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Geek Culture / 0=1, I know it sounds crazy but it works

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 04:42 Edited at: 27th Feb 2005 20:23
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Hello people.

A few months ago the good ole claims that 1=2 was going around.
Tonight i have discovered 0=1 (In SOME situations)

in this post the * symbol represents SQUARED as in 2*=4 3*=9 etc.
ok lets take this expression

A=B+1

right, so now we multiply by A-B

A(A-B)=(B+1)(A-B)

which is expanded out as

A*-AB=AB-B*+A-B

then we subtract an A from the right hand side, so we do the same to the left

A*-AB-A=AB-B*-B

if we then factorise that becomes

A(A-B-1)=B(A-B-1)

if we divide by (A-B-1) we end up with the expression

A=B

therefore that means we can right the original expression as

B=B-1

if we then subtract a B from both sides we are left with

0=1


And thats it, theory proved.


Regards,
Rich

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David T
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 04:46
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Ive seen this before. The problem is something to do with square rooting or something - as the values of A and B are unknown.

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Neofish
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 04:53 Edited at: 25th Feb 2005 04:53
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^2 = squared, * = multiply

if A=B and B=B-1 then A=B-1 then A=B-1-1 It's not going to work (unless i've read it wrong )

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 04:54
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prove it

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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 04:58
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surely if you post here, you're a programmer, and know that ^ is the standard for powers...

x^2 = x squared.


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Rob K
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 04:58 Edited at: 25th Feb 2005 05:04
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Neat trick

For those who want to know where it goes wrong, since A=B+1, A-B-1 = 0, if you divide both sides by 0 (3rd from last stage), the result will be undefined.

Up till there, the algebra appears correct, though I may have missed something.


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DrakeX
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:09
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"surely if you post here, you're a programmer, and know that ^ is the standard for powers"

unless you use any language than BASIC, in which case ^ might mean xor, or pointer dereferencing, or absolutely nothing.

dammit rob beat me to it.

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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:09
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It's a bit like the much quicker proof that 1=2, though this version's much more cunning.

Any number multiplied by zero is zero, and zero = zero so we can write:

0 = 0
0*1 = 0*2

Now we divide both sides by 0:

1 = 2

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Neofish
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:13
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Quote: "Now we divide both sides by 0:"

No you can't

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:21
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I know that ^2 means squared but it looked neater and less complicated with *.


Oh well, one tries ones best


Regards,
Rich


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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:25
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Damn neofish I know you can't! Haha, maybe I should have put a few smilies around the place, or added [joke] tags.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:37
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The conversation going on in this thread is well beyond me.

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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:41
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Well... Powersoft posted a false proof that 0 = 1. The reason it's false is because it includes a step where he sneakily divided by zero while disguising it as A-B-1. You're not allowed to divide by zero because division is the opposite of multiplication, so if you divide something by zero and times it by zero again you should get the number you started with, but timesing by zero ALWAYS gives you zero, so there's no way you can do it.

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Neofish
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:48
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Yeah im on now....ur not tho and I haven't blocked you..

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 05:51
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Quote: " The conversation going on in this thread is well beyond me."

Indeed - he lost me after the word "Hello"

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 06:22
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Quote: "Indeed - he lost me after the word "Hello""


Dang! I was just going to post that.


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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 06:38
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He says, half an hour later...

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David T
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 06:53
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Quote: "or those who want to know where it goes wrong, since A=B+1, A-B-1 = 0, if you divide both sides by 0 (3rd from last stage), the result will be undefined."


Ah yes, that was it.

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Rob K
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 07:32
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Quote: " The conversation going on in this thread is well beyond me."


You need to spend less time in a programming forum and more time on your maths homework


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Avan Madisen
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 07:38
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I've always been pretty good at basic algebra, but I always get lost when expanding and 'factorising' as you call it. There are loads of things like this at:

http://www.ahajokes.com/math_jokes.html

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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 09:42
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There is a proof for this, however, I don't think his is correct.

