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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Wow beta patch 4 is well Wow!!!!!

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brittd
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 06:19
Ok I complied a new dungeon tutorial (eye of beholder but free 360 style)that is made up of hundreds if not thousands of wall objects under Patch 3.1.
Lets just say I was not impressed. I was getting 4 or 5 frames at best. Just to walk across a large room took 8 to 10 seconds. Now of course you could have done some programming to turn off some of the objects when not in view to speed things up,but that is not the point. Now I had heard about all the speed difference with the beta patch4 with 3d objects which is at release 2 as of tonight. Ran the patch, loaded and compiled the same exact dungeon demo and WOW!!!!! I don't mean just a noticeable speed increase I am talking about it was moving so fast it was unplayable. I was zipping around large rooms just by tapping the mouse button. I would guess the frames were no less then 60 to 100 fps.
Just to give you an idea of my hardware I have a Geforce 3 ti 200 running on a Celeron 1ghz 256L2 cache overclocked to 1.3ghz. A good mid-range machine.
All I can say is DBPro has open up a new range of ideas that are now possible when the Patch 4 final is released. As to bugs well a few are fixed with Patch 4 just having the brand new 3d system, but patch 4 will not be the fix all. I just wanted to give you watch you can expect with 3d object increases. They are so far beyond what I expected.
brittd
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 18:31
Since no replys I assume no interest. But here is one more piece of data from a lower end machine.
Pentium 3 733 with 512kb-L2, TNT2 PCI 16MB, 512MB ram.
Same dungeon tutorial with Patch3.1 to Beta Patch4 rel2.
Speed went from 4 frames to 40. Based on this real FPS info I am changing my first post "Guess" on FPS speed to over a hundred. The speed was way more then 2 or 3 times the TNT2 speed.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 18:45
I can't say anything as I'm not im DBDN, and therefore any description of the speed increase can only be viewed with interest.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 19:32
well i'm pretty sure you're not allowed to talk about what patches or features are if your bound by the DBDN agreement - so this might get deleted later.

This said, its not an unexpected transformation of speed - probably a good lesson in how a good pipeline can increase speed within a program

and if you had a GeForce2 mx or Raedon 7000 or Kyro2 card then i'd say thats an adverage system - but its a GeForce3 Ti - as DarkBasic Pro is more graphics card based than processor based for speed, having a piece of hardware which is well above adverage in processing means makes your results somewhere greater than adverage.

also no ones explained to you ever how stupid it is to overclock a processor so high... you should overclock a processor 100mhz at MOST, else the speed variance is too great for the processor die cast to handle - which can cause major instabilities causing incorrect data to be returned and even overheat the transistors to a point of melting pathways perminantly damaging the processor, and cutting its lifetime from around 20-30years to less than 2.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
ZomBfied
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 19:52
Who's gonna have a processor 20 years? in 2 years it's worthless anyhow --especially a celeron -which was worthless the day you got it. Melt away, dude! We don't need no water let the mutha f*%#er burn!

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 20:05
just because you don't see a use for them 2years down the line doesn't mean others don't ... the only reason i ever update it to make sure my creation programs are as fast as possible or games are.
And its only the latter which is more demanding, i'm still developing alot upon a 4year old machine my 3D and 2D work, and only go onto the more powerful machine for complex calculations or playing games at thier best.

it is prohibitally expensive to keep updating your machines all the time, something which most people can't afford to do - especially alot of college students i know who can afford the minimum systems at the time which have to last them for a good 3-4years.

if he wants to have a faster processor, perhaps he should purchase an AthlonXP 1200+ as you can pick them up for around £30-40 now along with a new motherboard, add to this the extra speed from having a full cache and the enhancements and that it is a faster processor.
The only reason you buy celeron or duron is cause you can't afford anything else - which suggests to me it's gotta last, and if thats the case then overclocking is just stupid.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
the_winch
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 21:27
I have a pentium mmx with a 100mhz increase in an mp3 server and never had problems with that.

