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Geek Culture / Bush Checking With Our ISP

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Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:41
Quote: "I think the government should've used ALL the information they already had to prevent it."


All the info the had when, 5 minutes before? 2 days before? It's a pro-active campaign to prevent this stuff from happening, that's the only way to do it. They can't sit there and wait for the information to come to them. They did that with Iraq.

Tell me, if you play Counter-strike, do you play on the terrorist or counter-terrorist side? If you play on the CT side, do you wait for the bomb to go off before you fire your weapon?

That may seem to be a very nerdulent question, but it has a point.

Quote: "Even then, not all tragedy's can be prevented. "


But when they can at the sacrifice of a few people's privacy it is a good thing. No, trust me, it is.

Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:41 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 03:43
I'm not arguing that it's fine for government to invade our privacy for minor cases, such as an old lady MSN'ing her grandson about the great Hank Williams Sr. MP3 she found But in all honesty, there's probably numerous instances of the government saving our behinds because they discovered (through whatever measures) a heinous crime and thwarted it before it happened. We probably don't know of even 1% of the cases.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
David R
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:42
But that's my point - its not 'you should' or 'should not', its 'you would' - doens't matter how much of a view you have, you would still most likely end up doing something like that

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:44
@Lightning - Who and what are you talking about and arguing against? Can't figure out if it's Leys or the rest of us.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:46 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 03:48
Quote: "But in all honesty, there's probably numerous instances of the government saving our behinds because they discovered (through whatever measures) a heinous crime and thwarted it before it happened. We probably don't know of even 1% of the cases."


Obviously, and apparently they have been doing a fine job. But have you noticed how the government is gaining more and more rights to do whatever they want to their people? The US government is not supposed to own those who it governs, they are supposed to serve the people. People are obviously mistaking what im saying here, there are certain circumstances where the government has to do what it has to do, but at the rate things are currently going, every little thing you do will be documented in government files. People will eventually have NO freedom and we will not be any better of then some of those dictator countries. THIS is where my problem is.

Quote: " you would still most likely end up doing something like that"

Maybe you'll refuse to believe it, but in your hypethetical(sp?) situation, I would not discriminate against a particular group simple because a select few in that said group decide to do something bad. It is against everything I believe, so no, I would NOT do the same thing.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:51
How is documented actions a loss of all freedoms? That's what I'm trying to understand here. If you aren't involved in illegal activity or suspected to be, then this supposed invasion of privacy that will run A MUCK in the future won't affect your life... AT ALL.

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:55
Quote: "How is documented actions a loss of all freedoms? That's what I'm trying to understand here. If you aren't involved in illegal activity or suspected to be, then this supposed invasion of privacy that will run A MUCK in the future won't affect your life... AT AL"


It's the principle of it. Obviously, what I wish would happen, will in fact never happen but I just think people should have the right to keep their information private if they wish, whether or not it will ever affect them.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
SoulMan
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 03:59
Hey!
Don't knock on President Bush. He's at least trying to get some good accomplished. Unlike that phony Clinton. Clinton did crap while in office and rode the huge economic gains that Reagan had setup in the 80's. He cut the military, had Osama Bin Laden in his hands and decided to fool around with another women. At least Bush is a good man. Now if you ask me though, I think there are some problems with the current system. That's why I am in the process of forming of a new politcal party. The Tech Party of America.
http://techpartyofamerica.blogspot.com
Check it out and let me know.
Thanks.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
Neofish
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:01
Quote: "Quote: "Riiiight--- so wait until the bomb explodes and kills 50 people. *Then* invade said bomber's privacy. Ahhh ok, not *before* the bomb goes off."
If that's how you want to look at it, then yes."

If those people are unimportant it doesn't matter

Pi = 8
Peter H
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:01
Quote: "It's the principle of it"

what principle though????

you didn't answer jimmy's question at all

"We make the worst games in the universe."

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:02 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 04:10
Quote: " Hey!
Don't knock on President Bush. He's at least trying to get some good accomplished. Unlike that phony Clinton. Clinton did crap while in office and rode the huge economic gains that Reagan had setup in the 80's. He cut the military, had Osama Bin Laden in his hands and decided to fool around with another women. At least Bush is a good man. Now if you ask me though, I think there are some problems with the current system. That's why I am in the process of forming of a new politcal party. The Tech Party of America.
http://techpartyofamerica.blogspot.com"


Other than the ISP part, I have been talking about the government in general, not just Bush. Yes I agree Clinton was a piece of **** also. As for your new party, sweet.

Quote: "Is that so much to give up just to protect you?"

Yes, yes it is. As for the paranoid part, every time someone's belief is not the majority belief, there is always something wrong with them eh? Like paranoia. What's new.

