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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Why should abortion be illegalised, the person isn't even born yet?!

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:18
Quote: "Quote: " Basically the mother can do what she wants with the kid...it is hers!""



Quote: "so your mother should ba able to terminate your life?"


Ouch. He got you there.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:18 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:20
Quote: " Basically the mother can do what she wants with the kid...it is hers!"


I already debunked this argument. Read up and respond to the child murder comparisin if you want. It is no more right to abort a five month old fetus than for a mother to kill her fifty year old son.

Quote: "In fact, make that a snail. That's more an organism than a few week old embryo ever was, but I killed it.

Am I the devil?"


Animals do not have the same rights as humans or we'd live in an interesting society

Quote: "
Why do children in the process of being aborted try to escape from the utensils?
"


How true.

There was a detailed, very disturbing account of a Partial Birth Abortpion (legal in many areas) I read once. I think the shock if it might kick some sense into a lot of people who live under the perception that because they've never seen the child, it's okay to pretend it's not real. But it's far too graphic and disturbing to post here.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:19
Some people just pick something, and believe it blindly, not matter what is thrown at them.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:19
Quote: "Animals do not have the same rights as humans or we'd live in an interesting society "


OMG your going way over the top!...Chill out...

Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:21
Quote: "
OMG your going way over the top!...Chill out..."


Excuse me? He provided an example, I explained why it was different from abortion. Chill yourself buster.

Quote: " Some people just pick something, and believe it blindly, not matter what is thrown at them. "


Like you, having now managed to avoid answering three conclusive responses to every one of the arguments you've supported

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:21 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:22
You see this is why no one likes Mice.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:22 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:24
Dude you need to get a life especially at your age...


Quote: "Chill yourself buster"


Whoa fighting talk!

DBAlex
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:23 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:23
Hahahaha!

Mouse is allways like that Darkflame, Overflated ego i suppose...

Or should we call that American?


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:23 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:24
Quote: "Like you, having now managed to avoid answering three conclusive responses to every one of the arguments you've supported"



Yeah, cause bloody people are posting every 0.4 seconds and I can hardly keep up with my own writing, let alone some "conclusive responses".

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
the_winch
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:24 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:24
Quote: "Animals do not have the same rights as humans or we'd live in an interesting society"


But why not? They are just as much alive as unborn baby.

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:24
It's funny how many people resort to personal attacks when they have nothing left to defend their point, as above.

The funny thing is I'm having a casual conversation with Mnemonix about Oblivion while this debate is going. It's unbelievable how stressed out some people get. Perhaps it has to do with being proved wrong

Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:24
Quote: "But why not? They are just as much alive as uborn baby.
"


LMAO so damn true!

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:24
Quote: "ude you need to get a life especially at your age..."




It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
zenassem
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:25
Quote: " There's no such thing as "hardly alive"...

Either it's alive or it's dead..."


Maybe in Binary or Boolean logic

Someone needs to take a course in Fuzzy logic.
If I have an apple.
And I eat the apple.
At what point is it no longer an apple.
Logic in the real world is not black and white yes or no 1 or 0.
There is a gray area.
There are fuzzy sets

there are times
when
a=b and a=not b are both true


just had to throw that into the mix

~zen

Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:25
Quote: "being proved wrong "


Who's being proved wrong..its our opinions.

Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:26
Quote: "But why not? They are just as much alive as uborn baby."


But they are not sentient beings.

Quote: "Yeah, cause bloody people are posting every 0.4 seconds and I can hardly keep up with my own writing, let alone some "conclusive responses"."


Feel free to slow down and try to tackle my original argument then. Whatever your excuse is, I have nailed all three of your points. I know there are some valid defenses... come on, put your back into it

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:26 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:28
I quit.

Mouse: Screw you.

Dark Flame: Don't even bother with these people. Some of them are inherited thier stubborness from Hitler.

Everyone else: Dinner is served!

Bye!

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:27
Quote: "Who's being proved wrong..its our opinions."


http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=boiling_blood

Check the first image and the paragraph below it

Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:27
Quote: "Dark Flame: Don't worry about it. "


Thanks dude and i won't.

the_winch
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:28
Quote: "But they are not sentient beings."


