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Work in Progress / Normal Map Generator

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MikeS
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Posted: 18th Aug 2005 21:46
Thanks for the compliments guys.

---------------------------
Is anyone else having the problem Merix and Skalex are having? If so, I'll build another version before the 23rd and get that fixed.



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Dot Merix
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Posted: 18th Aug 2005 22:04
@MikeS... I finally figured out what was wrong(not sure if it's supposed to be that way..)

In any case, i never knew the model and image file had to be in the same directory as your normal maps generator program.

I figured because you had the browse feature that i could browse to a different location and it would load it from there and save the normal map image into your generator directory.

This is not the case. I took the model and image file, put it in the same directory as your program and it works fine



WindowsXP Home(Service pack 2), Athlon XP 2400+(2.1Ghz), 1GIG Ram, Ati Radeon 9800Pro 128MB.
MikeS
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Posted: 18th Aug 2005 22:32
Okay, good to see you can at least use the newest beta then.

I'm working on fixing the browse bug, but I guess I'm not too good with the directory commands. That, or I just need to make a new system.

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Deadwords
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Posted: 19th Aug 2005 02:19
i did the same thing than Metrix, it worked. When i pressed space to generate the normal map, it crashed. No error message, the program just created a .txt file called CrashOn 08_18_05.

what happened? oh and, i checked in the folder of my project, here's nothing.

=-{SKaleX}-= Current Projects: -Insane Killer-=-Chaos Zone-
David T
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Posted: 19th Aug 2005 12:29
Quote: "I'm working on fixing the browse bug, but I guess I'm not too good with the directory commands. That, or I just need to make a new system. "


Why change the diretory? Couldn't you just use an absolute path to the model and image to load?

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
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mm0zct
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Posted: 21st Aug 2005 02:46
catch me on msn some time and i'll hel you out with the directory issues. i'f you're not on msn in the next few days i'll use email.

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 21st Aug 2005 13:11
Wow Mike this is very nice, excellent work man, I'm sure I can use this for some Quikly Models

MikeS
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Posted: 21st Aug 2005 19:28
@mm0zct

Okay mm0zct, sounds good.

@Kangaroo2

Thank you very much. I'd love to see this used with your Quikly Models.



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cdborrego
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Posted: 24th Aug 2005 16:40
Is there a posibility to see a 800x600x16 or a 1024x768x16 version of the aplication within the next weeks?

Thanks.

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MikeS
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Posted: 27th Aug 2005 21:54
Yes, there's definitly a possibility.

-----------------

I haven't had much time to update the program, but I should have some later this weekend.



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cdborrego
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Posted: 28th Aug 2005 22:31
Thanks MikeS.

www.nusofstudios.com
cdborrego
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Posted: 29th Aug 2005 22:34
I finally tried the aplication , but unfortunately I got an error or a bug .

When I change the Col_Z model and the texture for some of my own models and textures (always keeping the orininal ColZ names for the texture and model) and when I press the spacebar key, I can only see the original model but not the bump mapped one..... and I've tried with several models but always got the same bug.

Only works with the original ColZ.x model...... or what I'm doing wrong?

www.nusofstudios.com
Deadwords
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 23:25
hmm. MikeS? Oh no, now he really lost the notion of time

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MikeS
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Posted: 11th Sep 2005 23:50
Thanks for reporting the bugs cdborrego.

I apologize for taking so much time between updates. I'm lucky if I get an hour to work on anything or even relax these days. If I do, I'm working with the Eternal Destiny team to hit our deadlines.

I have however decided to make two versions of the program. One will be lightweight, and will quickly generate the normal maps, while the other will have all the fancy 3D previews and display and such. This unfortuantly could take up to 2 months, as I hardly have any free time.

However, I'll leave the latest release up, which is somewhat functional with a few work arounds.



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Deadwords
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Posted: 12th Sep 2005 17:50
MikeS i emailed you again this time it's for a good reason

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Scraggle
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Posted: 4th Dec 2005 12:59
Sorry to resurrect a near-dead post but it seems a shame to let this one die.

Any more news about this Mike?
Are you still working on it?


MikeS
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Posted: 4th Dec 2005 19:08
Today marks the first day I have time to work on it. With Christmas break coming up, I'm hoping to have the light version of this normal map editor finished. To elaborate on the light version, all it will do is produce normal maps and view the model, rather than have all the fancy stuff the other version had(and will eventually have).



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Deadwords
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Posted: 4th Dec 2005 21:46
Cool. I hope this time, NMG will work without any bug on my PC.

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MikeS
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Posted: 4th Dec 2005 22:13
It's being designed so that it can run on any resolution. So that should hopefully increase the userbase of this tool greatly.



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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 5th Dec 2005 18:38
what happens is someone loads it on a machine that wont support Normal Mapping? (for example, my work machine with onboard "graphics" card... It can barely handle windows!)

