 32 bit TGA (a lot of Graphic programs default it to 24 bit, careful!)
4) Export it as an .X file (ASCII)
5) Rename the texture to the same name of the .X file (just go with it, it doesn't HAVE to be like this, just easier to explain)
6) Get into the .X file and change the texture names to the new name.

At this point you should have an .X file (in ASCII) with a texture with the same name as a 32 Bit TGA file.

7) Go to "C:\Program Files\The Game Creators\FPS Creator\Files\segments" (or where ever your files are installed) and add a new directory called CellblocSegments (or whatever you want)
8) Now copy these 2 files to this directory.
9) This is the absolute fun part. I nicknamed it "little Diablo"
10) Find a file .FPS that matches your box (I would choose ground.fps)
11) Copy and rename this file to Box.fps
12) Open it with a text editor and change the paths to the model and the tga file.

As I have mention, this is the "scary" part whereas you need some basic understanding of how models, axis, pivot points, etc work in order to set this up correctly (one of the reasons I still believe that TGC didn't release the editor). A lot of this has to do with "offsets"

13) If you fire up the "Amazing FPSCreator" and make your way to Segments you should see one named "Box". Click on it and see what happens.

This is the workflow that I think works. I have done it before but I am at work and therefore "should" be working and not on forums trying to help people out. Give that a swing and tell me what you get.

-This...is my boomstick!
dononeton
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 08:05
Thanks for your reply. I thought it would be that easy. I will give it a try.

don
dononeton
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 13:05
It worked for me. I just need to figure out the scale from gamespace to FPSC. My box is just a little box in the center of one of the grid squares

Thanks for the info it helped alot

don
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 00:33
Not a problem.

That is what us sarcastic people are good for.

-This...is my boomstick!
Aoneweb
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 04:30
If making a wall segment, what dementions should your model be.

Toshiba Sattelite, 2GHz,Nvidia GeForce4 420go, Windows XP Home. www.aoneweb.com
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 04:37
6 cubic by 2 cubic by 2 cubic

-This...is my boomstick!
Aoneweb
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 04:50
So 6 cudic’s width, 2 deep, 2 tall, OK that seem wrong but my fault for asking.

Toshiba Sattelite, 2GHz,Nvidia GeForce4 420go, Windows XP Home. www.aoneweb.com
Aoneweb
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 06:15 Edited at: 20th Feb 2005 06:17
Cellbloc Studios, I agree with Stevie, your sarcasm is not welcome by most of the users who have spent their hard earned money on a product that they have every right to ask questions about using on this Forum, this Forum after all was set up for this purpose, I have also notice that no one individual on this thread (except me right now) addressed their questions directly to you, so why do you start treads with comments like “You scare me.” And “I have tried, I REALLY have, just people set themselves up.” If it is such a chore to help people out, then please don’t bother, I am sure your sarcastic remarks and putdowns will not be missed.

Toshiba Sattelite, 2GHz,Nvidia GeForce4 420go, Windows XP Home. www.aoneweb.com
Music Man
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 06:46
Donneton - do us a favor, once you find the scale and the procedure in Gamespace (1.5 / 1.6), please share with us what you did to make it work.

In fact, try making a segment with walls, a floor and a ceiling and then do the above, use segments that came with FPScreator and then use your own interchangeably - if you cannot tell the difference (well, obviously the textures will be different) and you can play the game with your "homemade" segments, please share what you did with all of us - thanks in advance!

By the way, having a tool to make segments NOW instead of waiting many months for one is GREAT THING, not a good thing, and certainly not a bad thing. If we have to eventually replace it with the FPSCreator one, so be it. It is a GREAT thing to have competitiveness and choices (that's what business is founded on). What would have happened if there was only ONE hamburger restaurant allowed in the world and we had to wait a year for it to be ready enough for us to eat - there would be . . . well, um, better health, less immodium sold, errr - bad example.

You get the point. I think many enterprising Dark Basic Pro or (any language inserted here) programmers should try and make a cool segment and (dare I say) prefab maker for FPSCreator. At the best, it could possibly be included with the package and at worst, used separately by many adoring fans. The worst thing would for it not to work and you had code red or something and now we all suffer and our computers crash and burn and you go to hell for all eternity. But, hey, that's the worst that could happen, right?

lol - just kidding folks - please create a segment and/or prefab maker - I know I am going to try and make one.

