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Geek Culture / Internet going to "fall apart" next month?

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JoelJ
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 23:17
I was just reading this Slashdot article.

you can read for yourself.
But I have a hard time believing that is true. Slashdot seems to have a lot of rumors posted.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 23:21
So basically other people want a piece of power? Since Icann is not-for-profit in the first place, their is a simple answer...let other established organization in different countries help out with their processes. Problem solved.

You know you want it Straight-Up
Raven
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Posted: 13th Oct 2005 23:33
Quote: "But I have a hard time believing that is true. Slashdot seems to have a lot of rumors posted."


I never read Slashdot or TheInquirer if I want valid news.
Try Reuter's instead.

Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 00:06
Yeah, read that one on the BBC a couple of days ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4327928.stm

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
re faze
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 01:07
i got an uneasy feeling when i read that. what does it mean....!

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
Jeku
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 02:06
Quote: "I never read Slashdot or TheInquirer if I want valid news."


Slashdot just links to other news sites. The content isn't actually on the Slashdot servers :-P Therefore you're getting a wide spread of info from different sites, rather than a single source.

TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 02:12
itd be friggin hilarious if the internet "fell apart"...

“A lot of people approach risk as if it’s the enemy when it’s really fortune’s accomplice” - Sting“
.......S-S-D-D.......
starstrike
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 02:22
we may loose some chineese, north korean and other countries that want to know what their people surf for on the net, but other than that we will not have a difference...
Raven
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 02:29
Quote: "Slashdot just links to other news sites. The content isn't actually on the Slashdot servers :-P Therefore you're getting a wide spread of info from different sites, rather than a single source."


That doesn't make my comments any less valid.
Yahoo! News does the same... do you believe everythingyou read on that?

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 02:33
Quote: "Yahoo! News does the same... do you believe everythingyou read on that?
"


Yes, everything I read on it I fully believe.



You know you want it Straight-Up
JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 02:53
Quote: "
Quote: "Yahoo! News does the same... do you believe everythingyou read on that?"
Yes, everything I read on it I fully believe.
as i never read it at all
"

that was cute Leys...

Quote: " itd be friggin hilarious if the internet "fell apart"..."

yeah it would! I would probably laugh so hard!!!!!1111

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dj blackdragon3710
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:19
Ah, Raven, THATS why some of the stuff you say is bull (just for laughs...laugh at it Raven!!!)

<<<<<Used to be "djblackdragon" with being registered in January, 2003, no matter what it says on the left<<<<<
Raven
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:31
Just read through the BBC article (there' just a "tad" more content on the issue there), the whole thing sounds like a spin on what one comissioner said.

I think seriously the US has to think "does anyone physically own the internet", because not being funny but unless all couteries outlawed the use of digital connection hardware (aka modems/wifi) there is no way they could see to stopping the internet now.

It would be just as impossible to say, stop people taking drugs illegally. Sure it might move underground, but it is so neatly integrated in to our way of life now; if it just stopped, more than simply the movement of large amounts of porn would stop.

Business' rely implicitly on the Internet, to make sure thier companies run smoothly over several locations. Hell can you imagine what it would be like for Microsoft if say next week the internet was just one perminant 404... and all because of the Bush administration?

Companies would force the issue and connect to each other anyways, and you'd know in time this would extend for thier employees, who then share it and it all expands out again.

I dunno, it's stupid for anyone to even remotely believe that we can give up the internet any more than we could stop using air-travel.

Jeku
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:35
Quote: "Yahoo! News does the same... do you believe everythingyou read on that?"


Didn't say I believe everything from anywhere. You're the one that said you read just one news source, not me.

Quote: "I dunno, it's stupid for anyone to even remotely believe that we can give up the internet any more than we could stop using air-travel."


Not exactly a good comparison. The main DNS' are located in a single building in the U.S.

TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:37
Quote: "The main DNS' are located in a single building in the U.S."
i did not know that...hmmm...

“A lot of people approach risk as if it’s the enemy when it’s really fortune’s accomplice” - Sting“
.......S-S-D-D.......
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:39
Quote: "The main DNS' are located in a single building in the U.S."


Bomb It.

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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:41 Edited at: 14th Oct 2005 06:02
Quote: "Bomb It."

use a nuke

“A lot of people approach risk as if it’s the enemy when it’s really fortune’s accomplice” - Sting“
.......S-S-D-D.......
Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 04:56 Edited at: 14th Oct 2005 06:03
Quote: "use a nuke"


....and what exactly IS a nuke?

You know you want it Straight-Up
BaZko
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 05:05
Quote: "....and what exactly IS a nuke?"


A big thing,that makes a big explosion,and makes CNN get tons of money
JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 05:06
haha, nothing better than watching two morons make stupid comments.

my favorite is how people still use cuss words even though they all turn into ****

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BaZko
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 05:09
Quote: "my favorite is how people still use cuss words even though they all turn into ****"


or maybe they just like to type stars........
Raven
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 06:16
Quote: "Didn't say I believe everything from anywhere. You're the one that said you read just one news source, not me."


