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Geek Culture / Microsoft domination, a result of software piracy?

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MicroMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 05:58
In the thread about EU and Microsoft, I was struck by a thought: if software piracy hadn't been so widespread, would Microsoft have had such a domineering position?

I mean, Microsoft has reached a level of dominance in the market so that market inertia makes it the thing to have. When a user looks to upgrade his or her OS, he chooses a Windows version rather than Linux or BDSD.

If the user had been forced to pay for Windows, and downloading the software wouldn't have been possible - would Windows have had such domineering position?

What do you think?

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 06:18
I can hear the mods grabing thier crowbars and running this way.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
geecee3
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 06:24
I think microsoft should give it's OS warez away free, because it shafts us with the price of everything else. and to tell the truth, I have more problems with legacy microsoft apps under XP than any other publisher, Bill gates is a gibbon with no sense of direction. he just sees cash now. what was once microsoft's vision, is now microsoft's mess. unfinished code all over the place, look at the mess with DX9, are any of there products worth paying for? I don't think so. I only use winedoze because it's needed to run DBP. Everything else i could quite happily do in linux and for next to nothing in cost terms. and as for piracy hurting MS. no way!! business has a set amount of cash they must spend every year on their IT budget, most companies loose the difference from their budget if the fund is not spent. so they buy lost of expensive but ultimately rubbish MS apps. being MS certified you buy their fashionable and flashy products that are no better than most of the free stuff. it's all about money and power and shareholders my friend, the consumer market is just suckered in because Windows appears to be the one to go for.

rant over, grant.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 06:27
Amen eBrother.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
MicroMan
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 06:30
I don't like software piracy, but I think it is a serious question. One should be able to discuss it, I think. I don't like the thought of biting the hand that feeds me - and I want to get paid for my work. But still, I have a sneaking suspicion. I may be wrong, or I may be right, but I think there could be something to the thought.

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They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:41
Microsoft is winning because so many people pirate Linux!!!

Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:54
rofl

Try out the controller:-
http://controller.logicstudios.net
Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:17
Quote: "Microsoft is winning because so many people pirate Linux!!!"


Funny, but in a sense it's true. Linux developers just don't have the budget to keep up with Microsoft in terms of resources, and many businesses choose the Free Distros of Linux to the Corporate variations.

Right now Piracy neither hurts or helps Microsoft.

Those who Pirate, are very unlikely to buy the Windows upgrade anyways.
Those who don't Pirate Windows, simply get it because of the software library that is available and largely compatible.

So either way you look at it Microsoft isn't loosing money really, but then again it's not exactly gaining new business.

Though to be frank most businesses would kill to have Microsoft's market penatration.

The only way to really beat Microsoft is to out market them. Google has found the way to as well. Microsoft are a beyond predictable company, they will try to out-perform, out-market, or simply buy up competition.

In all of the cases, they're about as innovative as a brick. That's what you've got to do to win against them. Provide innovative services people NEED (not want need), and well it hugely helps if they actually work heh

If you can out-smart Microsoft's biggest and best (which at this point isn't exactly hard), then you can beat them at thier own game.

Killswitch
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:41
I'm really begining to get bothered by all these people who bash Microsoft just for being sucessful.

I've tried lots of Linux distributions and none of them even come close to Windows. All that make/install Kernal crap you have to go through just to get an app going is hardly worth it. Is it really that much better than a simple installation .exe?

I feel that the only reason why so many problems are exposed in Windows is that so many people use it, and half the time there is a problem on my system (XP Pro) it isn't the OSes fault its usually some doggey software OR some spyware getting in the way of things.

Linux would be just as plauged with viruses and other malicious code if it had such a big following. IMHO it would be even worse as the writers have the source code to the entire OS at their disposal.

There are some things I like about Linux, the ability to basicaly customise anything is pretty cool but I feel that it should remain as a 'hobbiest' OS. By which I mean that people who wish to learn about OS construction can, and should tinker with Linux.

And to be honest software problems are not entirely M$ fault. Anyone can write software for Windows, just look at some of the noobs here, but with Linux you only tend to get the hardcore programmers who are hell bent on producing something good.

In short, I don't think Microsoft should be punished simply for having won the largest market share. If it were the other way around I'm sure we'd be bashing (for example) Red Hat for their domination and praising Windows for some reason or another.

It's just a form of teenage rebellion.

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 11:35
Quote: "I've tried lots of Linux distributions and none of them even come close to Windows. All that make/install Kernal crap you have to go through just to get an app going is hardly worth it. Is it really that much better than a simple installation .exe?"


Actually I completely agree with you. Back in the day your computer came preloaded with your OS and that was it - the Amiga, the ST, the 8-bits.. you knew what you had and it worked. Sure you could patch it, enhance it, but ultimately underneath there was a rock solid foundation to build on.

Windows goes some way to provide this, except it's not tied to one set of hardware, it has to cater for so many million upon million combinations of different devices (and quality of components!) that it's no small wonder it has a reputation for crashing / instability.

It's amazing to think how far everyone thinks we have come since say the late 80's, when in reality we're all still doing the exact same things we were doing back then, only with better resolutions and colours In my mind computing still hasn't evolved at all, it's still in its infancy really. To be honest, for as long as we're tied to a keyboard and mouse for our primary input devices, I don't ever see it changing significantly.

Two Worlds and in Between
Hot Metal and Methedrine
Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 11:49
You didn't see what they had on offer at CES I take it?
One of the companies was displaying a monitor that not only projected 3D, about 12cms but heh not bad for technology that is available to buy now for like £200 more than standard LCD monitors; but it also had a built-in depth sensor.

You could physically, so to speak touch 3D keys with varying results. While NVIDIA's latest wall projection (9 monitors over 2 Quadro Cards) kinda stole the show display wise, I think that (Nexus was it? Hmm need to check) with thier 3D Monitor was by far the best on display.

What I think will be interesting is if that is combined with a sound vibration field (they had it 2 years ago at Siggraph displaying how you could show visual 3D stimulae) to let your fingers know how deep they've gone or give some basic tactile senses.

It would make for a totally different way we use computers in the years to come.

I mean imagine having a keyboard that was for all intended purposes just a 3D Projection but could be altered to anything you needed.
So say you wanted to write in Japanese, rather than Windows simply changing to IME the entire keyboard would change below your fingers allowing you to type as if you would on a native keyboard.

Of course I'm thinking small steps, but that is how a technology like that would have to be integrated into the business place. Rather than a giant leap to VR Adaptive controls with a 3D Mouse or something. You want to move people with resources they know and understand while providing a practical benefit.

Jeku
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 11:54
Quote: "I've tried lots of Linux distributions and none of them even come close to Windows. All that make/install Kernal crap you have to go through just to get an app going is hardly worth it. Is it really that much better than a simple installation .exe?"


Actually you'd be surprised. If you choose a Debian-based distro like Ubuntu, any program you'd need is just a click away to install. It sets itself up automagically and can be uninstalled in much the same easy way. Non painful and no command line for those command line phobias out there.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 12:03
Raven - true, but a 3D keyboard is still a keyboard We've got to get well beyond that before computing evolves into it's next stage. I don't believe touch-screens are a solution either, the input needs to be far less physical than that (imagine the arm ache you'd get!).

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 12:10
None of the linux distros have ever been terribly stable for me. I'm sure they make great servers, but as consumer desktops with five-ten applications (p2p, media player, browser, paint program, chat program, etc...) open at once, I can't imagine either SuSE or RedHat, at least, holding up. And they are a flipping pain to install, even if you get some of the nicer varities. Single piece of undetected hardware and it's a nightmare hunting for the right driver and setting it up and then it's gonna conflict with something else.

