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Geek Culture / if you ever wondered what us old guys did in the 80`s

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Me!
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 16:32
we had decent computers like the Amiga whupped that PC crud any day of the week this is back when 16 colours on the PC was good and 256 colours was impossibly expensive.

http://www.archive.org/details/amiga_2

is a nice (Amiga) computer documentary I found on archive.org



£350 worth of books later and I still can`t make any sense of C++, BASIC forever
Megaton Cat
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 10th Oct 2005 16:34
Yes, I will go swap my Pentium 4 for an Amiga.


The future is here, and I can't afford it.
MicroMan
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posted: 10th Oct 2005 17:06
I loved my Amiga. Got my first Amiga 1000 in 1984 or 1985. I was so proud of it. My mates tinkered on their C64s, and one of my class mates had a dad that sold PCs, and I could casually ruin the day for that arrogant little s**t whenever he wanted to brag about having a 'real computer'.

Ah, the memories...

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
Raven
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 17:10
God that program took me back. Newtek before Lightwave ^_^
Nice computers, shame about the company.

Van B
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 17:29
I loved the C64, but Atari won my heart with the ST, which was similar to the Amiga but a little different (better), it had only 16 colours out of 512, but it still kept up with the Amiga as best it could because it was about 1mhz faster, and when your talking the difference between 7mhz and 8mhz it's a lot more than you think . Both the ST and the Amiga were lovely machines from the golden era of 16-bit, glad I could be a part of it, it's much more difficult to keep track of the industry these days.


Van-B

Put those fiery biscuits away!
Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 18:47
The Amiga 500 & 1200 were great machines. Many tech heads still believe that a proper Amiga setup with the latest components is in many ways more powerful than any PC could ever be due to the basic arcitecture.

Raven
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 18:51
You can run Quake on an 060 50MHz AGA 1MB Setup 320x240x8 @ 60FPS
That was back in '97, god knows how things have improved since then.

Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 19:39 Edited at: 10th Oct 2005 19:40
EXACTLY - you try doing the same on an equivalent 486pc...

Their processors are simply the best available for fast efficient multi-tasking. I'm not a real expert on them (I haven't owned anything better than a 1200 with RAM & CD & hdd upgrades) but I know people who are, and their rigs are amazing...

[edit] I just watched that program - great show. REally shows what even the simplest of Amigas could do - you try getting an equivalent PC to video edit that quickly

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 19:45 Edited at: 10th Oct 2005 19:46
oh dear, 'The Exaggerator' is plucking frames rate out of thin air again. Besides the obvious min spec issue. 60fps on AGA a1200/060 is impossible due to C2P overhead for starters. Even on the 060 and 040 you can barely translate the 1*1 resolution frame buffer (from 8bit chunky to 8bit planar) inside a frame.. Making running the game at 60fps a rose tinted pipe dream.

http://www.classicgaming.com/amigareviews/quake1.htm

Although surely somebody (out there) has to have built a faster planar 060 version by now.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice!Play Basic (Release V1.088 Out Now)- Play Extreme with Play Basic FX {TBA}
Grog Grueslayer
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Playing: Green Hell
Posted: 10th Oct 2005 20:35 Edited at: 10th Oct 2005 20:36
I loved the Amiga but I never had one (a friend of mine did). From a programmers point of view it looked like it would be easy to program because it had many things that computers should have today. It had 3 plain graphics... basically the same thing as set sprite priority in Darkbasic. You could have one graphic on the front plain and another on the next plain and when you made them move close to each other the back graphic was behind the first.

My Dad and I used to watch Computer Chronicles all the time too.

Forgive me if the above info about Amiga graphics is totaly wrong.
Raven
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 21:12 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 09:09
Quote: "oh dear, 'The Exaggerator' is plucking frames rate out of thin air again. Besides the obvious min spec issue"


Well then you take your issues up with Amiga Format December 1997 when they posted the specs they were using and speeds.
go away and bother someone else for a change.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:44
Interesting, it's never your mistake now is it. Although you do realize that the link above takes you to Amiga format & CU Amiga reviews. Funny how neither makes any such exaggerated assertion.

http://www.classicgaming.com/amigareviews/quake1.htm

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice!Play Basic (Release V1.088 Out Now)- Play Extreme with Play Basic FX {TBA}
MicroMan
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:54
Got my gaming bug on the Amiga. I did an Alien Breed clone in Amos Pro, which I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Dark Basic is based on.