When did I say that?

Quote: "Not exactly a good comparison. The main DNS' are located in a single building in the U.S."


ÅÆ?!

re faze
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 06:37 Edited at: 14th Oct 2005 06:37
thats the end of globalization as we know it
(greed looks around and suddenly the horizion looks much farther away)

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
transient
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 09:48
This is a real story, and it's huge, considering the impact it could have. Imagine things like mandatory censorship, privacy implications and the like.

Apparently some of the experts weren't allowed to speak because the Chinese and some other countries kept banging the desk.

Basically a lot of things that they want are already in effect. They just don't understand, or want to cause trouble.

I can't imagine anything worse than the UN runninig the internet, even if the US have an agenda like they think.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
BatVink
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 10:09
I don't know if it's brainwashing or being part of the brainwashers, but it's amazing how much history becomes American.

I'm reading Dan Brown's Digital Fortress, and apparently America are now the inventors of the Internet, and they also invented the term "Bug". Sorry, but they belong to CERN, a European organisation, and Lyon's, a UK company, respectively.

What next? Films telling us that the Americans won world war 2? Oh, that's laready happened gazillions of times!

Josh
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 10:13 Edited at: 14th Oct 2005 10:14
I don't think that any one country should be allowed control over the Internet because of the way that we depend on it so much just for daily living.

Quote: "Apparently some of the experts weren't allowed to speak because the Chinese and some other countries kept banging the desk."


Why didn't they just kick them out then, if they can have a mature discussion they should just have been booted out the bl**dy door.

If the Internet does "fall apart" which it won't the world economy would collapse in less than a day. We just couldn't cope without it. The politicians may not know much but they do know that if they muck up something as important as the Internet they are going to have half the world after their blood.

[edit]Doesn't censor "bl**dy".[/edit]

Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 10:19
Quote: "Bomb It"
I heard years ago that the location is secret. For that very reason I assume.

Cheers

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Me!
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 10:43
DUH! main servers?, thats not how the net works, you might at least read up before commenting, it`s a distributed NETWORK with server clusters all over the world connected to one another, you can turn off dozens of servers but due to the way the net works all that will happen is it will slow down as the remaining servers take more load, there is no one main server, and there is no one person or group of persons control it, the Americans might like to think they do, and they get a say for the most part since they founded a group to manage it, but the net would still work if the US sank beneath the sea tommorow, you just couldn`t get the US servers.



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transient
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 11:17
That's what thse guys were trying to say, apparently.

"No one controls the internet" type stuff. It didn't wash with some of the less democratic countries.

Though, if you think about it, taking down a few key internet hubs could cause a lot of problems and economic grief.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 15:14
Quote: "but the net would still work if the US sank beneath the sea tommorow, you just couldn`t get the US servers"
But not .coms I believe. If I remember rightly that secret building stores all .com connection information. And it isn't only the US that use .com.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
IanM
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 15:44
Huh? The DNS system is fully distributed - there are many root servers around the world, and many different .com servers too.

There is no 'one single secret building' for *any* root or TLD name server.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 17:56
Quote: "I'm reading Dan Brown's Digital Fortress, and apparently America are now the inventors of the Internet, and they also invented the term "Bug". Sorry, but they belong to CERN, a European organisation, and Lyon's, a UK company, respectively."

ummm... maybe the uneducated americans say that we invented the internet, but they're morons. You honestly believe that since one person wrote something about americans, all americans are like that?
people are so biased against americans they will search for anything to complain about...

anyway...

I see no problem with the way the internet is running now. We (being everyone) need to just inforce current laws/rules with adult material.
I see this True adds with women in nothing but underwear on MSN adds, and practically anywhere else. that is obviously something parents won't want their kids seeing...
they should be taken down, or, at least, CHANGED

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MiR
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 18:15
Quote: "I see this True adds with women in nothing but underwear on MSN adds, and practically anywhere else. that is obviously something parents won't want their kids seeing..."

Yes. Much better to watch people being sot or something. How can not wearing cloths be natural?!

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re faze
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 18:37
oh so its not like motherbrain from phantasy star II, cause thats kind how i pictured it, the internet being in a huge room/dungeon on a huge server. Damn.

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
Raven
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 19:27
That's what I thought Ian, but wasn't sure if to post that up... so I just asked "what!?"

As I understand how the Internet works, it's almost identical to a local Server System.

<-> DNS Server
--<-> Root Server
----<-> Gateway Server
------<-> Dynamic Client
<-------> Static Client

Each one is a spin off from that design no?
I mean that's roughly how larger companies do thier WANs.
DNS Server is held somewhere which all the Root Servers connect to to speak to each other. These in turn use Gateway Servers which handle a smaller load; allowing systems to connect to the Root Servers which actually share all the information. (often in business you have one per dept)
Then we get down to the user level. These will always act through the Gateway; but depending on thier IP type will determin if access must be taken through the Gateway or can be accessed directly with an IP given by the DNS Server.

iirc the TLS and DNS Servers are actually seperate things; one acts like a Look-Up System, while the other is the direct route to the data.