Currently have a 1000 athlon at 1300+ and I am sure it will still be working at that speed in 5+ years and even if it only lasts 2 years I could get another one for less than £25. Since it's currently running cooler than a stock processor thats not very likley.

Rob K
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 21:51
Patch 4 DOES fix some long standing 3D bugs - I too have the beta (though only beta #1)

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Daz
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 22:02
I want Patch 4 NOW!

DarkBASIC Professional is the best programming utility.
8/10 Housewives agree!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 22:10
yeah D_D if you setup your system to use a special cooler so it does run cool enough then obviously its going to last longer because its all due to heat which melts the circuits ... however as to get something to keep processors cooler cost more than simply upgrading the processor, then really whats the point in overclocking?

sell it and purchase a real processor at that speed which will run cooler normally, whilst not being so unstable.
there are ALOT of instabilities which come with overclocking, so alot of problems you experience within DarkBasic, are likely not to be DB's fault at all but the fact your overclocking. You have to remember processors arn't designed to be run faster than the die cast and transistors, they're designed and built to run at a specific speed. if you run it slower then it because very unstable, if you run it faster its like giving it a cancer - it'll work fine for a while but overtime it'll become terminally ill to a point where you just have to throw it out.

There should be no reason for burning out a processor just for extra speed which really doesn't help alot, and remember fans nowadays are also speed responsive due to the motherboards autoheat detection ... this means they draw more power to run (even more if you have added cooling) which isn't only more expensive, but noiser and if the fans run faster they die quicker meaning greater costs in this respect - all for a few hundred more Mhz

really whats the point?
i'm not talking here just from a technical point of veiw, i've worked with system and processor setups - and over the years gain a very good understanding on how much stress you can put to them before it bein detrimental.
intels are purely THE WORST processor to overclock, because they'll run nice and cool at standard speeds but even as little as 33Mhz faster as they're heat demands go through the roof.

And don't think this is exclusive to processors either, if you overclock graphics cards chips you must know what threshold your card can take safely.

i mean sure a server machine will keep ticking over being overclocked, however it will slowly outsync the operating system and motherboard ... and unless you use it for anything demanding you won't notice.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
ZomBfied
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 22:57
...I just wanted to quote that "The Roof is On Fire" song one last time! Muh huh hah hah!

Rob K
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 23:47
@Daz

Don't say that! - I REALLY want DBS to fully fix and test Patch 4 before release. I do not want a repeat of DBP Patch 3.0 or DarkBASIC v1.09a. I am prepared to wait as long as it takes for DBS to fix the patch properly.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
TheCyborg
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 00:39
How about the size?? How big will the patch be in megs (aproximately)??

TheCyborg Development.
http://TheCyborg.Amok.dk
The Ultimate Source To DarkBASIC Programming.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 00:44
probably about 8-9mb they'll just be replacing the core DLLs plus the compiler no doubt

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
the architect
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 02:19
i am just glad someone has comfirmed lee bambers boast in the n.letter. wayhay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm looking forward to the patch being released asap but fbap please. Great. Dont rush but do hurry up!!!!!

MrTAToad
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 08:21
Will the installer routine work properly now !?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 11:05
WTF do people say 'megs'? i believe its 'MBs'...

xxxpetratxxx
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IanM
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 13:16
Don't rush, AND hurry up? Hmmm... I believe that the patch will be ready when it's ready!