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Coldnews
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Posted: 25th Feb 2005 20:32
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I had so many theories on this, started to write them all and then realised that they were all wrong.
stupidheads...

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 02:25
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Yes,

Today seeing my contact at school explained that in fact it did divide by 0. Something he did not explain before explaining it to me and something i didnt notice. So therefore i have provided a misleading thread


Sorry.

Regards,
Rich



(Hey another theory disproved....again )

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 02:50
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This one is amusing:

Little maths fact before I start: You are all familiar with 'real' numbers (eg. 0, 42, -0.5). In addition there are also 'imaginary' numbers, denoted by an i. i is the square root of -1.

The Proof That -1 = 1:

1. Since i is the square root of -1:

-1 = i*i

2. Also written as...

-1 = i^2

3. Rewrite i as sqrt(-1)

-1 = sqrt(-1) * sqrt(-1)

4. Apply surds rule

-1 = sqrt(-1 * -1)

5. -1*-1 = 1 so...

-1 = sqrt(1)

6. Leading us to the impossible conclusion that...

-1 = 1


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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 02:52
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Which is wrong because in fact when you take roots you have to put a +/- in front, as all numbers have two possible roots. In the end we find that -1 either = 1 or -1, and the choice isn't difficult. A neat trick though.

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 03:17
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That isn't quite the answer I was looking for, but it is also correct.


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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 03:42
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So... The surd rule doesn't apply to complex numbers? I'm pretty sure it's all ok up to step 3, but step 4 can't be right except with the +/- thing I mentioned because clearly sqrt(1)=1 and -1 doesn't = 1.

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Rob K
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 03:44
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Quote: " The surd rule doesn't apply to complex numbers? "


Correct.


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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 03:47 Edited at: 26th Feb 2005 03:50
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Why is that?

EDIT - Actually ignore that, I worked it out for myself on a bit of paper.

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Peter H
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 04:50 Edited at: 26th Feb 2005 04:54
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Quote: "A(A-B)=B+1(A-B)
which is expanded out as

A*-AB=AB-B*+A-B
"


B+1(A-B) does NOT factor out to AB-B*+A-B it factors out to B+A-B which is A

so in fact you never get to dividing by zero..you're algebra is flawed waaay early

[edit] unless you forgot some parenthesis...which i now see you did

i see you meant (B+1)*(A-B)

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 05:15
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Quote: "5. -1*-1 = 1 so..."


.... -1 times -1?


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David T
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 05:59
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Does indeed equal 1...

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mm0zct
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 06:58
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alt+num0+num1+num7+num8=²
alt+num0+num1+num7+num9=³
hold alt and tap the numbers, not as confusing as using * instead and neater than ^2 or ^3

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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 07:19
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@Peter - in fact the only mistake (apart from the divide by zero) is one step before the end where he wrote B=B-1 instead of B=B+1

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Neofish
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 07:57 Edited at: 26th Feb 2005 08:00
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Quote: "-1 = sqrt(-1 * -1)

5. -1*-1 = 1 so..."

surely that should be:
-1 = sqrt(-1*-1) // square both sides
-1*-1 = -1*-1 OR 1 = 1....



also my dad said you cant use i as an equation, its more of a constant with the value of sqrt(-1)...

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Los
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 12:50
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you must be able to do some real cool stuff with your maths. like splines and bendy graph lines. I on the other hand, only know y = x³

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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 26th Feb 2005 20:34
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Neofish - he didn't square both sides, he was simplifying the expression in the brackets and then square rooting. The problem in that step is the one I pointed out, that when square rooting like that you have to take positive and negative roots so that -1 = either 1 or -1.

I'm not sure I understand what your dad means by not being allowed to use i as an equation. Of course you can't use it as an equation, that would be like using 2 as an equation - it's meaningless. i is a number. But none us us used i as an equation, we just used it in some equations, which is obviously ok. Take the famous equation e^(pi*i)+1=0, or De Moivre's theorem - (cos a + i sin a)^n = cos na + i sin na. i would be pretty useless if you couldn't use it in equations!