Not even apes?

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:28 Edited at: 5th Jun 2005 07:29
Quote: "Mouse: Screw you."


Quad erat demonstratum

Quote: "Not even apes?"


Apes are more sentient-- and thus it is less acceptable to kill an ape baby. In fact that is animal cruetly and it is, in my opinion, a very twisted thing to do. Ants and snails, however, the example David brought up, are extremely undeveloped creatures that will never be sentient. See?

Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:28
I too am a great fan of maddox but hes a just a normal guy like me and you and has his own opinions.

DBAlex
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:29
Funny how when someone cant counter an argument they turn to latin...




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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:29
My guess is that the majority of pro-abortion people here don't have a child of their own.

I would also guess that most of them have never had to consider the situation. Anyone who had would not defend it so vehemently, because they would realise the trauma that goes with it. Even people who choose abortion suffer deeply. They certainly wouldn't talk like people are doing here.

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:30
Quote: " I too am a great fan of maddox but hes a just a normal guy like me and you and has his own opinions."


Well it's good to know that it's just your opinion that it's just his opinion that nobody should care whether it's just your opinion that I have my own opinion.

See how ridiculous this crap is?

The point is, drop the "that's just your opinion" defense. It's bullcrap and people use it when they have nothing left.

(I can see it coming already: But Mouse, that's just your opinion!)

Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:30
Quote: "Par to the course, Raven, you completely miss the entire argument. A human fetus is an individual living being temporarily reliant on its host for sustinince, not an organ of a woman's body."


See now this is the problem isn't it.
As while, yes it is a symbiotic relationship; the problem is that up until a given stage the faetus actually is part of the female body.

The female body is designed specifically to interlink with the baby to generate and provide more than just sustinance. A heart and blood system doesn't develop in the faetus until it is 3 Trimesters in.

This is the entire reason for the cut-off point to Abortion. After that point the baby is capable albeit in a limited capacity to rely on itself. Up to that point though it requires a direct link with the mother's bloody system in order to have blood pumped around it's body.

Really the decision isn't something that an outsider can make for the mother, no matter the situation. Simple fact of the matter is that pregancy isn't an exacting science.

There is no way to decide what is and isn't alive. Just being alive also doesn't make something a concious invidiual.

Plants breath, they are alive. Yet they're not considered concious.
Cows breath, interact, have a social structure.. yet when they're deseased, ill or infirm, farmers kill them. The same for humans is an illegal practise.

Being able to declare when a life is worth more than another or given intelligence, surely cannot be a decision made by anyone except a) the person who's life it is, or b) the personl who cares for that life.

In either circumstance, it is non of my business; and it is non of your business.

the_winch
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:30
Quote: "Apes are more sentient-- and thus it is less acceptable to kill an ape baby."


So it would be ok to kill a severely mentally retarded person?

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:31
Quote: "a=b and a=not b are both true
"



Im a computer and very confused now.

You guys should listen to Mouse because 99% of the time his points are valid, and dont slag him when he kicks your arse...I usually lose my arguments with him.

As Mouse said...QED

Try out the controller:-
http://controller.logicstudios.net
Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:33
Quote: "There is no way to decide what is and isn't alive."


There you are, to an extent, right.

Quote: "In either circumstance, it is non of my business; and it is non of your business."


And there you are absolutely not right.

But on the first point: No, we can't know what exactly is alive, and what isn't. But since we can not draw a concrete line anywhere, it is only humane to assume that something is a living human when we are uncertain. If we are wrong, we have caused, at worst, some unnecesary suffering; if we are right, we have averted murder. This is the core of the issue.

Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:34
Quote: "So it would be ok to kill a severely mentally retarded person?"


No. If it's not okay to kill an ape, it's certainly not okay to kill a retarted person. I don't know and I have no way of knowing how closely humanity is intertwined with mental capacity. This is where the difficulty of deciding whether a mentally dead person should be kept alive or not or not comes into play. Refer to my above argument about uncertaintly and tending on the side of life.

vid1987
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:36
Quote: "Maybe in Binary or Boolean logic

Someone needs to take a course in Fuzzy logic.
If I have an apple.
And I eat the apple.
At what point is it no longer an apple.
Logic in the real world is not black and white yes or no 1 or 0.
There is a gray area.
There are fuzzy sets

there are times
when
a=b and a=not b are both true


just had to throw that into the mix"


So... zen.. you wanna have a go at me? LOL

Well let's commence!

