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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / USB Dongle

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SoulMan
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 22:35
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Uhhh Interesting.
I just saw the Dongle for $59.99.
That's not bad for an idea.
Only problem is that the hackers are going to get the drivers for it, hack them and release a ripped version of Dark Basic Pro for download.
That is what happened with 3D Studio Max 2,3,4 and many other programs out there.
Just hope Dark Basic Pro isn't one of them.
SoulMan
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 22:42
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Depends on how well the code is protected - redundant code, encryption, false leads, multiple checks etc..

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 22:54
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what the hell is a dongle?

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SoulMan
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 22:57
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It's a hardware device that you can put on your computer to verify you are running a legal copy of software.
Look here.
http://www.darkbasicpro.com/usb.php
This might help more
SoulMan

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 23:04
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Did you know (if your good at blagging anyway), the DESKey SDK system from free - the manual gives good advice on encrypting code, data as code, code as data tips.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 23:23
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interesting
for £30 ... i dunno if its completely worth it (atleast for my own use standpoint) - but then again i could just use any old machine with this version of Pro on it.

Certainly would be a consideration if they packaged it WITH pro for a discount - say Pro + USB DeveloperKey for say £70 ($110)
That'd then probably be well worth it.

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firestarter
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 23:32
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Soulman: The crackers crack everything also DB Pro. Such is life, i noticed that a program that a friend of mine have made (pretty unknown painting program) also got cracked. It seems that they crack everything and they make it every damn time. WinXP got cracked "easily", but in the media it said it was almost uncrackable.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st Jan 2003 23:39
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WinXP is uncrackable ... unless you get ahold of the Source Code which :: hold checks as if suprised :: what did all the hackers get ahold of!

And for saying they used the source code, it's actually funny how most of them don't work they're just a quick hack around the problem
which has been noted before you defrag your HDD the hacks are gone

Professional isn't exactly the hardest thing you could crack - however it is mostly likely that the source is a breach contained.

Means that if anyone tampers with it post compiling then it automatically becomes useless ... and as Professional is actually 3 sets of source acting independantly until compiling - well that just makes it even harder
For alot of these so-called hackers, the setup would be too much, and those who could do it ... wouldn't even bother.

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SoulMan
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 00:18
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Uhh
Actually, with Pro, all one needs is a good CD Copying program.
That breaks the secure disc format thing.
Uhh,
Yeah.
I guess.
SoulMan

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SoulMan
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 00:21
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Oh by the way, with Windows XP, all you need is the ones that businesses use. They have no form of authentication.
SoulMan

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pathfinder
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 00:28
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um so we pay x amount to stop DBpro from being nagware. I think Ill pass perhaps its better to put £30 on top of the price of DBpro and you get the dongle, without it, the program will not run.

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 00:32
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"WinXP is uncrackable ... unless you get ahold of the Source Code which :: hold checks as if suprised :: what did all the hackers get ahold of!"

I have told you before and I will tell you again - WinXP is NOT uncrackable. MS certainly put a lot of effort into protecting it but it was cracked very quickly. Within 2 days of release - a hack was available for every version - I seriously doubt that hackers got the source code only 2 days after release.

The hackers were also intelligent - WPA relies on a lot of VERY complicated maths to work, a lot of hackers just disabled the whole check. Yes, an activation no. generator was not created - but what is the point if there is a far easier solution?

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 02:39
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Nothing is uncrackable - if the protection is too hard to crack, you just disassemble the code and remove it alltogether taking the checksums as you go. I don't believe anyone will ever release a non-crackable program because the moment your PC breaks it down and executes it - it makes it vulnerable.

The dongle is a protection aid, it's an "annoyance" preventation aid But even then it was introduced because the Universities that use DBPro requested it - we thought that some developers might like it too though so we make it publically available, but firstmost and foremost unless you're an educational establishment or an avid DBPro coder you can probably live without it.

"Only problem is that the hackers are going to get the drivers for it, hack them and release a ripped version of Dark Basic Pro for download."

No, they'd have to distribute the whole of DBPro for this to work (all 300megs of it) which turns it into "warez" not a "crack". Cracks are easy to find on the net, full on proper sized apps are another matter (I'm not saying it's impossible, but unless you know your stuff they are MUCH harder to find).