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 27th Feb 2005 01:52
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Quote: "right, so now we multiply by A-B

A(A-B)=B+1(A-B)"


surely multiplying both sides by A-B would make it:

A(A-B)=(B+1)(A-B)

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eat much pie
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Posted: 27th Feb 2005 04:41
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Right then; what to critisice first?

@ Powersoft
Quote: "
A=B+1

right, so now we multiply by A-B

A(A-B)=B+1(A-B)
"


if you wanted to multiply both sides by (A-B), then you would end up with this:

A(A-B)=(B+1)(A-B)

Note that B+1 is in brackets, as you must multiply the entirety of that side by A-B.
I didn't look at the rest of your formulae because if the first part is wrong, then the following parts are pretty useless


@ RobK

It is true that you can work out the square root of -1, but only in calculus. The symbol 'i' is used in complex formulae to cancel out equally dubious mathmatical paradoxes, but you cannot use it in the manner in which you used it.

Sorry to burst your bubble(s), but it's all in the name of maths!


(by the way, I did the UK Maths Challenge and got a score of 87; the highest in my school, so if anyone has an opposition to my reasoning, BRING IT ON!)

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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isnt that what i just said?

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eat much pie
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Posted: 27th Feb 2005 04:52
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Dammit! Why o why didn't I read the entire thread!

Well, I don't think anyone said anything about Robk's thing (scrolls up to check posts)

a slightly more humbled eatmuchpie

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 27th Feb 2005 20:23
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i realised that i was indeed a typo after i was corrected at school. Will change.

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Rob K
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Posted: 27th Feb 2005 22:18
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Quote: "It is true that you can work out the square root of -1, but only in calculus. The symbol 'i' is used in complex formulae to cancel out equally dubious mathmatical paradoxes, but you cannot use it in the manner in which you used it.

Sorry to burst your bubble(s), but it's all in the name of maths!"


Obviously I cannot use it as I did, since the end result is incorrect, but a more helpful explanation of what goes wrong was posted earlier: sqrt(a)*sqrt(b)=sqrt(a*b) is not true for complex numbers.


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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 04:38
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@eat much pie - Wow, you really are an arrogant sod. Yes, he missed out some brackets. He still expanded as if the brackets were there though, it's what's called a typo, get over it. i has uses way outside calculus. Sure it's useful in calculus, but at heart it's the foundation of a whole different class of numbers, not simply used to cancel out 'dubious' mathematical 'paradoxes'. It's a hugely useful tool, and not even particularly dubious. Also, I doubt if anyone gives a rotten raspberry if you got the highest score in your school in maths challenge.

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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 05:07
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@Monsieur - Don't get personal on these forums or I'll have to lock this thread.

Have a coffee:


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Rob K
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 05:07
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Quote: "by the way, I did the UK Maths Challenge and got a score of 87; the highest in my school, so if anyone has an opposition to my reasoning, BRING IT ON"


Not bad, I presume you mean the Senior Challenge? Is that a Bronze or Silver award?


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Neofish
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 05:16
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2 = 3 because 2 + 2 = 5 so one of the twos must equal 3

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GothOtaku
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 05:17
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Quote: " 2 = 3 because 2 + 2 = 5 so one of the twos must equal 3"

Yep, remember 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
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Neofish
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 05:18
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Yeah i knew someone would say that

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Monsieur Mort
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Posted: 28th Feb 2005 06:01 Edited at: 28th Feb 2005 06:06
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EDIT - oops, thought the last one didn't post

Oh well, I may as well use this post to apologise for the last one, there's no need to lock the thread, that post just really bugged me. Also, I wouldn't have complained about it had I seen the 'humbled eat much pie' post at the top of this page - for some reason I was only being linked to the previous page of posts so I didn't see it.

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