In fact, things have gone downhill with me since then, gamingwize, but I blame the PC. But one day... one day...

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
-----
DBAlex
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 22:58
Amiga is awesome...

Ive been considering tower-fying my 1200 for a while now (With Hard Drive, CD-RW, and OS 3.5 or 3.9 maybe) (Thats what I would add)...

Btw, Im not an old amiga fanboy or anything (im 15!) but there interesting, anyone seen the new AmigaOne? Runs off of PowerPC...

and also everyone should look at: [href]www.amigakit.com[/href]

for old and new amiga stuff


AMD 64 3000 + 512mb RAM + 80GB HD + Radeon 9600se 128mb
Raven
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Posted: 10th Oct 2005 23:15
Quote: "Interesting, it's never your mistake now is it. Although you do realize that the link above takes you to Amiga format & CU Amiga reviews. Funny how neither makes any such exaggerated assertion."


I'll find the magazine and scan the bloody review, the magazine it was; was one hell of alot more technical in thier review than those magazines. They explained what you could expect to run it at a reasonable speed on and what machine flew.

Just pathatic how you always have to add your 2¢... but never actually bother to take part in a topic past that.

TDK
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:17
I had the Amiga and the ST, but always preferred the ST having had the Atari 400/800 then the XL and XE later. Ended up with a Mega ST which had every possible add-on imaginable.

The Mega was used to produce the fanzine GFA User Magazine which I was the editor of. Got to know all the guys at GFA Systemtechnik very well and visited their HQ a number of times.

On one visit there, I found a program in the bin which they had reviewed and decided not to release in the UK. I asked if I could have it and took it home to play with. After a few days of playing, I rang them back and told them it would be a mistake not to release it in the UK, so they released it.

The name of the program? GFA Raytrace - the biggest selling GFA ST title they ever had!

But most of all, I enjoyed the Atari trade shows we used to attend at places like Crystal Palace. Met Les Player (one of the bigwigs from Atari UK) there a few times before he left and took over GFA in the UK.

He eventually moved on and started up Data Becker I think it was.

Those were the days...

TDK_Man

Jeku
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:21
I had an Atari 1040 ST, and have never touched an Amiga. But it's amazing that they have archived every episode of the Computer Chronicles on archive.org. Thanks for the link

Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:21
Stop it, I'm filling up. Esp since my old ST (and most disks) were given to a charity shop (not telling me) by me mam. Can't even wipe my eyes on the rubber keys of speccy (which went with it, and the 128k, and *all* those games). Not as if it started off what I do for a living or anything......

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:27
For the second half of Dazzag's topic feel free to venture around the forums. He's hidden it somewhere and I feel everyone will be pleasently surprised where...

heh sorry couldn't resist

Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:30
I'm still seeking good therapy.

They live in Cyprus now. Where it's warm. B***ards... The computers would have been happy there (well my old laptop is anyways)

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:32
heh, my old Amiga is sat in the cupboard eyeing up my G5.
I miss workbench.

DBAlex
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:35
Workbench rocks.

Forget any Linux, An OS that boots from 4 disks or so and has all those features is amazing! and when was this... like 1990 right? Amazing.

I love the loading sound from teh amiga... ahhhhhhhhh....

haha...


AMD 64 3000 + 512mb RAM + 80GB HD + Radeon 9600se 128mb
Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:35
I did like the Amiga. But hated the big lumpy OS and garish colours. Plus Kick Off 2 was better on the ST (2nd best game ever). I played it to death on both, so I accept no arguments.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:35
Transported from another thread..

Nah, the AGA blitter and OCS blitters are identical. Which was huge issue at the time, apart from them not adding the promised chunky modes to AGA. (_a_ chunky mode would have done it)

OCS blitter has planar line drawing and span base polygon fillers in hardware. The gain from AGA was using blitter when 32/64 bit video prefetch refresh modes were enabled. Which freed up more blitting time. Since the blitter and CPU interleaved cycles. This was slowed down during video refresh (the bulk of the frame). So the more bitplanes + sprites you used the more bitplane DMA took take precedence over both. It was really noticeable on OCS(original chip set).