I know I sound like a Windows fanboy. I'm not, really, but I do appreciate the basic ease of use it has. Linux will never succeed as long as it is being designed for the people who are making it. But that's what they keep doing. If they stop designing it for nerds and script kiddies and start looking outward like the Firefox program did, well... history speaks for itself.

Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 12:20
Yeah, but you can't expect the computer world to change dramatically overnight though.

Computer (more over general industrial changes), when done dramatically tend to be shunned by the general public. So moving in small steps is the way.

If you think about it, touch-screens aren't new. Heck most shopping malls have been using touch-screen computers for over a decade. Yet end users are still very iffy over the idea of changing from what they know.

Given the reaction of people conserning the rumours about the Nintendo Visual Controller, you can see how the market would react to something that is even further removed from what they know.

The P5-Glove is a good idea, in concept. Provides some very interesting game controls, although it is technically just a modern update of the NES PowerGlove.. the way it was integrated into Max, Maya and Solidworks make it feel and react like your modelling with clay. Strange sensation on the computer, though it's take up is far from extreme given it's just too far from a Controller, Mouse or Keyboard.

I think if the market is to really evolve, it needs to be given a little nudge in the right direction. It's like your first day at College / University / Work when you don't know anyone at the office, you need to have that little mental nudge to get past that awkardness. You never get that nudge and you can be doomed to sitting alone in your own little corner of the world working exactly how you were before rather than learning new and interesting ways to do things.

Should be cool in the comming years to see where 3D Visuals go actually. So many possible different directions, but technically only one will ever be a fore-runner; or rather a standard.

Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 13:37 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 13:39
Quote: "All that make/install Kernal crap you have to go through just to get an app going is hardly worth it."


Rarely, rarely, do you ever need to recompile the kernel for applications to work properly. Quite often, unfortunately, you may have to recompile a kernel to include a certain driver that was not included by the distro maintainers for some reason (perhaps a conflict with another driver). This is especially true with older hardware, in my experience. Having said that though, I've had no hardware detection problems with my PC.

Quote: "Actually you'd be surprised. If you choose a Debian-based distro like Ubuntu, any program you'd need is just a click away to install. It sets itself up automagically and can be uninstalled in much the same easy way. Non painful and no command line for those command line phobias out there."


I use Ubuntu and it's easy, like you say. Even so, the commandline isn't that hard, I mean how hard is it to type: sudo apt-get install firefox?

Quote: "p2p, media player, browser, paint program, chat program"


That's what I'm doing right now, except for a paint program, but it could easily handle it. (aMule, Beep Media Player, Firefox, Gaim).

I'm not trying to be a fanboy here. There have been many occasions, where I have blown up and reinstalled Windows XP. However, I have always gone back to a distro, out of boredom or curiosity.

Linux distros still have a way to go, as it's always said. One of the problems I had, was fonts. They can't include the Windows fonts by default, hence you have to install them manually and then configure AA and hinting until they look good. Stuff like that, is what's holding it back.

- Rpg Cyco

Jeku
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 14:03
Quote: "Even so, the commandline isn't that hard"


Exactly. For anyone that's grown up using DOS, it shouldn't be hard. Hell, there are so many shortcuts (i.e. TAB to finish file names/directories, etc.) that it's faster to use the unix shell than the GUI anyway.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
The admiral
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 14:36
I hate people who jump down microsofts throat just because their sucessful. Bill gates came up with an programme that everyone needed and became sucessfull yet when everyone else does it is ok. I mean if there were another company that became as sucessful as microsoft you would all act just the same with them anyway.

The admiral
BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 16:00
Didn't Microsoft gain their popularity by adopting Apple's GUI idea and making their architecture more open? And then once everybody jumped on the open architecture boat Microsoft kept up with the competition, and now the mass market barely even knows what Linux (or an OS for that matter) is.

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Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 16:45
Depends how you look at it really.
Windows 1.0 that was released in like 1982, might look like a far cry from Windows 3.1 (which is really when Microsoft Windows actually took off in homes). The reality is that is was very very similar running on more restricting hardware, doing very similar tasks.

Windows 3.0 has elements of AppleOS in it, due to the [-] Close Icons being on the Left rather than the right. But the fact is that this was a feature since Windows 1.0, in-fact I think more of the similarities were more of a coincidence rather than deliberate.

Actually if you look back both Apple and Microsoft GUI Operating Systems have things that Amiga Workbench introduced.

Taskbar, Right-Click Menu, 'Amiga' Button Menu & Actions, Tabs, Scroll & Combo Boxes, etc.

Workbench 1.0 was by far one of the most Advanced GUI Operating Systems, especially considering when it was released.

IBM-Compatible Machines (Microsoft) and Apple definately lost the public sector to Atari and Amiga until 1994. The problem with Atari and Amiga though were they designed thier computers like consoles.

Expecting people to simply buy an entirely new unit each time a new model was released. This was thier downfall, because you couldn't really customise them (until it was too late that is).

If you ever take the time to look over Windows 95, I doubt it would've been even half as popular if it hadn't been made as simple as Amiga Workbench.

Window 95 was really Microsoft's "Crucial" time. They were pushing themselves forward, not just into true 32-bit computing, but more because for the first time they actually controlled the market.

With Windows 3.1x firmly based as a GUI Front for DOS rather than a true Operating System, everyone could use thier own variation of DOS.

DR DOS, NDOS, SHell, MS-DOS, etc.. most of the time you spent more time actually in DOS still because some programs required the crucial 640k that Windows liked to take up.

32-bit was supported by Win32Software, but it buggy and not native really. More like DOS/4GW, 32-bit Extensions for DOS.

You also have to keep in mind that Linux is young.
While the OS it was created from and technically it's big brother (Unix) has been around since the late 70s, Linux itself only started to appear in 1991, well more like 1992 really given the online communities at that point, it had to filter through quite a few people before it became widely enough available.

Downloading the 538K source back then was a challenge, given you were talking about a good 3-4hours (no SERIOUSLY, when the best modems around were 14400baud, not many people had them either you were more looking at having some of the 9600baud that's what I had atleast). And you could hardly call getting it free either, while sure the source was free and open; 3-4hours online could cost almost £15-20. Hellova lot just for some OS you had to program and build yourself to use.

Didn't exactly come with an instruction manual either, so relying on other peoples distro's like RM, Novell, and Red Hat was the key to expericing it.

What is interesting is really it wasn't until the last 6-7 years that Linux has even had a GUI System X-Free86. So it was hardly starting the race on equal footing.

Main problem you'll see with it, especially against Unix and Windows is the sheer 'compatibility' and 'standards'. I mean it was created in the first place to be a compact and more standardised variation of Unix. Something that could actually be a REAL alternative to DOS; So it is quite ironic that nowadays it's Unix that is really considerably more standardised.

Linux has degenerated in-to effective 3 Key User Groups.
- Cheap Server Solutions
- University Students
- Script Writers (Generally Nerds who think that using it makes them 'cool' and 'anti-micro$oft' .. yeah i'm sure that changing your OS to Linux is gonna get all the girls now. )

It's not impossible for someone to create an OS to compete against Microsoft, you just have to play thier game. At the same time though, if you think that it's a simple getting even close to the same stability as they have then be my guest.

You see it as unstable, but thier OS will literally run out-of-the-box on basically ANY x86 setup.