Quote: "you didn't answer jimmy's question at all"

How is all of our information documented a loss of ALL freedom's?
I had never said it was. Just a loss of privacy, which is quite important to me. When we get to the point where every little thing you do is recorded, it will not be so good. You may think(and probably do) that im a crazy paranoid lunatic, but I think if the government keeps on gaining more and more control over the people, the country will turn into one of those country's were always worried about, you know, with the terrorist government and all...
The United States currently has military in more country's than you can imagine. Did you know that there are more country's against the United States than there are with them? So let me ask you, who really is the world's "bad guy"?


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:23
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:24
Well, I have to admit, you got me there.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:24
Quote: " It's not like he's reading your email, although he probally will before long."


Actually the NSA has been saving every single sent email since the invention of email. They have machines scanning them 24/7 as far as I know.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:25
Quote: "Actually the NSA has been saving every single sent email since the invention of email. They have machines scanning them 24/7 as far as I know."


For a Canadian, you know an awful lot about our intelligence agencies.

*marks as suspicious / terrorist*


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:26
Nah, the machines take an hour-long break every 15 minutes.

stinking union.

David R
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:30
Quote: "Lightning - Who and what are you talking about and arguing against? Can't figure out if it's Leys or the rest of us."


Leys. He is the spawn of the devil

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:31
Quote: "you know, there are other ways to get those same stats, it just is harder and less effective. For Instance, if you can establish an common point (E-mail, Username, AIM Name, etc.) you can search public information to find out where you use those.

Heck, Just using the internet now allows anyone direct access to your system. Just a matter of knowing what your doing. And cookies and all, they infiltrate your system and send stats to whomever sent them. Think about those before hand.

But most of all, I could send threats againt the government and they wouldn't beable to do anything about it, with your flawed concept of freedom. Why, because the govenment can not determine if I can be labeled as a threat. They NEED hard evedence, not something a two yearold may have typed.

Really, what do you want? And if this is really as big as you say it is, then what is happening behind it? For it must be a mask covering the government's true intentions."


Erm....No.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:31
They're cloning toast seeds.

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:39
Quote: " Really??? You think that you have oh sooo much protection on the net? No one can figure you out?"


Im just to damn lazy to think of a reply that will get my point across without incriminating me further. So basically, I cannot think of a reply, yet am still not admitting you are right. Simply, no, i don't believe my information on the net is protected, but I also don't think it should be given out willingly.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:44
Someone get this guy an ambulance

Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:49
Quote: "For a Canadian, you know an awful lot about our intelligence agencies."


We are unbelievably inundated with Americanisms here... too much so. They broadcast your federal election debates here on many channels, as if we have nothing better to do (actually we don't--- the viewership is rather high). I highly doubt they broadcast our debates over in the US.

Plus I read a lot, which helps.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:52
Quote: "I highly doubt they broadcast our debates over in the US."


Never seen a Canadian debate in my life. In fact, I hardly know anything about the Canadian government. So...you're right on that one.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:53
Quote: "You shouldn't be worried about the govenment, you should be worried about other people who are doing the same thing."


Why can't I worry about both?


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Raven
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:53
Quote: "Quote: " The internet wasn't invented in the US, it was invented in the CERN research lab in EUROPE."

Taken from Wikipedia:
Quote: "The cores forming the Internet started out in 1969 as the ARPANET, created by the United States Department of Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA)."

ARPA is in the U.S., is it not? (rhetorical question)"


As I said before, both accounts are wrong and right depending on your point of view.

CERN created and started the first HTML tests;
ARPA created the TCP/IP Protocols;

In both cases NEITHER can take credit for creating the internet. Mearly laying the ground-work.

The internet wasn't invented, it was an evolution.
That's what Wikipedia doesn't give you a definitive 'It was such-n-such at this company' answer, it gives you more of a history of where everything came from.

Quote: "Actually, TCP is a protocol for reliable data streams, with mechanisms to order packets and prevent packet duplication. And network interface isn't the correct term"


It makes the data streams reliable because.. (look it up on Wikipedia if your not sure)
Quite simply it uses a Data Package configuration which allows data to be sent in an un-synronised mannor between two connected computers. As the computers do not need to be syncronised for a raw data transfer, it means that data can be split up and reconstructed later through a buffer.

The entire 'Protocol' system, is just the term given to the varying types of data that you can expect to recieve which were outlined many many years later for Internet use.

Effective what it gives you is a Class Structure, that does all of the dirty work for you. Now I dunno what you would call such a thing, but I could class something that provides you with an easier, and compatible system to access other systems an Interface.

Quote: "Not easily. The constitution has never been altered easily and never should be."

Depends how you look at it. There is quite a bit of red tape, but on the whole the process is pretty straight forward; and often relies more on trying to pass something that a majority of the peers agree on.