The way the blitter worked pretty much worked against most programmers of the day. Effectively you outlined the polygon on a temp surface, drawing lines to connect the projected edges then blit filled the surface. The problem was, that you couldn't do this directly to the screen. You had to cache the poly, then blit this off screen area to the bitmap as the polygon. While this could be interleave between other calculations, inevitability if the surface area got too large you ended up sitting in a wait loop, waiting for the blittler to become free again. Aka lots of Dead time

Glenz was prolly the most common vector effect in those early days, as you set the palette and blit fill the object in one hit.

It wasn't until much later on that people looked towards span base fillers. The nice thing about span fillers is that you can fill the entire scene in one blit. (translate polys to visible span list, polt start/end pixels then blit fill entire frame buffer to connnect them) So the fill (and buffer clear) were interleaved against the next frame. The same method was employed in the infamous "Ham Polygon" demo(s). Which actually uses the Ham6 display mode hardware as the filler. Very clever

Etc etc

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice!Play Basic (Release V1.088 Out Now)- Play Extreme with Play Basic FX {TBA}
Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:38
Fair enough, was probably some Amiga fanboy comment back in the day when Elite (best game ever) was supposedly smoother on the ST.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:42
I still remember my first Workbench. 2.04, came on 2 disks.
Used to sit there making it swear just to tick off my dad.

Of course after 5minutes he'd smack me round the back of the head and take charge of the TV again. ^_^
Then came the day we got Elite II, and ya know everyone in this household loved to play it. Awesome awesome game on the Amiga.

PC version doesn't translate as well, atleast I don't think it does.
On the Amiga I always got high enough to do the assasination missions, they were pretty sweet.

You'd sit there waiting for like 2minutes in fast-time waiting for that jumpcloud in your Imperial Courier (my dad was still old-school, loved the Mk III)... bam jump in-front of the bugger with your lovely military drive and shout across the com "Surrender or die!" heh

Always secretly glad they decided to always try and run. heh
Man why can't current games be anything like that?

tpfkat
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:42 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 00:43
i got the c16 when it first came out, then got a speccy and c64
that was real computing...no 3d geforce cards.
64k was a helluva lot of memory.
but the 64 had exploding fist and elite....whaooooh ,the graphics and colour.

i prefered the 64 coz when you were typing normally but on a spectrum you pressed one button and got a whole word.

for all you 64 geeks that made your own resets remeber " sys 7684"

then i got a 2086 pc with a 250 mg hdd and about 4meg....mind blowing.

at least where not using tdk c90's anymore
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 00:45
Quote: " I'll find the magazine and scan the bloody review, the magazine it was; was one hell of alot more technical in thier review than those magazines. They explained what you could expect to run it at a reasonable speed on and what machine flew "


What, can't you read the ones above ?

Quote: "Just pathatic how you always have to add your 2¢... but never actually bother to take part in a topic past that."


Oh look out.. The exaggerators getting cranky..

Considering the decade that I spent developing various tidbits for Amiga machines, I would have thought it's pretty well documented on here and various other forums that I'm still an fan of Amiga at heart.

as if I wasn't an Amiga Fan would I still host some odd and ends on UW today ?.. erm or is too obvious even for you ?

ie. http://underwaredesign.com/products.php?rnd=805146303&id=4
http://underwaredesign.com/prod_detail.php?rnd=16830516&id=21
and we still support IFF pro.
http://underwaredesign.com/prod_detail.php?rnd=1791178915&id=25

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice!Play Basic (Release V1.088 Out Now)- Play Extreme with Play Basic FX {TBA}
empty
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 01:02
Quote: "The Mega was used to produce the fanzine GFA User Magazine which I was the editor of. Got to know all the guys at GFA Systemtechnik very well and visited their HQ a number of times."

Hey, I remember that fanzine.

Quote: "But most of all, I enjoyed the Atari trade shows we used to attend at places like Crystal Palace. Met Les Player (one of the bigwigs from Atari UK) there a few times before he left and took over GFA in the UK.

He eventually moved on and started up Data Becker I think it was."

Right, he set up Data Becker UK. I was remotely involved in a sound library that Data Becker Germany was going to release when I happen to meet him in Duesseldorf (some 5 years ago).