Linux & Unix do not have the same ability. While they're compatibly with a large range of 'standard' hardware, if your using something they don't recognise then it'll die.

For example AMD and Intel Processors work a charm, ever tried using a Cyrix though? lol your lucky to boot it up without it freezing.

There aren't the same safety checks to make sure hardware works before accessing it incorrectly potencially damaging it.
The only reason there is more stability is because the hardware supported is more limited, but also generally speaking each Linux builds it's kernel when you install (or update drivers).

So effectively it's like having a personalised OS, but don't expect to install it within seconds .. and don't expect it to run on anything aside from literally Default hardware without recoding some parts yourself.

The Market is too small with the driver interface being the biggest pain in the arse for developers to bother with. Apple were sensible and changed that part of Unix... NVIDIA don't mind updating drivers for them for a realtively wide-scale of cards.

Linux is lucky to get a new build of thier drivers every 6months, and NVIDIA is one of the BETTER Linux supporting companies.

Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 17:00 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 17:04
Quote: "but also generally speaking each Linux builds it's kernel when you install (or update drivers)"


I don't think that's correct. Most distros have precompiled i386 kernels with them, with the option of installing a i686 or k7 kernel later. Gentoo, I assume compiles the kernel along with everything else (not sure, never used it).

If you use the NVIDIA Drivers package from NVIDIA (some distros, like Ubuntu & SuSE, have NVIDIA drivers in their respositries, unfortunately Ubuntu's aren't updated until the next release, it's part of their 'stability' policy), it needs the headers only for your target kernel to compile itself against. Obviously, this process is beyond a typical PC user. Yet another reason why Linux isn't mainstream.

Quote: "Linux is lucky to get a new build of thier drivers every 6months, and NVIDIA is one of the BETTER Linux supporting companies."


Usually they are every 3 to 4 months, which isn't bad at all. Linux got new drivers before Windows this time around (link). OpenGL 2.0 is supported now.

- Rpg Cyco

Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 18:00
Quote: "I don't think that's correct. Most distros have precompiled i386 kernels with them, with the option of installing a i686 or k7 kernel later. Gentoo, I assume compiles the kernel along with everything else (not sure, never used it)."


Yes, provided you are running the 'perfect' standard hardware.
Which apparently NON of the computers I have here.

Hell even my Pentium II 266 / Geforce 2 Ti / Realtek 8029 / Sound Blaster 16 / Sony 42x16x10x / 120GB Hitachi|IBM ATA133 counts as 'standard' hardware.

I had to rebuild the Kernel for my Sound Card (a sodding DECADE old and the industry standard yet STILL not support! It's a damn ISA card FGS, even WindowsXP in DOS mode uses it correctly!), I still can't get my Sony RW to actually burn discs (or read them for that matter), I tried to install the Geforce drivers; but it keeps claiming I don't have OpenGL.

This was all on SuSE, with it's user-friendly idiot-proof YOU program. Even manually though still takes a while.. not to mention aparently the Kernel uses i386 mode on default, you have to build in i686 Support, then build in MMX support. I was slightly more than irate after installing the OS itself for 4 Hours, it killed my Windows Parition, even though I specifically told it how much to repartition it still didn't listen and reparitioned almost half the disk, then it was another few hours waiting for the damn thing to recompile the Kernel. When it threw up the error connecting to the Internet VIA DHCP it was at that point I flung the installer disc out the Window and put Windows Server 2003 back on the machine.

Yup how's that for 'User Friendly'

Quote: "Usually they are every 3 to 4 months, which isn't bad at all. Linux got new drivers before Windows this time around (link). OpenGL 2.0 is supported now "


Check the backlogs. I have Students who believe there is nothing past Linux who are constantly bugging me to check on nvworkstation to check if the new Linux drivers are out; what they support, blah blah.

A few members reckon that cause the PS3 uses Linux as it's back-bone that means NEW updates. Honestly I'm not holding my breath.. and 40minutes installing a new sodding driver is not quite the same as 2minutes on Windows followed by a few seconds rebooting (or you could do a soft unhook boot if you know how forcing Windows to believe it's got an error that can be fixed by reloading the core drivers heh)

Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 18:38 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 18:43
Quote: "Whatever's not quoted below. "


Yes, hardware support for Linux based Operating Systems is poor and very, very tempermental. It also seems you got hit with the worst of it! It's not entirely their fault though. They don't have all the hardware specs for some hardware and are forced to reverse engineer to be able to write drivers. It's a problem with open source software.

Quote: "I tried to install the Geforce drivers; but it keeps claiming I don't have OpenGL."


That doesn't make sense. The NVIDIA Linux drivers (like I assume the NVIDIA Windows drivers do), install their own OpenGL libraries. I guess I'm missing something, sorry.

Quote: "Check the backlogs. I have Students who believe there is nothing past Linux who are constantly bugging me to check on nvworkstation to check if the new Linux drivers are out; what they support, blah blah."


http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_display_archive.html

The biggest gap there is 6 months, which appears only twice (1.0-4496 -> 1.0-5328 & 1.0-5336 -> 1.0-6106). The rest are around 3 to 4, like I said. The 6 month gaps were when a new major revision (eg: 5X.XX to 6X.XX) was released, which makes it a bit more understandable, IMO. I wasn't using Linux back then either.

As for those students... they sound like nerd extremists, put a sock in their mouths.

Quote: "Honestly I'm not holding my breath.. and 40minutes installing a new sodding driver is not quite the same as 2minutes on Windows followed by a few seconds rebooting (or you could do a soft unhook boot if you know how forcing Windows to believe it's got an error that can be fixed by reloading the core drivers heh)"


I agree with you here. I just spent 15 minutes updating my drivers to the latest version. I forgot to remove a few packages from the old drivers, which caused the installer to stuff up when compiling (of course). It is, certainly, a much longer and harder process.

- Rpg Cyco

Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 19:04
Quote: "The biggest gap there is 6 months, which appears only twice (1.0-4496 -> 1.0-5328 & 1.0-5336 -> 1.0-6106). The rest are around 3 to 4, like I said. The 6 month gaps were when a new major revision (eg: 5X.XX to 6X.XX) was released, which makes it a bit more understandable, IMO. I wasn't using Linux back then either."


Yeah, but the thing is most of them aren't worth the upgrade. Generally speaking each card seems to be focused on each time.

So like the last 2-3 drivers have been purely for the 6-Series, there was no difference in compatibility with the FX-Range.. the OpenGL 2.0 'appears' to have beaten the Windows drivers, but check the beta section on nZone. They should have the new 76 we got in the dev section a week ago.

Linux was are almost always put out in the public asap, yet Windows ones tend to go through a week or so of us bitching on the forums over what it's broken (heh or killed )

Quote: "That doesn't make sense. The NVIDIA Linux drivers (like I assume the NVIDIA Windows drivers do), install their own OpenGL libraries. I guess I'm missing something, sorry."


No it makes perfect sense, and NVIDIA refuse to spend time on fixing an issue they've caused because non one uses GeForce 2 anymore.

I mean I understand that they only have 2 guys developing drivers for all of the platforms (unlike ATI who have 12 guys and STILL only support Windows ), but it's kinda my point that you just can't expect the same level of support. Especially given how NVIDIA are actually one of the best companies for Linux drivers.

It is a huge difference from Windows developers who'll rush to fix something. For example the past 2-3months we've had around 1 new Windows driver from NVIDIA fixxing minor problems but still updating every 3 weeks. Linux we've been waiting approx 1-2months each minor update.

