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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Give BSP a chance!!!

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the architect
22
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Joined: 6th Jan 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 29th Jan 2003 11:29
I have had heard mutterings about BSP levels and their usage in DBPro. I have struggled the last few weeks to get a good system going for BSP and radiosity compilation in Quarke. I have finally achieved this and I must say it is well worth the effort. I hope to post some screen shots soon of my first level.

I would hate people togive BSP such bad posts and find it negelected for the sake of other methods of level editing.
Lee Bamber assures us it will be improved in Patch 5 and it is already far superior than it was before patch 1.

Just persevere as I did. BSP will work.
Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 29th Jan 2003 23:45
Alot of people have been BSP bashing, and although recent comments from myself could also be consider'd such.

I've mentioned quite a bit the BSP isn't the ONLY way to achieve levels.
For example you have no real control over the accessing of BSP - and no doubt this will change in patch5

but games have been put off for almost a YEAR in the wait for professional, and what i keep saying is rather than sitting on your hands not learning anything new and pushing forward with projects. Actually build your own formats because it is more than likely that BSP isn't going to be suited.

For example RPG's would be a waste of time unless you made them linear, which would defeat the point of an RPG would it not?

Why you ask? Because BSP isn't suited to open worlds nor is it too good for larger worlds ... and with no entity scripting as at present this means that you have to remake certain aspects by hand anyways.

It saves alot of time and headaches that unless your making an FPS style game simply to develop your own format or use and existing one which is better suited suchas UV Worlds which you can actually redevelop for your own needs.

So ya know, not saying it won't work - or isn't planned to work, just saying that it isn't really worth waiting for.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
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Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 30th Jan 2003 00:04
BSP works fine in DBPro. There are a few geometry problems with some shapes but generally it works pretty well. I recommend it if:

1) You are doing an indoor game

2) Speed is important (BSPs are fast)

3) You want very easy collision (and collision with BSPs is very easy in DBP)

However, as Raven said, you don't have a great deal of flexibility with BSPs.

They are really suited only to first person games (of any kind - eg: Quake 3 / Thief) and indoor third person ones (eg: Harry Potter)

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
InSiDeR
22
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Joined: 12th Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 30th Jan 2003 05:37
BSP is easy in DBPro,
if you cant get it working your a TOTAL N00B

lol

DBS made is especially easy too, theres not much to it really

InSiDeR
Visit the NEW DBPlanet, Click Here
"...Yay i got one strap loose..."
Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 30th Jan 2003 07:19
... i kinda feel insulted ...
i've had ALOT of problems with BSP in pro - but then i only did a few trials from demo1

not really felt the need to use them, was having more fun getting quake2 bsp into DarkBasic Enhanced
probably should sometime release the results, i kept meaning to email Lee than cause of the help he gave with something.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Necrym
22
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Joined: 4th Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 30th Jan 2003 11:36
BSP's are ok but dont expect tooo much from them in the way of big outdoor areas. Im using x for my outdoor areas and bsp for indoor its a good compromise. Also unless you can include the coordinates of moving objects etc so you can use them in your bsp its only scenery so an x file could suffice and at the moment offers a bit more flexibility.

Watch the bouncing cursor - now in 3d
Fluffy Paul
22
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Joined: 16th Dec 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 30th Jan 2003 16:39
BSP is only suitable for objects that do not move or deform as it calculates what polygons are visible from any other part of the mesh. You can do very large maps - but they won't work very well if you can see from one end to the other.
The trick is to make sure the maps are "busy" so that, whilst potentily very large, you can't see much of it at once. BSP is briliant at urban areas as you can move from indoor to outdoor with very little performance difference and it's still the same BSP object. Necrym is absolutely right that open areas of terrain are best done in .x format as .x format just plonks the whole mesh on the screen, no messing around calculating what bit you can see or not. This sacrifices memory space to get reduced CPU load - so it's still cool as modern machines tend to have more memory anyway and better behaviour when hitting the swap file!

Ending a sentence with a French word is so passé
Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 30th Jan 2003 17:14
Nope... you get more CPU load as well, because BSP works form array bit information - saying either a visible portal is either well visible or not ...
8 nodes per byte which make a leaf, and a leaf is a section of potentially visible polygons which have a beam bounced off them to find out which are visible - blah blah.

As the format was designed original with indoor arenas in mind it is perfect and warrents little CPU charge, however the Memory space is intense as hell!

whereas the DirectX files use relatively less space in comparison (almost 90% less!!)

however the DirectX level of 20,000 polygons will render ALL 20,000 at once (which yes is fine for new processors) - however is just outstandingly unfair on older users.

I've found a way around the BSP limitations, and fmtBSP v9 is on the way - but converting everything to binary from bytes and dwords is going to be tough

looks like my format will go from 60Mb for a 30,000 polygon world to almost 20Mb - just based on the preliminary tests. Ofcourse the real test is will gameMatrix be able to handle it properly, the tricky part with building a BSP/Model editor within DarkBasic Pro is the tricks i've used in C++ as of late are ALOT harder to perform to create a decent pipeline that will speed up the rendering of worlds but at the same time not slow the actual program too greatly

currently using an edited Qoole Render Tree, with a few tweaks is rendering around 100,000 polygons happily - big test is when this project is finally compiled within Pro Retail

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
the architect
22
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Joined: 6th Jan 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 31st Jan 2003 11:41
At the moment BSP seems tobe the best way forward for the game I am writing. If I were writing a flight sim or a racing game it would not be my method of choice.
It does seem though that telling people its rubbish and don' use it at all is the bad way to go about with advice.
Using matrix, objects etc for level design using dark basic is fine and I have done it myself but it does mean you lose out on some very nice lighting effects.
If Lee Bamber pushes BSP enough so that you can control brightness and fog in a BSP world that would suit me to the ground. I'm sure given time all our headaches are going to be cured.

Shadow Robert
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 31st Jan 2003 18:22
well i'm not saying not to use BSP ... i'm just saying don't expect miricles from it.
For Half-Life or Quake3 akin games where the action is compressed it is great, not so good for really much else.
I mean it is possible to get around the limitations, but you have to actually know what your doing to do so - but which time you'll probably understand howto make your own format.

If you combine the limitations with the limitations of the geometry building - i mean remember ALOT of people here haven't even thought about building worlds in BSP before and those who have, have been working towards a single development platform.
When you're creating something new suchas say a Tomb Raider Clone (which would be more than possible) people just won't be comfortable enough with the creation programs and it will be a long an arduous task.

Also until GuyS releases his Entity Commands you had to know howto access these yourself and more to the point translate the code that accompanied them.
That in itself isn't a simple task.
Hand Placing entities suchas wall gripp walls certainly isn't simple, not setting up the collision to use it as the base.

I'd rather people actually got along with developing thier own formats for thier own use, rather than be disillusioned that BSP is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It's useful, but only if you understand its usefulness!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!

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