Mike
Noldor
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 10:04
Im with you "Music Man" i also think
they should release the "Segment editor" now
and then update it with time.
Most of us would be able to adapt to a not completed
hard to use buggy Editor as long as it makes segments.

Altouh i think that they don't want to release it to soon
due to all the questions and whining that will rise from
people with to little patience to understand that its a
beta version.
Music Man
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 12:13
Okay, here's the solution. The nice people at The Game Creators, Ltd DECIDE who to give it to - give it to those that do not whine.

Then those that whine can whine at US, the non-whiners, to give them a copy. Oh, it will be glorius (it's kinda like when grandparents see their kid's kids acting up and they smile knowingly - thinking to themselves "Now you see what you did to us all those years - payback's a bitch") Lee and company can sit back and laugh with glee at all of us getting whined at.

Actually, that could backfire and then Lee and company would be whined at more for not giving the whiners a copy.

Forget the whole thing - I've got a headache now just thinking about it.

Mike
Aoneweb
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 13:17
It would be nice to have a segment editor or two, beta or not, I could get more done and would be glad to report any bugs.

Toshiba Sattelite, 2GHz,Nvidia GeForce4 420go, Windows XP Home. www.aoneweb.com
Cloud of Crows Studios
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 21:14
Quote: "Okay, here's the solution. The nice people at The Game Creators, Ltd DECIDE who to give it to - give it to those that do not whine."


Yes.

Quote: "Then those that whine can whine at US, the non-whiners, to give them a copy."


No.

You have to sign an NDA that specifically says that you WILL NOT give out a copy. Sorry

For what it's worth I support any third party efforts to create a seperate modeling and / or segment editor (for example Vanmesh )
Noldor
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 23:15
That NDA also say that you have to relase all the segments
you create to the community..
(forkem over)
Chimera
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 01:26
Noldor, even if they SUCK?

Don't eat yellow snow!
Noldor
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 01:40
yes.
Cloud of Crows Studios
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 01:59
Quote: "(forkem over) "


haha

Well I would be more than happy, but Lee hasn't got to my request yet. So no NDA (yet) and no Segement Editor which of course means no segments to fork... yet...
Chimera
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 03:26
What does it do acutally? I don't get the concept of it, it makes segments yes, but how? Does it upload your segments you made in another 3D moddeling program and scales it properely or what?

Don't eat yellow snow!
Noldor
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 04:36
You load your models of walls and floors into
the segment editor and it makes segments out of
them. simple
You dont make the models in the segment editors
you just kind of put them together.
(altouh i could be wrong)
Chimera
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 04:54
Oh, too bad. Probably is very useful for some of you but I can't model that well, so I can't do much with it.

thx for explaining Noldor

Don't eat yellow snow!
Noldor
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 04:58 Edited at: 21st Feb 2005 04:58
Well most of us (me) will release our segments for the rest
of you to use. So you would also gain from it's release.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 08:21 Edited at: 21st Feb 2005 08:28
@Aoneweb:

Quote: "If making a wall segment, what dementions should your model be."


Have you tried LOADING a wall segment that is already made into GameSpace and seeing what the dimentions are?

Quote: "If it is such a chore to help people out, then please don’t bother, I am sure your sarcastic remarks and putdowns will not be missed."


It´s not a chore.

If I can find a copy of GameSpace, I will let you know the dimentions (should take all of about 10 sec to figure out)

-This...is my boomstick!
Noldor
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 08:33
Well all of us don't use Gamespace to model.
(no offence.)
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 08:57
@Noldor:

I never even heard of Gamespace till I went to TGC web site.

If you would post what modelers you are using, I will see what I can do about telling you the dimentions.

I personally use Max have been using Max since 1988 when it was 3D Studio Release 4 for DOS (came on 4 floppies... those were the days)

-This...is my boomstick!
Noldor
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 09:45
I know the dimensions.
Im fine with my tools.
(already made several entitys and a custom gun)
I was just talking for others.
Well thanks for the offer anyway.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 11:16 Edited at: 21st Feb 2005 22:09
Not a problem.

The thing that people I don´t think understand is that the ENTIRE FPSCreator Program runs on models and scripts. If you study the scripts, the models fall into place.