Cheers,

Rich

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 02:49
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If DBS's current anti-piracy efforts are anything to go by then there isn't much point in them at all.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 02:49
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*cough* Blitz's BUID system was a much more effective method *cough*

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 04:08
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Shader... the source was leaked 4months before release, or did you miss the whole fuss that Microsoft kicked up about it?

Because Mircosoft found out several days after release when they found out that it had been completely hacked.
And i'd agree that just taking out the offending Authentication features would be an option if they weren't intertied into the Bootup Environment and FileSystem.

You try to take them out you've just fudged up your whole system. This is why the hackers who've worked around it have used the Source, most of which admit that the source was stolen and was used as thier base.

It was given to professional Hackers who tried for 6months to break the core ... with zero sucess.
To me that would say unhackable - but then thats just me.

As for the DevelopersKey (i prefer it to dongle) i think you're missing that it wouldn't be simply the Drivers you have to copy. Professional is what checks for what is incomming and the drivers pass the binary code on after translating. But you need to understand the code's setup because Pro is only setup to Read it, the Driver to Make it Assembly readable, so really you'd also have to crack open the DevelopersKey and find out what Chip and board setup they're using plus no doubt each one is developed with a unique code for that particular copy of Pro

Think its a pretty novel if not Cool idea

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indi
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 06:08
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wow u didnt know what a dongle was!

AutoDesk here in Sydney just swallowed up the Discreet Office again, discreet must be saving money by being part of the autodesk office space again since they are parent company.

Ben a friend of mine was using autodesk products ages ago and that was my first experience with a version of max.

it was a printer port dongle and then there was one between the keyboard and the pc.

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 06:10
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i'd heard the expression but never knew it was actual technology ... kinda one of those things your mate tell ya and you think "yeah yeah your pullin' my leg arn't ya?"

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indi
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 06:29
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hehe I must admitt When I saw it it looked like a expansion plug or conversion plug u may see around, nothing pretty to look at.

They just dont use them anymore as much as the older days.

Some versions of Quark needed a dongle also in the darkages

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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indi
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 06:30
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/Quark Express ok not Quake Army knife

http://www.lunarpixel.com

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 07:16
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Yeah does look a bit like one doesn't it ... not that far off what my PS/2 -> USB Converters look like

Hehee if it was Quake Army Knife i'd be wondering what the hell a freeware product would need with a product activator

ya know what i just realised, wouldn't it make more sense for Microsoft to use one for authenticating Windows?
I mean if the drivers are done at a time when people can't actaully use access software, say bootup having it built into the CDRom Boot Sequence - it'd be a hellofa lot harder for people to simply pirate wouldn't it?

They could just release the software CD for say $20 but then gauge you for a dongle say $120 (wouldn't be far of XP's price) that way less piracy, just slightly higher costs for producing them... but as everyone would HAVE to buy one, i mean it'd be a bitch at the best of times to emulate a CD bootup - i've tried so many time with software to make it and thats a Hit'n'Miss affair it think its every 3-4cds out of 10 will actually bootup. No reason for not the others i assume are identical just don't want to bootup lol
Well thats just my thought on it

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haggisman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 12:01
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*cough* Blitz's BUID system was a much more effective method *cough*

lol, well umm.. without it you cant umm... access their forums. Piracy prevention at its best there, maybe not.

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 14:08
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@Raven

I think we'll leave the XP security debate here for now - I'll make my judgement based on what happens to the next in line - Longhorn

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 15:48
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Personally I'd love for each and every copy of DB/DBPro to have had a unique ID/serial number. But it's not possible when you've got worldwide publishers each doing things their own way, book deals, etc. Blitz can do it because they have 1 publisher and can control that.

I also don't agree with having forums only for owners of the product - how does that help people who want to ask questions before shelling out $99 of their hard earned cash? I can see why you would have a private forum (save on bandwidth, keep out various types of trouble, etc) but it should always have public versions too. Or just a very good support email line.