I have studied fuzzy logic and I do realize there is a number between 0 and 1 and it does make sense in a lot of things but that is different for life... besides, don't be silly.. fuzzy logic is used to calculate the chances of something happening..

I do believe in life force and I think it could be calculated with numbers.. but.. answer this?... if someone invented a device that could print how much life force a person had and they were indeed alive then their life force would be somewhere above 0 even if it was at.000000001 they would still be considered alive.. but if it went to 0 they would be dead.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Peace


"If I wasn't so poor... I'd be rich..." Me
Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:40
Ok Deb, lets suppose that such a machine was invented...

Suppose somebody wanted an abortion, and the fetus had a "life force" of 0 meaning that it had no life force? Does this actually affect the argument, because it will have a life force if its born, so clearly isnt this still murder?

Try out the controller:-
http://controller.logicstudios.net
the_winch
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:43
Quote: "Do you understand what I'm trying to say?"


If life is either their or not how can you justify killing animals and plants for your own survival?

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:45
Easy answer: Because you can.

It's M-E-G-A-T-O-N. NOT MEGATRON.
DON'T MAKE ME GET THE RABBIT.
soadjason
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:45
Quote: "If life is either their or not how can you justify killing animals and plants for your own survival?"

Animals are tasty. mmmm hamburger
Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:45
Quote: "And there you are absolutely not right."


Explain to me how it is your business? or my business?
We're not the one who have to provide this child sustience.
We're not the one who will have to risk perminant back injury due to carrying.
We're not the one who have to endure 9months of changing hormones followed by a 50:50 Chance of Post-Natual Depression.
We're not the one who have to risk bringing a child that could potencially mis-carriage causing pain and in some cases a sevear case of post-natual.
We're not the ones who have to make sure the child is cared for, for at-least 16 years of it's life.

Seriously, your just a kid.. with so many many many (etc.) opinions, yet you've not really lived long enough to understand anything yet.

Hell I'm almost what, a decade older than you.. I'm still just as clueless about how the world works as I was in school. How can you make decisions, takes stand-points that could decision on if a person lives or dies?

It's like talking to one friend in an arugment and thinking that thier position is right; before thinking 'well hold up, there is another side to this'.

In the end the only people who have 100% of the information are the two people involved, and they're the only people who can come to decision. Now I can offer advice, but still the end result is it is not my business to get involved and will just cause problems if I did.

If my girlfriend was ever pregnant and wanted to go through with abortion or something, then I'd give her all the information I could; but at the end of the day. Not my body, not my decision.

Sure, if she goes through with it, then I'd be sad because you can't help but think about what could be. Yet.. It isn't my place to tell her she can or can't.

Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:45
Quote: "Suppose somebody wanted an abortion, and the fetus had a "life force" of 0 meaning that it had no life force? Does this actually affect the argument, because it will have a life force if its born, so clearly isnt this still murder?"


What if the fetus has a life force of Pi? That would be like killing god

BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:46
"seeing an 11-week-old foetus doing quite sophisticated things opened my own eyes to the fact that we did not know how rapidly the foetus developed

His [Prof. Cambell] pictures showed that at 12 weeks, unborn babies looked like they were "enjoying jumping off the womb like a trampoline". At 14 and 15 weeks they sucked their thumbs and at 18 weeks they opened their eyes. Experts had said babies did not open their eyes until 26 weeks.

One image he took captured a 14-week-old standing up, stretching and then sitting down again inside his mother's womb."


BatVink
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:47
Life force machine.... god damn hippies...

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!
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soadjason
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:48
Quote: "Hell I'm almost what, a decade older than you.. I'm still just as clueless about how the world works as I was in school."

read a newspaper.
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:49
Quote: "What if the fetus has a life force of Pi? That would be like killing god "


No, if it had a life force of "42" then it would be like killing god.