Deadwords
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Posted: 6th Dec 2005 16:41
Nicholas Thompson, there's 2 possibilities: Crash or simply no Normal Mapping on the preview.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 11th Dec 2005 23:29
@MikeS

Just downloaded your application, chose low resolution and loaded your model and texture. Played around with the view for a bit - the initial orientation meant I couldn't see the models properly - then pressed the spacebar to get the normal map, etc. Instant crash with following text:

[COMMON]
PathToEXE=C:\Program Files\The Game Creators\Graphics\Normal Map Generator Beta2\CrashOn_12_11_05.txt
[CEXE]
m_dwRuntimeErrorDWORD=Internal Code:12002
m_dwRuntimeErrorLineDWORD=618


I'm using an NVIDIA GeFORCE FX 5200 128Meg graphics card, if that helps.

(Getting the files in the right directory seems to be a trivial issue by comparison - why do people get excited by that?)
MikeS
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Posted: 13th Dec 2005 02:20 Edited at: 13th Dec 2005 02:30
Thanks for the report Green Gandalf.

@Nicholas Thompson

A third option would be to use the less system intense blend mode 24. With a little bit of trickery, it'll look almost as good as the original normal mapped model. I suppose once I complete the source export, I'll include a function for that as well.



[EDIT] Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention the good news. I recently purchased BlueGUI 2, so that will solve all the problems we had with dialogs, as well as provide a clean interface. As well as this normal mapping program, I'm developing another program you may find useful as well. Holiday break is coming up, so I'll have alphas/betas of each of them around Christmas.



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Deadwords
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 01:53
I always get the exact same error than Green Gandalf...

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MikeS
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 21:29 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2006 06:35
Here's the new light version of the Normal Map generator. Currently the 3D preview is disabled, as that'll take some time to develop properly. This version should be compatible with most systems, and it's goal is to just create 2D normal maps. My releasing this in its current state is in hopes that someone will find a bug or break this application so I can further improve it before adding the 3D preview amongst other features.

Currently known bugs:
-Status bar disappears when project is reset

Thanks for testing


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MikeS
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Posted: 15th Jan 2006 19:36 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2006 06:34
Here's the latest version. 0.70. Fixed the statusbar error and added a primitive 3D Preview.
[Link Removed, newer version in the works]

1 More bug found. If you click load image or load object, you cannot cancel out of it without the program exiting. I'll get on that as soon as possible.

Latest screenshot here.




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Deadwords
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 15:03
Works great!
Do you will implant a better 3D Preview? (Mouse camera control, zoom)
And do you know when we will be able to export the DBPro code? Because with the command "Set bump mapping on" i can't get to great result like the preview.

Look at that

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dark coder
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 16:16
looks really bad actually, best to make normals seperately, as youve just demonstrated thats obviously just using the texture as the normal map which wont be very usefull in places.

Halowed are the ori.
Darkbasic MADPSP
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Posted: 16th Jan 2006 17:21
looks great

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MikeS
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Posted: 17th Jan 2006 23:20
Thanks Skalex, the 3D preview will be enhanced in the next release. This primitive viewer is just to get something up and running.
In the next release, I'll add in the export code routine. It's as simple as the 'set bump mapping on' command used with point lighting.

It is true that the normal map will not be as great as one generated from the actual geometry of a million polygon object to a low poly model. However, if the model was never intended for that detail, or if a user doesn't have resources to such high end 3D tools, this will get the job done just fine. Once I add in more control over the generated image, then perhaps you will see more impressive results. Also, for simple objects such as a wall, you will not see too big of a difference, and save much time.

Thanks DarkBasic Mad.



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The admiral
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Posted: 24th Jan 2006 05:47
Is it possible to create a high poly model and use it in your tool to generate a light map then apply it to a lower poly model?

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MikeS
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Posted: 26th Jan 2006 03:38
The models geometry doesn't matter with this program. The normal map is generated from the texture image. If you have a higher resolution texture, you could certainly generate a normal map from that, and then apply it to a lower poly model.

It's a possibility that I'll add in a generate for greyscale images for those who want a plain heightmap. From the heightmap, a lightmap could possibly be created.



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jasonhtml
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 22:30
wow! i tried ur light version and it was great! just a code-export option would be nice

good job

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MikeS
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 05:44
Thanks jasonhtml. Next version I'll include the export code function.



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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 10th Feb 2006 17:43
VERY cool

Fps world of mayhem 10%

MikeS
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Posted: 13th Feb 2006 04:33
Thanks 3ds Master.

If anyone has found any more bugs please let me know. As far as I know it should be fairly unbreakable other than the file requester bug mentioned above.



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moogal
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Posted: 15th Feb 2006 22:06
I have zBrush but I haven't had the time to learn it properly. I do like the pics from the normal mapper, and I'd like to use this with Quikly game studio. My question basically is how can a normal map be generated from a texture? Isn't this similar to the way alot of artists create their bumpmaps from textures by converting them to greyscale (and sometimes negative)? This is an easy technique, but inaccurate. Wouldn't the normal map be better produced from a properly produced bumpmap instead?
moogal
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Posted: 16th Feb 2006 21:56
Also, does the process take into account the angles of the polygons when the map is computed? For detailed meshes I usually set my edge smoothing to be around 20 degrees, and between 35-40 for low poly meshes. It looked to me like a lot of the hard edges on the guns were being smoothed over when some of them should have been preserved. Being able to set an edge crease angle would be very useful, but maybe I'm mistaken about how the resulting normal map gets used.
MikeS
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Posted: 4th Mar 2006 23:27
Quote: "My question basically is how can a normal map be generated from a texture? Isn't this similar to the way alot of artists create their bumpmaps from textures by converting them to greyscale (and sometimes negative)? "


Yes it's a very similar technique. Basically it's doing some work with the red and green values, and the default blue value is always a full 255.