Quote: "That quote looks particularly idiotic when contrasted with state laws being, on ocassion, dissolved because they are unconstitutional and someone took a stand in court."


Sorry but any Law that can be altered/amended in order to suit a situation no matter the process (but particularly given it is left up to congress members and not a public vote) means that it isn't worth much. A legal document only means something if it's absolute, the Constitution isn't.. plain and simple.

I don't really care, but I just find it stupid how Americans cling on to the Constitution as some ironclad written in stone document; while the truth of the matter is that it is always subject to change and interpretation.

'Supreme Law of the Land' only works if the government that controls that law doesn't have the power to change it in order to achieve thier ends, and had to respect the law like any other public entity.

Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 04:54
The only canadian broadcast we get over here is your hit reality TV series, Strange Brew.

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:00
Quote: "I just find it stupid how Americans cling on to the Constitution as some ironclad written in stone document"


Because that is how it was meant to be. Not all constitutions in all countrys are the same. The US Constitution was made to be this way.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:03
You really don't get it do you Raven?

There are three branches of the government that hold each other in check. The branch that applies the law is different from the branch that creates it. They hold each other in check.

Eric T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:04
@ Mouse - I'll catch you on MSN later, I prefer OUR debates in real time. Our points get out easier that way, don't you agree?

Quote: "
Because that is how it was meant to be. Not all constitutions in all countrys are the same. The US Constitution was made to be this way."


As far as I know, the US constitution was just built as an OUTLINE. Though if there is a site that says otherwise, please post it (as I am actualy curious of this). I do know it can be amended and changed at any damn well time congress wants. As long as its put to a vote of course, and run through "checks and balances".

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An Alternative to Mouse's blog. Now with more lowbrow opinions.
Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:06
Quote: "Our points get out easier that way, don't you agree?"


I'm not sure if you spamming 'I'LL RIP YOUR GUTS OUT AND WATCH YOU BURN IN HELL' five hundred times in a row counts as reinforcing your argument, but I'll let that slide for now

Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:08
That's true. It is also, to some extent, unavoidable (but the situation could be greatly improved). The funny thing is Raven seems to have no grasp of the entire concept of the balance of power

Eric T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:09
Quote: " But she is right"


Raven is not a girl, as far as we know.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:09
Quote: "As far as I know, the US constitution was just built as an OUTLINE."


Might want to check deep into that , in fact I believe the constitution itself says otherwise(not sure on that).

Quote: "Though if there is a site that says otherwise, please post it (as I am actualy curious of this)."

I might try to dig up a site later quoting the constitution exctly.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:10
Quote: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article. I.

Section 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. "


...etc.

It's not an outline, it's the very foundation of the government

Eric T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:12
Ahh ok...

I never really paid attention "documents" in school. I more or less focused on the "Greeners vs Humans" debates

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Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:14
Oh get on MSN already

Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:15 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 05:17
Quote: "As I said before, both accounts are wrong and right depending on your point of view.

CERN created and started the first HTML tests;
ARPA created the TCP/IP Protocols;

In both cases NEITHER can take credit for creating the internet. Mearly laying the ground-work.

The internet wasn't invented, it was an evolution.
That's what Wikipedia doesn't give you a definitive 'It was such-n-such at this company' answer, it gives you more of a history of where everything came from."


Now here's where you're wrong. The point of view that's correct depends on the current situation in case of misinterpretation.

CERN, while lacking in style, created the low-profile CPU structure that rendered few of the HTML tags we know of today. Namely, <HTML> <BODY> and <HR>
ARPA was created as a network for recording and scheduling haircut appointments for military trainees. Which later developed into meeting schedules and keeping track of Points.

Let's face the facts, because, quite literally, both of these companies created the internet, while not actually creating an INTERnational NETwork.

Quote: "It makes the data streams reliable because.. (look it up on Wikipedia if your not sure)
Quite simply it uses a Data Package configuration which allows data to be sent in an un-synronised mannor between two connected computers. As the computers do not need to be syncronised for a raw data transfer, it means that data can be split up and reconstructed later through a buffer.

The entire 'Protocol' system, is just the term given to the varying types of data that you can expect to recieve which were outlined many many years later for Internet use.

Effective what it gives you is a Class Structure, that does all of the dirty work for you. Now I dunno what you would call such a thing, but I could class something that provides you with an easier, and compatible system to access other systems an Interface."


It's not quite that complicated. The packets are streamlined through a quad-hump of transisting vort-reactants. The data is THEN split up through the process of interweaving non-magnetized bits, not before.

True, that the Interface calms the illicit nano-sized infrastructure of TCP or the previous NNCP, but we can't dismiss the heaven-sent design of the self-debugging HRE protocol, no doubt an underlying factor in the internet as we see it today.