Just not even in the same time scales really. This won't change until Linux changes, but that's not going to happen.

Honestly I don't see much of a point to the OS over Windows. Not really much more stable, or safe. At the end of the day a professional hacker can get in your system; and all hardware will eventually cause a crash. Linux is more silent about the errors that go one, but you review the error logs of both Windows and Linux and you'll see daily.. you'll have a good 10-20 errors. Not serious but enough to show neither is really particularly stable.

I think the only plus side of Linux is when it crashes properly it just closes threads and restarts. Though of-course unlike Windows the problem often is systemic, meaning you have to reboot or suffer it's wrath every few minutes.

So again no difference.

There's the customisable option, but that said both OS have that. X-Free is easier to edit, but not as many options directly available through the scripter.

On the whole it purely comes down to what your more comfortable with. Without a doubt I'd go with Windows... mainly because ALL and I mean ALL UIS for Linux try to emulate Windows and Mac rather than trying to be a style of thier own. As such they just feel like cheap knock-offs.

gbuilder
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 19:19 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 19:20
Quote: "Raven - true, but a 3D keyboard is still a keyboard We've got to get well beyond that before computing evolves into it's next stage. I don't believe touch-screens are a solution either, the input needs to be far less physical than that (imagine the arm ache you'd get!)."


I'd be interested to know what Richard thinks would be 'well beyond keyboards'.
There has to be some sort of device for input. Perhaps speech commands. Or thought control. Just how do you get the information into a computer that can compute it into a desireable form such as text, 3d, holograms etc.

gbuilder.

XP2000, 512mb Ram, 64mb GForce4 MX440 Graphics card, WindowsXP Professional.
Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 19:26
gbuilder, there's the 'cyborg' scientist down in.. i think it's hull who has been able to not only successfully interface brains, eyes, and nervous system to computers; but has actually been able to successfully transmit sensations down the internet to someoene else with the implant.

so as he open and closed his hand, his wife at home was able to feel the sensation of her hand opening and closing.

cybornetics freak me out a bit, but it definately goes beyond the whole 'keyboard' interface. it was hoped that the neural interface would be complete within Stevan Hawkins lifetime so he could talk and interact more freely.

it isn't likely to get that advanced for a while, but monkeys being able to use windows and emulate controller pads in thier head have been achieved so far.

gbuilder
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 20:27 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 20:28
Quote: "there's the 'cyborg' scientist down in.. i think it's hull who has been able to not only successfully interface brains, eyes, and nervous system to computers; but has actually been able to successfully transmit sensations down the internet to someoene else with the implant. so as he open and closed his hand, his wife at home was able to feel the sensation of her hand opening and closing. "


If it's true, that's a little freaky. The image of the Star Trek Borg comes to mind, lots of wires, pipes and valves protruding.
How about thinking your way around a screen? Thought recognition could be the next thing but perhaps could only be achieved by those who had control of their minds. Sensors that are tuned in to individuals and able to recognise their thoughts.

gbuilder.

XP2000, 512mb Ram, 64mb GForce4 MX440 Graphics card, WindowsXP Professional.
David R
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 22:36
Quote: "I'm sure they make great servers, but as consumer desktops with five-ten applications (p2p, media player, browser, paint program, chat program, etc...) open at once, I can't imagine either SuSE or RedHat, at least, holding up."


That's pretty much crap (imagine being the operative word!) I have twice the amount of apps open in RH linux than I do in Windows, simply because the Linux kernel is designed to 'use what it needs'. Windows does a lot of extra stuff which isn't really required to run the PC - and this shows; My linux desktop starts up in about 5 seconds.... my Windows desktop takes 5 mins....

Quote: "Especially given how NVIDIA are actually one of the best companies for Linux drivers"

IBM ring a bell?

[url=www.lightningstudios.co.uk][/url]
Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 02:08
Quote: "I'd be interested to know what Richard thinks would be 'well beyond keyboards'. There has to be some sort of device for input. "


Absolutely, but I think words faster than I type them, hell I can say words faster than I type them (and I can type very very fast) - so the keyboard is one limiting factor for some computer uses. The mouse is another, I don't believe there is anything a mouse can do that you couldn't achieve with some kind of intelligent eye tracking glasses, save perhaps for gaming I believe the monitor itself is also a limiting factor, we try so hard to project 3D worlds onto what is essentially a 2D device - I'm sure this will change soon.

I don't think there is any one thing that will make drastic waves.. I don't expect "brain control" to become the norm either, but there are SO many repetitive tasks we perform day in and day out that there has to be simpler ways to do them. For example moving the mouse to click on the "Post Message" button.. or hitting TAB twice.. same end result, but it's something we shouldn't have to do. If the mouse pointer for example followed my eyes I could speak the text into this form, look at the post button and tell it to click it. Intelligence is what OSes need next and perfect voice recognition, but built right into the OS - so you could look at a file and tell the computer to rename it and it'd know it can do that because it knows files can be renamed, but tell it something like "drag start button to trash can" and it'd know you were being daft. There are limitations with pure voice input, eye tracking, etc just as with keyboards and mice - but it seems that user input is the one area of computing that no serious development is happening with - and yet it limits and holds back everything else. Incredible really!

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices.
Raven
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 03:41
Quote: "IBM ring a bell?"


IBM have thier own Distro of Linux, 'WebSphere'
What the hell does that have to do with Drivers?

Quote: "If it's true, that's a little freaky. The image of the Star Trek Borg comes to mind, lots of wires, pipes and valves protruding.
How about thinking your way around a screen? Thought recognition could be the next thing but perhaps could only be achieved by those who had control of their minds. Sensors that are tuned in to individuals and able to recognise their thoughts"


Oh it freaks me out all the time. They show the guy doing a short lecture on the technology on Sci-Fi late at night, so you'd be waiting between the Thursday Animé and you'd see him going on about Virtual Sex where by one person could feel what the other person was doing using implants.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who's seen it heh ^_^

..

Rich do you have Microsoft Office XP/2003?
Because it has MS Speech 5, which after a little practise (I spend like 20-30minutes every few months improving it's recognition engine) you can actually have it filter out your voice and understand you pretty well.

Now all I have to do is, no matter where I am in the room say 'Windows'; and it's ready for command mode. So then I can just say something like 'Send Mail' and it'll search for the Send Mail button and send that email.

I use it for many other aspects too. A personal project I've been working on with a friend involved Linux using similar technology for voice regonition but with a learning Artificial Intelligence. Nothing complex, but like just capable of rescripting sequences so it's able to give you stuff you need.

We have it at the point where it can integrate Google into what it does when we request information, and then combine the sources to provide a relatively good response.

So I could like say, 'Workbench, Search for Information On Intel Pentium 4 Processors'
It will come back with a list of links on the screen, then tell me 'Search Complete'

The experimental part right now, is the read-back feature. I think the problem with this is the external sources aren't good enough for scripting yet; but I can tell it to 'give me a Brief Description' and it'll take several sources that will most likely have the best information and come back by saying something like.

'The Intel Pentium 4 Processor is a 32bit Processor Unit. Developed by Intel, released in 2003. First to use Intel Hyper-Threading technology. It is now the benchmark for modern processors.'

Well it actually goes on alot longer, cause there's no real end to what 'Brief' means on a subject and generally is based on the overall resources on the subject heh

Hopefully as Google improve thier engine for getting news from several sources, we can also see about getting a better describer for comming up with the blurbs on subjects.