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!
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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 07:54
An unborn child at 20 weeks gestation β€œis fully capable of experiencing pain... Without question, [abortion]
is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure.”

– Robert J. Wh ite, MD., Ph.D. professor of neurosurgery, Case Western R eserve University

! 18 Days Brain
The brain begins to take shape only 18 days after conception. By
20 days, the brain has already differentiated into forebrain,
midbrain, and hind brain, and the spinal cord has started to
grow.(1)
! 5 Weeks Pain Receptors
Four or five weeks after conception, pain receptors appear
around the mouth, followed by nerve fibers, which carry stimuli
to the brain. By 18 weeks, pain receptors have appeared
throughout the body. Around week 6, the unborn child first
responds to touch.(2, 3)
! 6 Weeks Cortex
In weeks 6-18, the cerebral cortex develops. By 18 weeks the cortex
has a full complement of neurons. In adults, the cortex has been
recognized as the center of pain consciousness.(3)
! 8 Weeks Thalamus
During weeks 8-16, the thalamus develops, functioning as
the main relay center in the brain for sensory impulses going from
the spinal cord to the cortex.(1)
! 14-18 Wks Nerve Tracts
In week 18, nerve tractsconnecting the spinal cord and the
thalamus are established, and nerves from the thalamus first
contact the cortex in week 20. Nerve fibers not routed through
the thalamus have already reached the cortex by 14 weeks. (3,4)
! 18 Wks Stress Hormones
As early as 18 weeks, stress hormones are released by an unborn
child injected by a needle, just as they are when adults feel pain. Hormone levels in those babies decrease as pain-relievers are supplied.(7)
! Before 18 Weeks?
Even before nerve tracts are fully established, the unborn child
may feel pain; studies show anencephalic infants, whose cortex
is severely reduced if not altogether missing, may experience pain as
long as other neurological structures are functioning.(6)
! 20 Wks All Parts in Place
With pain receptors, spinal cord, nerve tracts, thalamus, and cortex in place, all anatomical links needed for pain transmission to the brain, for feeling pain, are present.

BatVink
Eric T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:00
If the case is, a child gets pain receptors at 5 weeks after conception, then my opinion is:

Abortion should be fine UP TO 1 month. After one month, then it should be on a case by case basis. There should be people to review each case and say "can this woman abort or not" depending on her reasoning.

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DBAlex
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:01
I know its a really sick thing to say but, What does it matter if a baby feels pain if its going to die anyway?




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Dark Flame
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:05
But think about it, its not like the babys gonna feel pain and think "Thanks for that you f*cking jerkoffs".

Eric T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:05
DBAlex-

Whats it matter if your going to feel pain if your going to die anyway? I'm sure you'd enjoy a painless death... or even a chance to live, right?

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Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:07
Quote: "Abortion should be fine UP TO 1 month. After one month, then it should be on a case by case basis. There should be people to review each case and say "can this woman abort or not" depending on her reasoning."


There is the fact that we don't know if Abortion is painful.
After all there are drugs you can take where you feel sleepy and you just never wake up, there would arguably be completely painless.

DBAlex
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:08


Well yeah, But, The baby's not exactly going to mind seeing as it will die, But if its an old person then they deserve a painless death because well theyve probably been through a hell of a lot of pain with the ilness they've had anyway...


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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:12
Quote: "After all there are drugs you can take where you feel sleepy and you just never wake up, there would arguably be completely painless."


But they don't even give the babies these drugs. They feel all the pain of being sliced apart or having their skulls crushed to make their passage out of the womb easier.

Raven
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Posted: 5th Jun 2005 08:21
Quote: "But they don't even give the babies these drugs. They feel all the pain of being sliced apart or having their skulls crushed to make their passage out of the womb easier."


until the umbillical cord is cut, any drugs the mother is given also pass on to the child.

can't say I have any idea what they do in an abortion clinc; and not to be funny but i'm not going to take your word that they don't give either drugs to ease the operation.

I'd largely wager that they do. As I know that during a saserian, they don't give the mother drugs because the baby needs to be awake. So this would indicate that they're also tranfered. So if they knock out the mother during the operation which I suspect they do, then that would mean the baby just goes to sleep and never wakes up.

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