Quote: "Depends how you look at it. There is quite a bit of red tape, but on the whole the process is pretty straight forward; and often relies more on trying to pass something that a majority of the peers agree on."


Red tape, no. But there was some blue tape and yellowish tape. When we divide the masses, we see, not from the majority of peers, but from the separate classes of the anti-monarch system the americans enjoy, a new order in legislative compliance.

Quote: "Sorry but any Law that can be altered/amended in order to suit a situation no matter the process (but particularly given it is left up to congress members and not a public vote) means that it isn't worth much. A legal document only means something if it's absolute, the Constitution isn't.. plain and simple.

I don't really care, but I just find it stupid how Americans cling on to the Constitution as some ironclad written in stone document; while the truth of the matter is that it is always subject to change and interpretation.

'Supreme Law of the Land' only works if the government that controls that law doesn't have the power to change it in order to achieve thier ends, and had to respect the law like any other public entity."


That's just it, again, you fail to see that the Constitution was not created for rule of government, per say, but, rather, as a way to offer a standard for high-browed mafia-esque judicial tactics.

We could talk all afternoon about changing laws and amending amended amendments, but the juice of the matter remains, that peace can't be achieved by re-writing mis-written public intellectual transactions.

Eric T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:18
If I could I would mouse

@Jimmy - You CCNA? You just blasted past my Network+ mind

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:22
Quote: " But what is the fondation but a stricter outline."


This is me being stupid again, but think in terms of constructing a building:

An outline tells you exactly where and why things are in place. It tells you what should be done.

A foundation on the other hand rules over the entire building. Without a foundation, the building will fall and crumble before you.

So a foundation is MUCH more important.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Eric T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:24
Wouldn't a foundation more or less be a starting point for the building to be, well erm, built off of? Atleast thats what I get when I analyze the word.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:31 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 05:31
Ok, bad example. None the less, the constitution is not followed how it should be.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:44
Quote: "of couse not. If you've read your history you would know that we whouldn't have the internet, nor computers, nor electronics, nor anything really, because of indirect interpitation of the constitution. The first action was a national bank, put millions of people in dept. It goes on and on, but not all of them are bad, I just don't know any."


Do you even live in the US or know a thing you are talking about?


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 05:52
Quote: " yes...the question is how well can you extrapoliate what whould happen if we stuck to direct interpetation."


Thats not the problem, the problem is that in many cases, there is NO interpretation, rather it is ignored alltogether.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 06:02
Quote: "Jimmy, inter is not an abreviation of international, it is a prefix. Between i think.

And NET is not network, although network came from net. NET was ment to descibe the connections of the internet, everything is connected to something.

InterNet is communication between clients and servers by randomly connected cables."


You didn't actually read my post, did you. Oh well, you obviously don't have an open enough mind to be so enlightened.

Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 09:26
My point is that the internet gives power to the stupid people, and should be taken out and shot for it.

Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 10:00 Edited at: 1st Jun 2005 10:00
Quote: "...um...have you ever heard of that happening? Just because the goverment has the right to throw somebody in jail doesn't mean they are going to go around throwing random people in jail...they aren't that stupid...they know that not only would that be counter-productive but it would get a lot of people mad at them..."


Guantanamo Bay... duh!

4 british "prisoners" (i call them hostages) were released, after being in guantanamo bay for yrs without trial, returned to the UK, they're immediately put on trial and found innocent by the end of the weekend in which they returned.
Jeku
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 12:23
@Merranvo - What are you on about now? Do you always resort to rambling after a discussion?


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 1st Jun 2005 12:24
Quote: "Actually, We are supposed to have freedom to the point that it does not infringe on other people's freedom."


Exactly. Your privacy to send messages over the internet is not a freedom, because it could be used to infringe on other peoples' freedom. Someone could use it to organise a terroristic act and kill/injur other people infringing on their freedom to live.

Ace Of Spades
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Joined: 6th Mar 2005
Location: Across the ocean
Posted: 1st Jun 2005 12:29
Quote: "Exactly. Your privacy to send messages over the internet is not a freedom, because it could be used to infringe on other peoples' freedom. Someone could use it to organise a terroristic act and kill/injur other people infringing on their freedom to live."


The keyword there is could.

It is / should be our freedom to send messages over the internet as long as it does not infringe on others freedoms. It is not an all or nothing system. You can very easily have partials. So yes, if it gets to a point of terrorists organizing, THEN it's not THEIR freedom.


Im only "Apolloed" In Spirit
Lost in Thought
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 4th Feb 2004
Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia
Posted: 1st Jun 2005 12:49
But if they do not monitor it how will they know if it is used for that? The point is that there is no such thing as the freedom you are talking about. We have to find a happy medium. Anything you consider to be a freedom I can use to infringe on someone elses freedom.

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