I *can* confirm the following for patch 4:
- that it *is* a lot faster for 3D.
- that the size (without the installer) is currently 4.2MB
- nothing more
Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 13:34
your a good man IanM

xxxpetratxxx
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 14:13
petrat... its all what your used to how you say things,

i mean normally rather than mb, i'll say mbyte or mbit - because i got taught alot about net connections and motherboard hardware and when talking about that your talking in bits rather than bytes ... figuring out 8x multiples of bit figures for bytes on the fly isn't what my brain was designed for.

but then you have the french who say mo and ko ... will admit though people who say megs are quite annoying
that aside if the patch is about 4.2Mb w/o installer than should up to about 10-11 with one

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
IanM
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 14:25
Cynic
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 16:11
(^_^) hey hey no need to start callin' people names!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
xtom
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 19:21
It's quicker to say megs than megabits when speaking.
Daz
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 20:06
I don't want it rushed either, just sayin I want it, like the rest of you, ya dig?

DarkBASIC Professional is the best programming utility.
8/10 Housewives agree!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 20:15
yeah but you still have the problem of it being megs as in which bits or bytes
there is a big difference (^_^)

i've always spoken the whole words, seems right somehow - i mean it drives me nutz when people say stuff like HDD instead of Hard Disk, or FDD instead of Floppy ... but then that just how i've grown up - you have the names for things so that you know what they are, and you shorten them when there isn't a secondry meaning for them
you have to be relatively spot on when ordering things, the worst thing you'd want to happen is say i want 512megs of ram ... you slot it in and you've got 64Mbyte Ram
lmao that would be funny, but if it happened to someone else.

i know thats unlikely to happen, but its the same with network connections they're done in bits ... 512mbit ADSL line is really 64kbyte/second

so ya know does matter sometimes when you're talking about it

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
rapscaLLion
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 21:25
rofl my friend bought one of them mini fridges, put a tank and pump and such inside it, mounted on the wall in his basement and ran the pipes up to his comp. Homemade, and keeps his comp WAY cooler than most water cooling systems, I have seen it for myself, his comp can dip as low as 12 degrees C. And he says it's cheaper, don't know about that tho Course he is doing all that overclocking and such, so he needs it

Anyone see that TechTV episode where they use Liquid Nitrogen cooling to overclock an AMD to almost 5ghz from 3ghz? That was funny The pentium destabalized at almost 4 ghz, but the amd stayed stable up till just about 5ghz.

Oh, and I'm glad to hear that there is a real speed increase I do wish they would hurry up, because I want to compile under Patch 4, but I can't wait, this game HAS to be done by March. *sigh*

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Feb 2003 23:00
well depends ... i mean i can grab a mini-fridge for like $120-150, and the better cooling systems like a case with the builtin liquid coolers are around $250-300.

personally i don't care about overclocking, at home i have a dual 3Ghz Optiron system which runs on passive coolers with addition cooler fans mouted at the rear ... under XP Professional and .Net Professional i can setup the processors for programs that don't support Dual CPUs to be used Asyncroniously - in other words they're used as a single processor which is 6Ghz (or as close to) of power

system runs at around 31-35°c (120-140°f) which is around what most of my machines run at cept the laptop. But my room is pretty cold and i always have my covers off - really think its a far better solution.
Especially as all the Heatsinks i use are Passive so they don't use fans means my comp goes from like 15-20db to almost 3db (and thats only because of the Cd/DvD drives and HDDs)
with nothing attached there is zero noise

personally i'll have that over a super-cooled overclocked system anyday, especially as the lifetime of my processors is a good few years longer than the overclockers. So i don't have to upgrade my top notch system quite as much, with like 4Ghz processors costing around $1,500 certaily isn't cheap to keep updating every 6months even for me.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Feb 2003 01:40
BTW dont u know the diference between bits and bytes? there are 8 bits in a byte

xxxpetratxxx
B. R. W
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Feb 2003 01:59
explain to me how 8bits to the byte doesn't mean that 512mbit/8 = 64mbyte?

i got the above wrong for the net connection cause it isn't a 512mbit line ... god who wouldn't want one of them?