Cheers,

Rich

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 17:32
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Just because I suggested a DBUID doesn't mean that I want the forums restricted like Blitz. The DBUID would be required for updgrading the retail version using the latest patches - so anybody with a pirate copy would not be able to use DBP fully.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 17:34
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Also - why are you charging $60 for a dongle ?!?! - A dongle should be $10 maximum.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 18:45
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Rich wrote:

I also don't agree with having forums only for owners of the product - how does that help people who want to ask questions before shelling out $99 of their hard earned cash? I can see why you would have a private forum (save on bandwidth, keep out various types of trouble, etc) but it should always have public versions too. Or just a very good support email line.

Yeah, I agree. A while back, the 3D RAD forums were locked to the general public...you couldn't talk to anybody who was "in the know" because they did such an effective job of insulating the user community from potential customers. So you essentially had to gamble on just the information on their website.

Most of it was, well, more enthusiastic than true. To hear how they described their program, you'd think it was also capable of cooking, doing the laundry, and performing certain types of oral services.

If I'd been able to visit their forum and talk to the existing users before buying it, I wouldn't have wasted all that money on it.

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haggisman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 18:59
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How would a DBUID stop the pirates from upgrading?

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 20:14
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Shader the BlitzUDI isn't anything special and is VERY easily cracked ... you find someone who has blitz, get ahold of thier internet out port (usually 80) and then download the data as they sign onto the Blitz Site.

This gives you thier access permission, from that is quite a simple case of using an Access Hacker to grab thier ID and incorporate it within Blitz using a standard Hex Hack

Really the Microsoft Activation Key is a far more advanced version of Blitz is using - and if you're not willing to call Microsofts good i don't see how you could say that Blitz's either.

And agree with Rich one of the biggest turn offs about using Blitz is that you have to purchase the product to get any help of any sort.
Even then thier forums are hardly Mr. Friendly

As it stands i know of several people with Hacked Blitz - yet no one with a Hacked Pro ... you could copy the CD to get the full version working - but as Rich said that 400Mb, and quite frankly as i've seen Visual C++ and alike on the net at something like 150-oddMb if i was to download a language and copy it to CD i'd go for the professionally used on than the Basic one.

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 20:20
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"yet no one with a Hacked Pro "

DBPro uses SafeDisc 2.6x - The anti-piracy measures of which are respectable but not exactly fantastic. If you are referring to warez copies then no - but I don't think that protection is the main reason.

Mind you - you only actually need about 20MB of files for the core (compiler + plugins + editor) of DBP to run it. You can of course compile without the help files.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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GuySavoie
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 21:15
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>I also don't agree with having forums only for owners of
>the product - how does that help people who want to ask
>questions before shelling out $99 of their hard earned
>cash?

Or $145 US in their case. Retail DBPro and three months of DBDN is still cheaper.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 21:34
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there something else on the CD ... because i made a backup of it with just the core components onto a Mini-CD and it didn't work. you do need the WHOLE 400mb for it to work.

Just did an image copy and it did work, but i dunno - i mean as i said, i've not heard of any cases of Pro being ripped because quite frankly its too much hassle.
Perhaps not the greatest measures, but they certainly keep most people out.

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 21:51
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Full Apps are not easy to find working as Warez on the Net, but it would be damned easy for people to Share DBPro via P2P eg Kazaa.

That said the adverage user of DBPro would have no queries about paying for the software. Its a reasonable price and they presumably want to develop software ppl will pay for, so Karma an all that Personally I'd never use a pirated operating system or programming language, that seems toooooo ironic

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 22:57
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"there something else on the CD ... because i made a backup of it with just the core components onto a Mini-CD and it didn't work. you do need the WHOLE 400mb for it to work."

Yes... from sectors 810 to 10000 on the disc there are so called "weak sectors" and bad sectors. The weak sectors cannot be burned correctly by many writers so a copy fails. Bad sectors stops some software. I can't say much except to say that the fault lies in that DBS used a very popular system (SD2.6x)

"How would a DBUID stop the pirates from upgrading?"