Still as it improves, VCI should become more and more useful.
Unfortuntely though for processing means, you need a beefy processor; especially if you talk REALLY quicker heh

Killswitch
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 05:36
Is it me or does Raven always seem to be speaking out of his arse?

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
SageTech
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 10:53
if Microsoft developed something thats sunccesfull , I say good for them. I like linux, but im going to say, down with the evil microsoft who runs thw world! I mean look at your computer and tell me what operating system you run. Im sure at least 70% of the people here would say, Windows. So i dont think people should be bashing microsoft for thier genious. (I am not a corporate spy sent here by microsoft)

Sagetech forums currently down
Richard Davey
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 10:58
Quote: "I mean look at your computer and tell me what operating system you run. Im sure at least 70% of the people here would say, Windows."


Given that the only reason you'd be on this forum is because you use one of our products - and we only develop Windows based products - I'd say 70% is a little on the low side. Probably more like 99%. It doesn't prove anything though - if you asked a similar question on a Photoshop forum I bet the majority would be using a Mac.

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices.
Raven
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 11:16
Heh, I think Shake would've been a better example Rich.

Sage, the reason Linux is under developed for (conserning Commercial Quality Software), is because it's a pain in the arse to develop for.

While sure simple programs are easily done in it, as you get more and more complex you end up just adding more and more time to your development life-time.

This is a major reason why DirectX is being chosen over OpenGL as the primary API, and why Middleware is again being chosen for Multi-platforming. More Development Time = Higher Costs.

The Linux market can't, or should I say not willing to spend money on the products made available; yet in order to finance them they would have to be quite a bit more expesive than Windows stuff.

You also need to take in-to mind that while sure there is alot of source out there for Linux programs, there just isn't anything on the scale of MSDN to help out lost developers. Wiki sites are good, but they don't really cover alot in a way that makes development easy enough.

Long-n-short really is, with RAD development tools being almost exclusive to MaxOSX and Windows (more Windows) your not likely to see other systems supported much.

Your major businesses really are games as far as the home desktop system goes.

Internet, E-Mail, Office, Paint, Games, Media

Unless Linux can support all of these actions, and in a way that doesn't make the use call tech-support in india every 20minutes wondering what to do next; there is little chance of it being popular enough in the home to warrent something like Dark Basic Professional.

There are ways around it with Cedega, but still that's not exactly the easiest (or cheapest... my god is it expensive!) way to get your games in-to Linux.

It's not a bad OS, just it's not exactly a good one either.
The source is open though so feel free to make your Windows beat-OS, and see Microsoft knocked off thier mountain.

GothOtaku
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 12:40
Quote: "Linux would be just as plauged with viruses and other malicious code if it had such a big following. IMHO it would be even worse as the writers have the source code to the entire OS at their disposal.
"

Quite possibly, but the theory behind open-source software is that since anyone can view the source bugs get fixed faster.

Quote: "For example AMD and Intel Processors work a charm, ever tried using a Cyrix though? lol your lucky to boot it up without it freezing."

Actually, I think almost all Linux distros have perfect support for Cyrix. I know the BSDs do.

Quote: "
Honestly I don't see much of a point to the OS over Windows. Not really much more stable, or safe. At the end of the day a professional hacker can get in your system; and all hardware will eventually cause a crash. Linux is more silent about the errors that go one, but you review the error logs of both Windows and Linux and you'll see daily.. you'll have a good 10-20 errors. Not serious but enough to show neither is really particularly stable.

I think the only plus side of Linux is when it crashes properly it just closes threads and restarts. Though of-course unlike Windows the problem often is systemic, meaning you have to reboot or suffer it's wrath every few minutes."

No, I'm sorry but this isn't close. A properly configured Linux kernel will give out no errors. Maybe some warnings, maybe but no real errors if everything's configured correctly. As for Linux crashing all the time that's crap. If it's supported you should have no problems. We use Linux servers at work for most of our small servers (like dept. FTP servers) and we have these up for years with no problems. Straight out of the box installs too. Now if we actually have a problem (which is actually pretty rare) we can just telnet into the computer and kill the offending process. In this way it's easier and more economic to deploy Linux in our workstations versus Windows since we never have to restart. Only if there's a full kernel panic will we have to restart the computers unlike Windows where if something stops working you need to restart. A full-screen app hang and you can't get rid of it? Tough, restart. On *nix telnet, ps -aux | grep, and kill -9 and you're back up and running without waiting for the computer to restart.
Raven
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 13:43
Quote: "A properly configured Linux kernel will give out no errors. Maybe some warnings, maybe but no real errors if everything's configured correctly."


That's really case and point.
What's to stop me doing the same with Windows? Nothing at all, so once again we'd have Linux just throwing up warning, and Windows doing the same.

You'd be a stale-mate because both OS are just as stable as each other. I feel this is more impressive on Microsoft's part given, they're OS runs on so many configurations without issue. Those which do have an issue are often minor problems quickly solved.

Open Source != Quicker Bug Fixes

Sure it means more people can see a problem and have a go at fixing it; but when your entire bug community is made up of people who just believe they know the OS; rather than a team who've done nothing BUT that OS for the past decade. Who's more likely to know how to solve to just circumvent an issue?

Both of them will always have bugs.. in my experience without spending hours on sorting the Operating System out on installation Windows is more stable.

Sorry but that's just my experience.
I can format, install Windows XP and within the hour it will be good to go.

SuSE and Red Hat takes me 40minutes to Reformat, 3hours to Install, anthor hour or so tracking down and downloading drivers, a good 20-30minutes on each driver needed.

In order for SuSE to be at the state Windows XP is.. it would take me the better part of half a day. And I actually know what the hell I'm doing with the OS.

Then if it isn't configured properly you'll find that it'll use all it's ram using FireFox causing the browser to crash, or rather just shutdown instantly. You then have to wait until Linux realises (if it does) that it needs to destory the memory used.

Now you also come into the factor that not every program will run the first time you try to use it; you end up with an awkward system to run that has taken far longer to setup.

God forbid I'd want it to actually be an Internet Server. That's the rest of the day right there.

Yet Windows your looking at another hour, if that.

This is all BEFORE optimising it. It can take hours upon hours going through .confs trying to find inconsistancies that you could fix to have better performance.

Windows again in this area is actually one hell of a lot easier. There are 3 main menu araes that control services, libraries, and configurations. These are then split in to easier to manage sections themselves.

It still takes a while to config Windows properly, but not even close to the same amount of time as Linux.

Killswitch
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 16:21
My personal view on the Opensource = Quicker Bug fixes is that because everyone has access to the source, a lot of people will be working on the same problem.

This causes two problems:

'Splintering' of the software as lots of different versions become avaliable.

And

More bugs! I've never, ever had someone else try to or actual fix a bug in my code without it causing another bug somewhere else, because of conflicting styles or whatever.

And another thing, couldn't M$ just easily get the FireFox source, modify it a bit then release it as IE7?

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
indi
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 16:31
im using OSX, which we can all agree is what a hybrid commerce driven linux/unix setup can be. I have professional software for the jobs i undertake and it works out of the box without a lot of fuss.

Freeware linux/unix can be great for business and allows you to create a unique operation setup in regards to users using the system and controlling stock etc..

Open Office and a decent linux distro can be very valuable to smaller and larger business activities, depending on whats required.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 17:39
Quote: "SuSE and Red Hat takes me 40minutes to Reformat"


Formatting usually takes seconds.... unlike Windows XP. Were you trying to run it on a rock? A tree branch?