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
brittd
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Posted: 16th Feb 2003 06:02
Raven,

There is nothing on DBDN that stops people who belong talking about the patches. The only thing we signed was for the original Beta of DBPro.
I can talk all I want to about when a beta of path 4 is out.
Join DBDN and maybe you would know that. The tutorial I am talking about also is going to be released soon to public. They are not secret either, DBDN just gets first crack at them.

As to average maching look at my second Post. PIII 733 TNT2. Still big ass improvement. I think it is a little under power so don't know where you are coming from on average PC.

As to my overclocking well I have been doing since 1993 when AMD came out with a 486 133. clone. Had it OC to 166. Never burned out never crashed. It is all in keeping it cool. Had a Celeron 300 OC to 450. Never burned out & still have it. Then had a Pentium 500 OC to 633. Still have it.
Now up to Celeron 1ghz I bought for $40 bucks online. I have had it running for 4 month and machine rarly crashes. Hell I never turn if off unless I leave town.
Oh and sometime I even OC my Geforce3 just for an extra boot of 3d speed. I have always OC everything I can. To this day I have never burned a single chip.

I am not advocating everyone go out and do this, but personally I have never had a problem.

And please shut up about what you have at home, "dual 3Ghz Optiron" Optiron have not even been release and when they are the top speed Optiron is going to be around 2.4 Ghz. Of course this will blow a PIII 3ghz out of the Water, but it shows that you are a idiot!!!
brittd
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Posted: 16th Feb 2003 06:43
Here is a link if anyone is interested in the Release date of AMD next big chip "Opteron". Sorry for earlier Misspelling was just typing what Raven was raving about.

http://http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,854389,00.asp?kc=EWTH102099TX1K0100487
brittd
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Posted: 16th Feb 2003 06:47
Dang wish they had an edit button.
Here is the link about Speed of Initial "Opteron" Somewhere in the Rang of 2Ghz which is real fast for 64bit chips. Even Intels current 64bit chips are running below 1.5 Ghz.

http://http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,636049,00.asp
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Feb 2003 22:34
Somehow i feel that you'll more talk than reality here...
firstly the 486 processor clocks were never able to achieve 166Mhz, infact the fastest they could go was 120Mhz (with the Dx/4) - the 133Mhz was the 586 series which were kinda AMDs bridge to Pentiums whilst they caught up technology wise.

Also unlike you i know what market my games are going to hit - and its not the wealthy idiots who splat out cash on anything that is released but most likely college students and school kids ... for them they'd consider half of what people here use as a damn'd fast machine.

the Chip isn't called the Opteron, but the Optiron - and it isn't a 64bit processor but a 128/256bit hybrid processor designed to directly compete against the Pentium Xeon. To the business world it was released 12months ago starting at 2.5Ghz, but the lastest incarnation is 4.12Ghz.

There has been a public sector release of this chip called the AlthonMP - which has a complete level taken out making it cheaper but still faster than its Pentium4 counterpart.
The Pentium5 (which is to be named the Itainium, which no doubt most of you will know about by now) and Althon2 are aim'd for 4th Quarter this year.

Both of which are native 256Bit Processors, which is a huge improvement over the current 64bit Core with 128Bit Floating Point Extensions.
The information on which is openly available on the AMD and Intel Developer sites.

Both processors are going to start at 2Ghz and are to be the standard upto the 10Ghz era.

lastly i'm pretty sure that part of the DBDN Agreement which didn't settle right with me was the fact you were not allowed to divulge any information on any DarkBasic/Affliate Software developed within, WITHOUT the express say so of the DarkBasic Team.

and unless you didn't know, the patches are subsiquents of the DarkBasic Professional - and therefore included as part of the Beta agreement because they're still beta versions rather than public releases.

id suggest rather than having your head in the clouds about what you read from third parties you grab your information from the companies themselves, and carefully read agreements your about to sign and understand these said implications. people have time and time again noted about how information is released without the teams permission on these "enhancements" ... and it does break the agreement - your just lucky the team doesn't decide to revoke your subscription.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?

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