You make the downloads only available to DBUID owners and, optionally, you could get the setup file to do a rough (ie. a format check only, not a complete and accurate check) check on the DBUID before permitting install.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 22:59
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As K2 said though, £50 is a pretty good price for DBP (only DBS seems to charge £70 for the full thing - Amazon / UK stores sell for £50). On the other hand we tend to have to pay for upgrades more than users of other software - eg Maplet was free, CShop wasn't.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Shadow Robert
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Yeah but those so-called upgrades are only endorsements from DBS not developed as part or for them

The point about the disc copy is a Mini-CD can only hold 120Mb of data (unless you use Joilet 80min setup) and i copied the main components, exactly like i did with DarkBasic Standard ... but until i just did a straight image copy it didn't work.

I use the EasyCD5 Platinum Developer, which allows me alot of leaway with creating CD and such - also allows me to get around alot of the Anti-Copy things ... but what i'm telling you is that there is a file which is essential to the Registration which isn't part of the core or image of the CD, my guess is that the Core actually checks to make sure ALL of the installation CABs are intact.

Meaning you can't simply do what you can with Max and delete anything not nessary and install anyway with less options.


Blitz User ID is not infalliable and is infact pretty easily hacked... a very stupid way of going about business if you ask me to boot. I mean think about it.

If you gave people the ability to download new things based on an ID to make it portable enough you'd have to allow them to plug it in anywhere - which allows them to just give it out.
Or you can keep it enclosed to requiring the CD or installed copies and then people will not like not being able to have access to area's which they've paid for when they're not at home or something.

When you look at the setup that each company has, you can't simply have something that will work for one and not for another ... but that aside why would DBS want to emulate a system for a product which doesn't sell as well?

Surely they'd want to emulate a company which actually does more business than themselves, which they appear to be doing "DBDN"
And personally i think they're approach is just fine

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Rob K
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"EasyCD5 Platinum Developer"

EasyCD is the absolute worst program for beating copy protections on CDs that every existed. Use CloneCD or best of all, Alcohol 120% - something a little stronger

As for why DBP sells better:

1) DBS are much better at marketing - they know how to advertise a product and get it noticed (better than the competitor anyway). DBS use extremely misleading advertising at times. The Blitz packaging is also crap.

Mark Sibly is constantly arguing with Idigicon.

2) Simplicity - Blitz is more complicated in areas. For example, if you want to get the FPS in Blitz you actually have to write the timer code - in DB it is just Screen FPS()

3) Demos - The Blitz demo won't let you create exes, so people don't create something in the demo give it to other people who then use Blitz.

4) Community - I believe (as I in fact pointed out earlier) that restricting the official forums to BUID owners is a really bad idea as potential customers can't ask the pros easily or post their work for appreciation.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Necrym
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 02:27
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Just a note about the dongle. These are awkward things to crack it wont be a easy as some think. The dongle interacts with a specifically idividual compiled version of dbp and is locked to that copy only - its not generic usually.

Watch the bouncing cursor - now in 3d
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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 02:32
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"specifically idividual compiled version of dbp and is locked to that copy only"

Did DBS write the anti-piracy code for the dongle? I presumed that the dongle manufacturer would provide an executable wraparound for the affected exe.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 03:35
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Shader thats assuming that DBS didn't design it themselves - i mean i've been looking over the USB specs recently and making something like this wouldn't be greatly hard

As for EasyCD being bad at getting around things - i also have CloneCD, NeroBurn, and a whole host of truely terrible CD writer programs... and none i have actually have an SDK like EasyCD to develop your own stuff, the plugins are nowhere close to as compatible as you'd like.

And i notice that most people seem to put down the big brands however never really give them a chance for anything - they just hit a little snag or believe whatever they hear on the Net about them without ever using them.
As far as CD/DvD writing software goes EasyCD is by far the best with the widest range of CDR/RW/DvDR/RW Drives.
Oftenly i never have a problem, kinda sick and tired of people saying "oh it crap" just to find out a little while later they never used the bloody thing.

Same can be said about the "WinXP Cracked" argument here ... unless you've seen the source code and talked to some of the hackers i don't see how you'd know that WinXP or ANY XP product come to mention it is like "SOOOO easily hackable!"