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.088
indi
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 03:06
raven, uw isnt talking smack.
lay off the **** insults please.
everyone is entitled to an opinion,
regardless if the information overlaps with another thought.
just say you dont agree and leave it at that.
Do I really have to tell you that?
you have been here long enough to know


i had an amiga and spent hours on deluxe paint turrican rygar etc.. etc..
i had a 512 with a 512 k cartridge inserted under the chasis.
the day i got two drives for bards tale was RPG heaven.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 03:22
i remember my first comp...it was a $15 thousand dollar paper weight compared to my Ti-84...

“A lot of people approach risk as if it’s the enemy when it’s really fortune’s accomplice” - Sting“
.......S-S-D-D.......
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 04:04
The 80's were also the speccy years. I consider them more important because they were most peoples first computer. The Amiga was the first jaw dropper computer, due maily to Psygnosis. Plus, you could draw with the mouse, which was ideal. I remember drawing the view from outside my window, and never picking up a pencil again. Then making my first animated sprite, then learning C, and most triumphantly finding AMOS. Amos was very similar to DB.

The best part was going into a chip shop, and playing an arcade machine called Dragon Breed. It was my favourite game.....

I've forgotten what happened next???

Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 04:12
Quote: "raven, uw isnt talking smack.
lay off the **** insults please.
everyone is entitled to an opinion,
regardless if the information overlaps with another thought.
just say you dont agree and leave it at that.
Do I really have to tell you that?
you have been here long enough to know"


If it came from someone else in the community other than one of the people who constantly rag on me, then fair enough... but this isn't a simple case of Kevin sitting there correcting someone who was wrong. It was a blantent dig at me from the start.

If your going to barrate me over a mild comment then you should also be telling him the exact same.

starstrike
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 06:04
it was impossible to make quake run at 60fps in 320x240x8...an amiga 4000/060 got like 15 fps at that screen size, but it was kinda playable heh...

however, there was an unofficial ppc version of quake that ran at about 45 fps at a 233mhz a3000 with cybervisionppc.
I still have my amigas, I might boot them up and try again

did you know that you could use an a500 with 1mb of ram to connect to internet and use amirc to chat on irc ? I remember I did that, you just had to stop the workbech from loading, and execute the programs from cli.

It was a very nice computer.. I remember programming in Amos and Blitz basic. Amos for games and blitz for applications.. I even got some of my programs on aminet
Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 10:14
Quote: "i had a 512 with a 512 k cartridge inserted under the chasis"
Yeah, I upgraded my PC the same way. Cost about £120 I believe

Amos? Pah. STOS with compiler and 3D plugin thingy. Oh yes. Damn, I remember taking ages (amongst beer in uni) to write a Dungeon master clone, but became too alcoholic to complete it. Was class. Happy days....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Van B
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 10:47
Damn TDK I had no idea you were to blame for GFA Raytrace! - that was about my first foray into 3D besides POV - it was a damn nice little program. Being able to render a scene in under a day was the lap of luxury back then .

I was always a diehard GFA fan, I still got my SpriteWorks disks with the assembly libraries you could load into GFA, like blitter scrolling, copper bars, border removal, blitter sprites, super-fast tile engine and soundtracker mod support. It was 2 disks of GFA heaven for about £5. I just wish I'd discovered it earlier in the ST's life, all I really did with it is make demo's for my mates soundtracker mods and the odd mini-game. STOS (sorry for this Rich) sucked in comparison. Granted the add-ons for STOS were pretty cool, like you'd get soundchip and mod tune support and STOS did become a nice platform for demo's (much like AMOS did), but really GFA seemed capable of so much more.


Van-B

Put those fiery biscuits away!
Me!
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 11:35 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 11:37
Amos Pro and (dare I say it) Blitz basic where my weapons of choice, Blitz for serious stuff because it had just about every system/gui command ever used built in, and Amos because of the inspiration I got from Daisy software, I used to love Sneetch, the one thing that amuses me is how huge and slow windoze is compared to Workbench, Workbench loaded off a 760k floppy and had all the features that winderz now has, with just a couple of MB more you could beat window$ senseless, and still be faster on a system with a CPU a fraction of the speed, plus TRUE multitasking and Linux like configurability with user scripts etc, awesome!.



£350 worth of books later and I still can`t make any sense of C++, BASIC forever
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 11:54 Edited at: 11th Oct 2005 11:57
I could never get anywhere with the wretched Blitz Basic - it was bugged to hell (I believe my review of it is still on the internet somewhere).