Quote: "3hours to Install"


0.5MHz? On my oldest machine (866MHz, 128MB RAM), Fedora takes about 45 minutes. On a very slow old box (PIII 450Mhz), Ubuntu took 1 hour. I don't get it.

Quote: "anthor hour or so tracking down and downloading drivers"


I don't understand how it can take this long, though it's possible of course. What devices were you trying to find drivers for?

Quote: "a good 20-30minutes on each driver needed."


Depends on the distro, but on Ubuntu, everything worked out of the box for me, except the NVIDIA drivers which I had to install using apt, which was simple.

sudo apt-get install linux-restricted-modules-k7 nvidia-glx nvidia-settings
sudo nvidia-glx-config enable


You might not even be talking about that though, you didn't say.

Quote: "In order for SuSE to be at the state Windows XP is.. it would take me the better part of half a day. And I actually know what the hell I'm doing with the OS."


I fail to see how that can be.

Quote: "Then if it isn't configured properly you'll find that it'll use all it's ram using FireFox causing the browser to crash, or rather just shutdown instantly. You then have to wait until Linux realises (if it does) that it needs to destory the memory used."


Errrr.... sorry? I've never heard of that happening. In my experience, over a period of 1 week, Linux manages it's memory much better.

Windows XP, on day 7, programs were taking longer and longer to startup and weren't responding as they normally did. On Ubuntu, it was running as fast as day one. Once again, these are my experiences.

Quote: "Now you also come into the factor that not every program will run the first time you try to use it; you end up with an awkward system to run that has taken far longer to setup."


Please elaborate.

You seem to have really bad luck, if all you say is true.

- Rpg Cyco

Raven
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 18:26
Quote: "im using OSX, which we can all agree is what a hybrid commerce driven linux/unix setup can be. I have professional software for the jobs i undertake and it works out of the box without a lot of fuss."


very very true, thought they did rewrite quite a lot.

MacOSX is different to Unix, as Linux is.
I mean while they're all based off the same source, how each variation has changed is quite interesting.

Quote: "Formatting usually takes seconds.... unlike Windows XP. Were you trying to run it on a rock? A tree branch?"


Repartitioning takes seconds. Reformating is a very different matter; Most Linux don't reformat to ReiserFS or XFS, instead they just alter the MBR and pretend that the entire table is clean.

This is where quite a lot of Linux' instability can come into play, it is also something that can inadvertantly damage hardware. Particularly SATA interfaces.

I have a 420GB Hard Disk for SuSE currently on SATA. So it takes a while for it to format the necessary disk space.

Quote: "0.5MHz? On my oldest machine (866MHz, 128MB RAM), Fedora takes about 45 minutes. On a very slow old box (PIII 450Mhz), Ubuntu took 1 hour. I don't get it."


Fedora is pathetically cut-back. It had 3CDs but most of it is just pre-downloaded hardware and drivers that aren't installed as default.

SuSE 9.2 Professional took me in excess of 3hour.
This is on a SATA150, 1.5GB PC4300, AMD Athlon64 FX-55 O|C 2.9GHz

The system wasn't a slouch in any shape or form. It took a good 20minutes just for SuSE to recognise all of my hardware.

Quote: "Depends on the distro, but on Ubuntu, everything worked out of the box for me, except the NVIDIA drivers which I had to install using apt, which was simple.

sudo apt-get install linux-restricted-modules-k7 nvidia-glx nvidia-settings
sudo nvidia-glx-config enable

You might not even be talking about that though, you didn't say."


SuSE uses YaST, I've never used this Ubuthingie.. but I've tried Gentoo's forget the name.

Both of the ones I've used were horribly slow and required me to log-in / out of my primary account, set-up root for access, run the installation.. go back in, tweak, etc.

while the NVIDIA drivers now come in a run. package which should just automatically install no-fuss no-muss style; i've not been able to get it to work even close to a Microsoft Installer.

Quote: "Errrr.... sorry? I've never heard of that happening. In my experience, over a period of 1 week, Linux manages it's memory much better.

Windows XP, on day 7, programs were taking longer and longer to startup and weren't responding as they normally did. On Ubuntu, it was running as fast as day one. Once again, these are my experiences."


How often do you use Linux, and how often do you use Windows?
Windows will slow down after a relatively heavy use period simply because it uses PageFile (Hard Disk) Memory, as well as the Physical Memory. So as your disk fragments it causes it to slow. It's easily remedies with DeFragging, or more importantly cleaning out your Caches every 2weeks, or preferably each week.

Linux uses purely your Physical Memory. This poses a huge problem in a number of ways.

a/ Linux programs take up more Memory, this is just a fact of how they're being run.. not alot you can do about it.

b/ Windows will add 640MB + YOURRAMSIZE, this will = your total Ram.
So if you had 256MB Physical you would end up with 1158MB Total.

While Windows generally requires around 196MB just to run, your still left with much more. Especially given when not in use your Memory is passed on to your Page; so that active applications have the physical memory.

Linux will always have 256MB - Overhead (which generally is around 50-64MB). Lets' say you want to open up FireFox (26MB) then say you felt like some XMMS Music (32MB) .. any maybe you want to have Maya running in the background (140MB) oh but wait.. you've just broken your budget. Maya starts up, and just flick* closes again. No warning, nothing; another scenario of this is that it doesn't close Maya but actually just locks it in-place. So you try to open it and you just get the title window but it immediately shrinks to the tab.

The memory management might be 'slighty' better than Windows in terms of overall cleaning after a program leaves the memory. It doesn't even come close to offering what .NET does though. Not yet atleast.

Quote: "Please elaborate.

You seem to have really bad luck, if all you say is true."


Not really, my experience with Linux over the years has brought me to have a searing hatred for public releases. If it wasn't required for work means, it would be as far from my computer(s) as possible.

If you've never experienced problems with Linux then I'd say either you have one hell of a standard system; or just dumb luck. (or perhaps just very limited experience)

Give it time; the only people I know who really love Linux are people who don't spend 24|7 at thier workstation using it. Those who do pray that the employer gods will grant them Macs.

Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 19:12 Edited at: 6th Jun 2005 19:17
Quote: "Repartitioning takes seconds. Reformating is a very different matter; Most Linux don't reformat to ReiserFS or XFS, instead they just alter the MBR and pretend that the entire table is clean."


Oh, I see, makes sense now. I haven't had any problems yet, though, so hopefully it stays that way.

Quote: "Fedora is pathetically cut-back. It had 3CDs but most of it is just pre-downloaded hardware and drivers that aren't installed as default."


Sorry, I should have mentioned I did a custom install, with more then default amount of packages, including 90% of the development ones.

Quote: "The system wasn't a slouch in any shape or form. It took a good 20minutes just for SuSE to recognise all of my hardware."


Very odd indeed! Out of the 4 or so distros I've tried, it's only taken at max, 45 seconds. That was on my sloest PC as well. Having said that, I haven't used SuSE before. I've read that it's fairly slow though, in terms of general performance, so I've stayed away from it.

Does SuSE do it differently then other distros you've tried?

Quote: "SuSE uses YaST, I've never used this Ubuthingie.. but I've tried Gentoo's forget the name."


Gentoo's package manager is called Portage. I have never used it, but from what I understand it automatically downloads the source for whatever you request and compiles it for you. Sounds very messy, and comments from other users support that. I personally want to stay away from that distro.