Quote: "This is an easy technique, but inaccurate. Wouldn't the normal map be better produced from a properly produced bumpmap instead?"


A normal map would be better generated from polygons. This method however is much faster concerning development time and resources. Unfortuantely, many developers don't have time to generate high polygon models, the tools to do so, or a powerful enough computer to make a million polygon model.

Quote: "Also, does the process take into account the angles of the polygons when the map is computed? For detailed meshes I usually set my edge smoothing to be around 20 degrees, and between 35-40 for low poly meshes. It looked to me like a lot of the hard edges on the guns were being smoothed over when some of them should have been preserved. Being able to set an edge crease angle would be very useful, but maybe I'm mistaken about how the resulting normal map gets used."


Currently there is only one way to generate the normal maps, in which I have a basic alogrithm to make the normal map. However, I'm currently working on an editor that will allow you to have greater control over the edges and strength of the normal map generated.

-------------------------------

Today I did some more work. I've implemented the code export function, and the program now generates a project file where everything is packed into.



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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 4th Mar 2006 23:34
Quote: "Today I did some more work. I've implemented the code export function, and the program now generates a project file where everything is packed into.
"

Cool code exporter seems like i wasn't the only one playing around with exporters today then

MikeS
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Posted: 5th Mar 2006 00:17 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2006 06:37
Guess not.

There's also a good chance that I will be including a .ms3d(with animation), .asc, .dbo, and possibly more(such as .obj) 3D format exporters.


Another small addition I made today, the normal map will be displayed first, rather than the original texture. Soon I hope to implement scrolling as well, to ensure that you can see the whole image.



LATEST BUILD :
[Link Removed, newer version in the works]

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Deadwords
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Posted: 5th Mar 2006 01:03
Quote: "Currently there is only one way to generate the normal maps, in which I have a basic alogrithm to make the normal map. However, I'm currently working on an editor that will allow you to have greater control over the edges and strength of the normal map generated."

Awesome. I need this.

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moogal
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Posted: 5th Mar 2006 21:23
MikeS,

Wow, my patience paid off! I came here today to copy my comments so I could mail them to you, and now the thread has come back to life. OK, I actually have zBrush, so I could make my normal maps the proper way. Since I use Wings and am still too scared of zbrush to learn it properly, I want to reask my question. Couldn't your normal map generator produce better results with a bump map instead of a texture map? I'm always hearing people say that using a texture map to create a bump map (inverted or not) is wrong, and bumpmaps should be made from scratch. What do you think?
Cian Rice
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Posted: 5th Mar 2006 23:49
Tried it out and it's impressive. Definatly plan on using this for Urbia.

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jasonhtml
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Posted: 6th Mar 2006 03:25
i still cant figure out how to make the object less shiny makes my human model look like hes made of new plastic

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MikeS
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Posted: 8th Mar 2006 00:18
@moogal

All texture maps are first converted to greyscale images before the normal map is generated. Since a bump map is essentially a greyscale, that takes care of the problem. If you'd like, I could probably add in an export option for the greyscale once I add in more control for the normal maps(in case some users want or can only support standard bump maps). As far as making a bump map from scratch, that's a difficult question. For characters and organic objects, I think it's essential that you use the texture map. For things like walls, it's okay to make your own bump map, or combine it with the texture map to have a little bit more creative control.



@Anime Blood

Thanks. You'll also be excited to know that I have another rapid normal map generation function planned up. So users like yourself(whom I'm assuming will have many objects normal mapped) will be able to generated 10s(or possibly 100s) of normal maps at a time. It's as good as it sounds, for all it takes is specifying a few file paths.



@jasonhtml

Try fiddling with the set object emissive...

set object ambience
set object specular
set object diffuse
set object specular power

...commands. The specular and specular power commands should do the trick.



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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 8th Mar 2006 00:21
Just tryed the new alpha great work

Cian Rice
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Posted: 8th Mar 2006 02:31
That's great to hear MikeS. I'm really liking the proggy so far and that feature sounds even better.

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 10th Mar 2006 21:46
Bump... and a question.
So today I went to actually use the normal mapped models in DBP to mess aound with ambient settings to see how I could change the shinyness my self and well the exporeted normal map image didn't have a known file type... in fact it just said "File" so naturally I couldn't load it into DarkBASIC... any clue why this is happening?

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Xarshi
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Posted: 11th Mar 2006 06:00
does this use a shader cuz it just sorta shut down after i clicked generate normal map...

...

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