And if XP is so easily hacked how come its only the OS's which have been hacked?
you notice the Office Products you only have tools to unlock the Professional Edition (which simply requires a key) ... from what i've seen, even with the source code the hackers have done a piss poor job - and quite frankly if this time they keep Windows .Net's source away from the public i can almost guarentee that there will be non of this "oh i've hacked windows" business.

Same goes for Pro, you might laugh at what they've done to keep it safe but how many people do you know with pirated versions?
From what i've actually done myself would lead to tell me that more thought was put into the protection than is just apparent.

I think i'm gonna learn more about these Dongle's find out some more about them like what can be achieved - cause they're now begining to interest me

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 12:29
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"Also - why are you charging $60 for a dongle ?!?! - A dongle should be $10 maximum."

Sorry but you obviously have no idea how much it costs to purchase those things on such a small scale. I dare say 3D Studio absorbs the cost somewhere in the very expensive price of their package.

"Did DBS write the anti-piracy code for the dongle? I presumed that the dongle manufacturer would provide an executable wraparound for the affected exe."

Every time you compile DBP will check for the presence of the dongle itself, there is no wrapper EXE. You must of course have the dongle drivers installed though. This doesn't mean for a second it's not hackable - but that wasn't the objective of the dongle anyway and anyone who things we've released it just for "anti-piracy" measures is sorely mistaken. It's for less hassle for Universities basically, that's it - but this extends to other developers too if they want it. Enough said. No more questions on this matter, it's not up for debate!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 15:46
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@Raven

Stop it with the XP debate! - This could go on for a long time. For now I propose that we leave it here and see what happens to Longhorn - Then I will make my judgement.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 18:28
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lol ... yeah oki i 'spose

as for the dongle, surely is an anti-pirate measure ... oki perhaps not in the purest of senses, but it was designed to make sure that the "Student" Version can't simply be taken from the computers because of requiring CDs - this means the Uni's and Colleges are secure they won't be ripped off by the students, and it also prevents the "i've forgotten my CD" scenario
so yes there to save time, but at the end of the day its just there to replace the CD check - which would be anti-piracy yes?

hehee i mean ya its there to make life easier, but to make life easier around the product not being stolen.

think about it even if it is nicked from a college computer, someone gets it home - it ain't gonna work within the dongle thingie, which in turn won't work without the drives.

i dunno, just really seems the main point of all of this ... but that aside doesn't stop me wondering about a possible use for these thingies where they are used with more protection than pure drivers

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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heartbone
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 20:23
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What a STUPID waste of DarkBASIC Software's time, resources and energy!

I'm no hacker, but I can practically GUARANTEE that
there will be a SOFTWARE DONGLE based on this device.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 20:51
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"as for the dongle, surely is an anti-pirate measure ... oki perhaps not in the purest of senses, but it was designed to make sure that the "Student" Version can't simply be taken from the computers because of requiring CDs"

Not at all - it was introduced so that lecturers didn't have to dish out CDs to everyone when they wanted to compile each lesson. The dongle sits on a main server which deals with compile requests, authorises properly and allows it. The DBPs on each computer act as clients.

"I'm no hacker, but I can practically GUARANTEE that
there will be a SOFTWARE DONGLE based on this device."

They'd have to buy one first, then hack it apart (fair enough - possible), THEN distribute the version of DBPro that comes with the dongle because just the "software dongle" hack alone will not work on your PC. You have to have the new version of DBPro that comes with it too - so we're back to the same old "it's not a crack you need, it's a warez release" which, quite frankly, isn't a problem for us. Why? because if someone is going to go out of their way, and has the contacts, to obtain a warez release of DBPro then they're going to do so anyway.

Cracks cause us problems, warez CDs do not because those people were never potential customers in the first place and you will not be able to build a crack from this dongle without getting a warez copy of the CD it comes with.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 22:57
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Rich - You seem to be watching this topic so on a completely unrelated note - what did Lee & Co. say about object alpha levels?

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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2_bits_short_of_a_byte
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 01:10
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rich -> "how does that help people who want to ask questions before shelling out $99 of their hard earned cash?" - There is a public forum on blitzbasic.com which allow people to do just that - if they want to ask a question before they buy they can ask it there

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