As for YaST, I'm under the impressions that it contains NVIDIA Drivers, but as for other hardware I have no idea. Haven't used it.

Quote: "Memory managements explaination."


I see what you mean, though, again, this has never happened to me. It must seem like I am just denying everything you say, but I am just speaking from what I've experienced so far.

Quote: "If you've never experienced problems with Linux then I'd say either you have one hell of a standard system"


Well my system is:

AMD Athlon XP 2000+ | ASUS A7N8X Deluxe | 512MB DDR333 RAM | 256MB GeForce FX 5950 Ultra | 1x 80GB + 1x 40GB | SB Audigy | Inspire 5.1 5100 Speakers | Ubuntu Linux - Hoary Hedgehog | Windows XP - SP2

So yeah, fairly standard, mature, hardware. Supports your hypothesis. Just as a side note, what do you consider as non-standard hardware? Bleeding edge stuff?

Quote: "or just dumb luck."


Thanks for that, Guv.

Quote: "(or perhaps just very limited experience)"


Now that sounds more like it. What do you expect for 16 year old though? I don't have enough money to buy more PCs to be able to have more experience.

I've only used Linix based OSes since last July and I think I have learnt so much about it compared to other people who have used it for one the same amount of time.

There's an idiot know-it-all in my IT class (not me ), who wanted to try out Linux. It was quite a humourous thing. First of all, the teacher (who also knows little about it) had a copy of Mandrake 9.2 laying around which is, OLD. Then I explained that to him and suggested Ubuntu. Then he started asking all the usual questions; I can just install all my games right? Can I install DirectX? Can I install Windows Media Player? MSN Messenger?

I explained to him, that he will have to use the alternatives to those programs that are available for Linux OSes. I told him that I use Totem linked with the Xine backend for playing video. He then proceeded to ask me where he can download this "Totem thing", which is when I explained that Linux distros often come with many programs, by default.

I feel like I'm rambling so I'll stop there, but what I'm trying to say is; if you had a person with zero PC experience with either Windows XP or Linux, he would find Windows so much easier, IMO.

- Rpg Cyco

Raven
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Posted: 6th Jun 2005 19:54
Quote: "Sorry, I should have mentioned I did a custom install, with more then default amount of packages, including 90% of the development ones."


SuSE 9.2 Professional is 5.2GB fully installed. And it has to compile quite a lot of that specifically for the hardware.

Quote: "Very odd indeed! Out of the 4 or so distros I've tried, it's only taken at max, 45 seconds. That was on my sloest PC as well. Having said that, I haven't used SuSE before. I've read that it's fairly slow though, in terms of general performance, so I've stayed away from it."


Fedora and Debian both boot quite quickly. I'd say around 60sec in total, and they do a quick scan of the hardware in-use. Generally though when your doing a full hardware scan to find out what drivers you need (particularly during installation) it can take quite a while.

SuSE is possibly the worst. It quickly scans my entire system(s) relatively fast, only a few seconds.. but when it's scanning the Hard Disk(s); depending on how many and how large it can take between 5 and 40minutes.

Actually I'm not sure the max cause I have one system (specifically for rendering) that has 5 SCSI Drives, each are quite large. It's a combined 1.2TB Space. So yeah imagine having to search through that, bloody nightmare without NT's Indexing.

Quote: "Gentoo's package manager is called Portage. I have never used it, but from what I understand it automatically downloads the source for whatever you request and compiles it for you. Sounds very messy, and comments from other users support that. I personally want to stay away from that distro.

As for YaST, I'm under the impressions that it contains NVIDIA Drivers, but as for other hardware I have no idea. Haven't used it"


Ah Portage.. yeah, it's a very good system actually as far as being able to find basically anything you want. Problem is it's not exactly 'user friendly' heh

YaST pissed me around with the NVIDIA drivers, didn't download during installation despite claiming it was; so ended up with 0KB drivers; which surprise-surprise it crashed trying to access, so Ctrl-Del to get back to root, release X-Free and restart manually.

which believe me is a pain without an instruction manual on the reboot sequence. X-Free doesn't like the 'generic' inputs on SuSE.

In the end I settled for the limited support.

Quote: "So yeah, fairly standard, mature, hardware. Supports your hypothesis. Just as a side note, what do you consider as non-standard hardware? Bleeding edge stuff?"


Not sure. Cyrix, IDT, NexGen, VIA, and Identech x86 Processors you WILL have problems with. Trust me, they might be pure variations of the standard; but because of that they lack some of the IA32 features. People forget quickly that Linux is i386 is actually now IA32-Based rather than i386-Based; the differences are minor but then that's what causes incompatibility.

ATi I would also consider, because they don't provide drivers and thier VGA support is quite reknown for being.. well crap.
(though honestly I wouldn't trust NVIDIA cards in (S)VGA pure mode for too long)

Linux also doesn't like using 64bit CPU's in 32bit mode. Windows has no issues there, but Linux will throw a hissy fit about it.
Same goes for the new Dual-Core processors; we have an pre-release oem one kindly donated by AMD. Linux claimed it wasn't an x86 processor, which was fun; so again had to run it in 64bit. It couldn't use the enhancements the speed was basically the same as the standard version. In Windows it saw it as 2 Processors, which I found amusing.

I don't think either OS really supports them yet.

Quote: "I feel like I'm rambling so I'll stop there, but what I'm trying to say is; if you had a person with zero PC experience with either Windows XP or Linux, he would find Windows so much easier, IMO."


yeah that has been my point on why Microsoft will continue to be top dogs.

as far as the operating systems go, I don't see one being particularly special over the other.

MacOSX has shown that with the proper support, it can be a very user-friendly Operating System capable of being every bit as nice as Windows XP.

Yet this all said, even MacOSX has nothing particularly special over Windows XP. I enjoy using both daily, and I don't see this changing any-time soon.

The main reason I use SuSE over all other Linux, despite it's reputation.. is simply because Cedega is built-in and it is one of the most user-friendly builds to date. I wouldn't call it particularly user Friendly but it certainly is much easier to handle.

With Mono .NET 1.7.0 installed effectively it has become almost as compatible as Windows XP conserning Winodws Software.

Yeah there are some niggles here and there, but I can run Half-Life 2 in full DirectX mode as well as my own little .NET programs. So I'm happy and it makes a very good development platform.

Still I do use Windows far more often because; something it is easier to know things 'just work' rather than having to wonder if you've set-up something correctly or installed the correct libraries to the kernel.

Been using Linux since it was effectively released, and well I've never really seen much about what it provides over Unix other than a smaller footprint really.

Killswitch
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 01:24 Edited at: 7th Jun 2005 01:37
One thing I do happen to like about Linux is that it is different from Windows. It sounds weird but sometimes its kinda nice to have a break from the same style of menus/windows it just gets kinda boring.

I've only ever found one distro that's truely different, GoblinX. But it had problems recognising my CTX monitor and ate up to many system resources so I couldn't use it on my old computer.

If anyone knows of a linux distro thats pretty unconventional (i.e. not with KDE or Gnome) I'd be happy to try it out on my old machine.

Edit: Just being a bit more clear, not nesascarily without KDE or Gnome, just without the standard kilcker/menu. If you want an idea of what I mean goto:

http://www.goblinx.com.br/en/

I'm not going back on what I previously said, I do prefer Windows XP - but I'm not going to fork out for a new copy on a machine I wouldn't use much. I'd just like to play around.

So, any matches?