Example:
If you goto the directory where the Segments are, then open up ANY FPS file, you will see links to .X files as well as .TGA files. People keep asking for ¨Dimentions¨ which is really hard to give people because there is not really 1 set of dimentions.

Let us take a staircase for example. In your modeler, you build 1 stair and in the script you make copies of that stair and position each stair higher and with an offset. Therefore, the question that comes up is ¨How tall is my stairs¨? Answer is depends on how tall you want your stairs.

Since they are ASCII based .X files, you should be able to load them up into ANY modeler program (Max, MilkShape, Gamespace ,etc) to see what that specific model is. There are also wall segments which give you an ¨idea¨ on how big 1 cell is in the editor, BUT you are not limited to it.

I really have enjoyed the way TGC have built this system, using only Scripts and Models. Using this concept, there are no questions that you cannot find the answer yourself by looking through the scripts. Heck, I have built esculators, shuttle pods, flight decks for aircraft carrier, outside terrain, etc just because I spend a few days doing nothing but going throught the scripts and making notes on what they do. Once I have done this, there is so far nothing that I believe I cannot do with this most excellent software creation tool.

I hope you are enjoying this Amazing FPSCreator as much as I am.

-This...is my boomstick!
Noldor
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 20:28
I agree that you can find the answer to most of the questions looking through the scripts.
But it is not in any way true that every modeling tool can load
the ASCII .x files. Milkshape can load some static models
with a built in tool but it can not load the segment walls.
That actually makes it crash.
Lightwave can not load .x files at all so that makes it realy
tricky to get things right.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 22:09 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 00:15
Ah, well, that's a bummer. You would think since DirectX and 3DS are basically standards, that their would be some way of getting it into the modeler.

I also use a great program called "Deep Exploration" which converts most anything (bitmaps and models) to, well, most anything.

@Music Man:

Yes, having multiple programs doing the same thing but different ways is fine. My point I was attempting to make is I know of very few cases where people have made entire applications in 2 months or so from scratch. Now, I could be wrong, but I haven't seen it.

Along the same lines, TGC have been working on the segment editor for 3 years. And in the 3 years, they don't believe it's ready for users? There are plenty of modeler programs out there that do the exact same thing (Gamespace, MilkShape, Max, etc). If TGC released the Segment editor, they would be hit with so many emails with bugs and scope creep they could not get anything done.

I guess what I am trying to say is this. If you had to choose between using a Segment Editor (when there are lots of alternatives) *OR* using the FPSCreator Editor to make your levels with bug fixes, which do you want? They cannot do both at the same time. Their are only like 2 programmers.

@Chimera:
Doesn't really do a whole heck of a lot. You can do just about the same thing in any modeler program. Just it does export a FPS file with the locations of each model along with the model.

-This...is my boomstick!
Noldor
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 06:13 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 06:13
I don't think that you have understod this "Cellbloc Studios".
Modeling tools does not do the exact same thing as
the segment editor.
The segment editor is not a model editor. (as far as i know)
It's a tool that puts your models (made in other tool)
together into segments. So that you can paint out the
rooms and have the floors and walls connect properly.
I don't see any modeling tool out there that does that.
uman
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Posted: 24th Feb 2005 05:14
I have forgone the segment editor and what I am doing is using .x file entities for tunnels, corridor shapes and alike. Then just placing them in situ and joining together - not tried one long piece yet but may do so. Then I am mixing the new entity parts with painting of just walls or ceilings and floors with new textures where necessary - works fine.

The biggest problem with the default stuff is trying to change them - replace or removing a part of a corridor I found so I tried a complete replacement work around. FPSC did not like me trying to replace a corridor floor at all.

I dont think getting some of our own segments and entities (characters and animation for instance) has exactly been made easy for those who want to do something different with FPSC. In fact its so hard it defeats the object of the product, but much can be done - its just very time consuming and difficult as many are finding.

The nice folks at TGC might look to help out here with a development of some of those missing tools. Maybe

Noldor
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Posted: 24th Feb 2005 05:23
You can see some of my progress on editing segments (a corridor)
without the segment editor. I only use lightwave, fpe scripts and
Deep exploration.
You can see it here
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_read&i=24
and here
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=49018&b=24

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