I used to have a C64, probably for a good 7/8 years, then an Amiga (until Commodore went bust - it was during my second year at University). This caused me to get an Acorn A3010, followed several years later by a RiscPC

Both the A3010 and RiscPC were a joy to use (and program) - I first started on the internet with the RiscPC too...

After Acorn stopped making computers, I quickly sold my RiscPC and brought a Gateway PC (closely followed by a Dell PC, at a very cheap price from a neighbour of a relative). After selling both of those, I brought Mesh Desktop Computers (very nice they are too).

After which I have brought approximately 10 Acer laptops (those too are very nice) - currently I use an Aspire 5024WLMI and Ferrari 4000 laptop - sometimes at the same time too!

If you were wondering what happened to the previous laptops, read my blog.

And that is my computing history...

It should be noted that 'Acorn' computers are still being made (and sold) - mainly by Castle Technologies. They are very expensive (and you dont get that much), however, like all previous Acorn computers, they are very powerful - if more games had been availiable, I probably would have brought some new ones (or kept the RiscPC).

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 12:07
The only contact I had with Acorns was at Junior school - they used to be given to schools as a Tesco promotion. I remember they were the first computers I used with a proper graphical interface, the first I used with a mouse, the first I used with paint packages and different fonts in word processing - from what I remember like a smooth, stable version of what windows 1&2 should have been. I remember very little past that of course, but as a upgrade from the BBCBs the schools had previously and the spectrum and c64 I was using at home they seemed so powerful! It was a year later I got my first Amiga and probably another year or two till I had my first proper 'usable' PC - a 486dx2 66mhz with 4mb of ram, 1mb graphics, 16bit soundcard and 2xCD-ROM (!)

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 12:14
I never really liked the editing system nor BASIC on the BBC - but Acorn certainly improved this on the Archimidies. Its a shame they never really caught hold...

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
BatVink
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 12:37
You guys didn't live life on the edge like I did...Dragon 32, with Microsoft Basic 1.0

http://www.museo8bits.com/anuncios/dragon32_anuncio_1.jpg

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 12:41
I only managed to use a Dragon 32 once - at some exhibition somewhere...

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
indi
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 13:15
Quote: "If it came from someone else in the community other than one of the people who constantly rag on me, then fair enough... but this isn't a simple case of Kevin sitting there correcting someone who was wrong. It was a blantent dig at me from the start.

If your going to barrate me over a mild comment then you should also be telling him the exact same.
"


dude if it wasnt you there would be a ban by now, dont you think that arguement goes both ways, stop trying to drag me into a massdebate
geddit? mass-de,nevermind.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself 
Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 11th Oct 2005 13:59
Quote: "dont you think that arguement goes both ways"


yeah, that's kinda my point though.
he calls me a name, and i tell him to stop butting his nose in all the time.

aside from the fact that if you construe those as insults... well i dunno. not even sure how the hell you can. still if your going to sit there and give me bollocking for my "insult" then he should get one too. simple as that really.

it's really getting in the realms of pathic when your picking either of us up on those tbh, but if your going to be then atleast do it equally fgs.

Me!
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 14:42
yeah! Micro$oft wanted to take over the home computer market too, but they didn`t manage that, their BASIC languages (Dragon Basic, Commodore basic etc) failed miserably, then they tried to take over with the MSX standard, I had one of those MSX home computers, think it was a Toshiba, just didn`t do it for me, I went on to Amiga.



£350 worth of books later and I still can`t make any sense of C++, BASIC forever
Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 14:48
I thought the MSX was Sony's home computer.

BatVink
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 14:56
MSX was the standard, not the hardware. It was supposed to be the retail version of "IBM PC Compatible"

Me!
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 15:17
MSX was this dumb idea to make computers that where all identical but appeared physicaly different, so that software houses only had to release one program for all machines, unfortunatley for them users where more technicaly savvy back then and 16 bit was coming to power.



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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Location: Somerset / UK
Posted: 11th Oct 2005 15:22
commodore basic was Microsoft??? I wrote in it for years, starting with the CBM PET and never noticed that?

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Oct 2005 16:56
Yes, it was based on Microsoft BASIC. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_BASIC

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