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
GothOtaku
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 09:03 Edited at: 7th Jun 2005 09:07
Quote: "Linux uses purely your Physical Memory. This poses a huge problem in a number of ways."


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

Raven... no, wrong.

Linux has virtual memory.

Actually, why do I even bother....

Quote: "Give it time; the only people I know who really love Linux are people who don't spend 24|7 at thier workstation using it. Those who do pray that the employer gods will grant them Macs."

Except, you know, all those people that don't...

Quote: "Not sure. Cyrix, IDT, NexGen, VIA, and Identech x86 Processors you WILL have problems with."


Cyrix (5x86, 6x86, 6x86MX, and MediaGX), no.
VIA (C3 and later), no.

The others, perhaps, seeing I'm not familiar with them but given your record for factual accuracy I doubt it.
Raven
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 09:42 Edited at: 7th Jun 2005 09:44
Quote: "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

Raven... no, wrong.

Linux has virtual memory.

Actually, why do I even bother...."


That's a good question, because obviously you don't know how Linux works.

Quote: "Except, you know, all those people that don't..."


That should read:
'Except, ya know, all those people who've not used MacOSX...'

Quote: "Cyrix (5x86, 6x86, 6x86MX, and MediaGX), no.
VIA (C3 and later), no."


Really? See this is strange, because I happen to have each of those Processor types; and the Cyrix crash every 20minutes; hell you can almost set your watch to it.

VIA C3, Mini, and Eden all refuse to boot any Linux distro I've tried.. I wanted to use it for a personal project, along with those processor types; and the support Linux has for them would mean a complete rewrite, which defeated the whole point in wanting to use an x86 in the first place.

[edit]
Killswitch, Damn Small Linux has a very good system. It's still X-Free based; and the default themes are Windows derivitives, however the scripting allows you to alter the menu in any way you choose.

I got bored one day, linked it with OpenGL (for my Quadro) and made myself a snazzy GameCube menu system. Fairly easily customisable but alot of the rest of the OS isn't.

Raven
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 10:27
Quote: "Raven, Linix is a Operating System build on...what is it called...like command.com. The OS is NOT linix, it is only software. Linix is the Command.com thing (not windows command.com) the OS is build by other people."


Command.com is Microsoft's Boot/Kernel for DOS. Nothing to do with Linux.

Quote: "he runs more aplications then needed, why else would XP need like 128mb of ram and 95 only needs 8mb."


Windows 95 had a much smaller Library Set.
You see Windows works through Reuseable Libraries to provide common functionality.

This means that when you build a program. Rather than bloating your code with the entire library or having to code something yourself, you can simple Link Microsoft's Function.

The best part being that is it compatible with any hardware that is compatible with Windows. Rather than Compatiblity being on a Hardware-by-Hardware Basis.

Since 95, Windows has grown these libraries to include larger and more complex functionality.

Windows API alone (the driving force behind the User Interface you use) is capable of achiving so much but because of it's design it is very cheap to impliment.

Although Windows XP will use 96MB (64B is actually used) for the Libraries and Functionality.. you also have to note that programs have much smaller memory footprints as a result.

For example. Sharp-Develop IDE, under Windows XP will use around 8MB while running Resident.. The same program using GTK+ in Linux will use 42MB.

So while Linux will load default libraries in to a smaller space than Windows (50MB), the fact remains that the overall memory useage is reduced due to a result of reusable code.

As Mono .NET developers further Linux' memory requirements will actually drop almost as far as Windows, and programs will run almost seemlessly.

Right now there is quite a bit of overhead because of how Linux works.

Still there are other examples like FireFox. Windows 6MB Footprint, Linux 23MB Footprint. As it is loading and using the majority of GTK in the code itself, rather than as part of a library that is running for all progams.

indi
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 12:04
when you setup a linux distro they all ask for a swap partition or do it automatically, this is your virtual memory space to swap data from ram to the hard drive. OSX does it auto or manually just like many other distros. when you have 3 gigs of ram however a 6 gig swap partition is a large chunk on an older drive I cant wait till i can buy 8 gigs worth.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Raven
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 12:14
Quote: "when you setup a linux distro they all ask for a swap partition or do it automatically, this is your virtual memory space to swap data from ram to the hard drive."


The Swap Drive isn't quite the same as Virtual Memory though.

Linux uses it as a Cache, a place where it can store programs while your not using them. Hense the name 'Swap' because it shifts programs from the Active Memory to InActive Swap.

Windows however uses it as an overflow and background.
Your active program uses your free physical, however if a program is just working in the background, no longer in use, or exceed your physical memory. Windows will automatically use the Virtual Memory seemlessly (well as seemlessly as a 30GB -> 20MB Bandwidth can allow heh).

Thing how this works is most noticeable when a)Swapping Applications, Linux will do it instantly because everything is in Active Memory .. and b)When using Processor Intensive Applications, like Virus Scanners.

If however your browsing the Internet, when you minimise Explorer it just shifts everything to Virtual Ram freeing your physical and giving you more overall speed. On Linux when you minimise Dillo or FireFox and it won't make any different system-wise.

This said when you maximise Explorer will take a second or two to retrieve all it's data to render again, but FireFox will instantly be there. (well a minor gap for rerendering but the actual data is instantly accessible)

Hope that explains it better.

indi
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 12:47
um reading this content doesnt match with your view.

http://kb.iu.edu/data/aagb.html

What is a swap file?

A swap file allows an operating system to use hard disk space to simulate extra memory. When the system runs low on memory, it swaps a section of RAM that an idle program is using onto the hard disk to free up memory for other programs. Then when you go back to the swapped out program, it changes places with another program in RAM. This causes a large amount of hard disk reading and writing that slows down your computer considerably.

This combination of RAM and swap files is known as virtual memory. The use of virtual memory allows your computer to run more programs than it could run in RAM alone.

The way swap files are implemented depends on the operating system. Some operating systems, like Windows, can be configured to use temporary swap files that they create when necessary. The disk space is then released when it is no longer needed. Other operating systems, like Linux and Unix, set aside a permanent swap space that reserves a certain portion of your hard disk.

Permanent swap files take a contiguous section of your hard disk while some temporary swap files can use fragmented hard disk space. This means that using a permanent swap file will usually be faster than using a temporary one. Temporary swap files are more useful if you are low on disk space because they don't permanently reserve part of your hard disk.





then this website says:
http://www.faqs.org/docs/linux_admin/x1752.html



then this website says :
http://www.iit.bme.hu/~coll/interesting/computer_glossary.html#S

Swap File: An area of your hard disk that is set aside for virtual memory. Swap files can be either temporary or permanent.



then this site says :
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/debian/chapter/book/glossary.html

Swap File
A disk file or partition used to temporarily store information when system memory runs low

I think the point is that its virtual memory in both operating systems and a swap file or swap space is very similar.


perhaps im reading it wrong but swap is still the virt mem space for both oses and both oses copy info there when ram is low.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Jun 2005 13:16
Quote: "The Swap Drive isn't quite the same as Virtual Memory though."


"Virtual Memory" isn't anything at all - it's just a generic non-OS specific computing term implying memory that doesn't reside on physical chips. "It" isn't a tangible thing and has existed for decades. How it gets created (swap drive / pagefile / system cache / yadda yadda) is neither here nor there.. it's like that song "you say tomato, I say tomato". It doesn't matter how the OS uses VMem, that is OS specific and irrelevant, VMem is still merely VMem. A swap drive will always provide vmem functions in linux, just like the system cache will in XP. What they each do with it is of course going to be utterly different.

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices.

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