Kinda like

<-> TLD Server
--<-> DNS Server
----<-> Root Server
------<-> Gateway Server
--------<-> Dynamic Client
--<-------> Static Client

Atleast that's how I understand it all to work.

Jess T
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 20:25 Edited at: 14th Oct 2005 20:31
TLD is just the name that is given to '.com' '.ca' etc...

The DNS is basically a distributed database.

The client makes a request via their browser. The browser sends a signal with something along the lines of 'www.google.com' to one of a list of pre-programmed DNS server IPs ( it logically picks the right server to go to based on the TLD, and their subsequent Domains ). This DNS server uses the string it got as a search for the database.
The database search either returns the IP address of that string, or it can't find it, and passes the string on to some other DNS server that is knows of. The search is then given a 'timeout' which acts to prevent endless loops.
If a relevant IP is found, it is sent backward through the chain of DNS servers until it reaches the client.

Now that the client has the IP address, a direct connection is established between it and the server holding that IP.

Pretty simple, really.

And, given that there are probably millions of DNS servers around the world, then stopping the internet is going to be rediculously rediculous!

...Yep.

[EDIT]
Quote: "Although the DNS is a distributed database it needs a starting point, a list of where to go for the first part of an internet address and start a search for a particular machine. This list of where to start is called the root zone file. It is a list of 248 country code top-level domains (ccTLDs) - such as .uk and .fr - as well as 14 generic top-level domains (gTLDs), which are subject-based such as .com and .net and .org. The list, held on 13 machines across the world, says who runs these domains and where to find them."


Ok, see that? 13 machines across the globe hold the info for where the rest of the DNS servers are located.

Take down these servers and the world ends, right? WRONG!
Obviously we all know where the other servers are already ( people have been accessing them for over 20 years after all! ), so we can just copy+paste those addy's straight into the Browser's starting list.

Why is that Governmental types are so ignorant? Bastards. This is why I refuse to vote.

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Me!
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 20:50
some nice maps on the net

http://www.livingstonmontana.com/access/dan/169mappinginternet.html

the whole thing is rather chaotic to look at



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Raven
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 21:50
Ah, I always thought the TLD<->DNS Database was held on a few main computers, which were then accessed by your DNS Server.

For example in Windows 2003 I have the option to create DNS for any internal machine; which is then linked to a TLD which can be accessed either externally or internalls (infact I can do both... so changing something like http://www.thegamecreators.com to a local only access of www.tgc.com then disable the direct access to the external sources. if i was feeling particularly sadistic )

just kinda assumed the main internet worked very similar

Jeku
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 23:11
Quote: "But not .coms I believe. If I remember rightly that secret building stores all .com connection information. And it isn't only the US that use .com."


Oops, that's what I meant. Although I may be a somewhat idiot, I'm not a complete idiot

Oh well. I don't think any one country should "control" the internet, but I also don't think the U.N. should. What's the solution, then?

re faze
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Posted: 14th Oct 2005 23:55
the un is bull they only stop people that they can handle

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
Raven
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 00:00
Quote: "Oh well. I don't think any one country should "control" the internet, but I also don't think the U.N. should. What's the solution, then?"


If you read the BBC news on the subject, it clearly quotes that the UN has ZERO intention of "controlling" the internet, or setting up a governing system to do so.

They're just trying to keep the peace. Mainly between the USA who believes they control the internet and as such can regulate it how they see fit and the Asian counteries like China, and India.

Ian T
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 01:15 Edited at: 15th Oct 2005 01:17
Quote: "If you read the BBC news on the subject, it clearly quotes that the UN has ZERO intention of "controlling" the internet, or setting up a governing system to do so."


The UN itself doesn't want to contrl it, it just wants to outsource the job to China. Funny how the US is always the big scary villain but there is absolutely no internet censorship in effect right, whereas China is the global leader in that kind of thing.

I wouldn't trust control of the internet in the hands of any major government, but the US does not 'control the internet' as things stand. The current system works and it's free of censorship - the last thing it needs is to be "fixed".

Quote: "I'm reading Dan Brown's Digital Fortress, and apparently America are now the inventors of the Internet, and they also invented the term "Bug". Sorry, but they belong to CERN, a European organisation, and Lyon's, a UK company, respectively."


The US military did 95% of the design behind modern networking and the internet last I checked. I'll take your word on the bug thing, seeing as Dan Brown's fact checking seems to be limited to browsing through The Children's History of the World.

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IanM
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 03:35
The problem isn't about censorship, and *is* about control.

Basically, the US has absolute control over what TLD's can exist, and no-one else has any real say over it. Potentially, they could switch off the .COM TLD today simply by removing it from the root servers.

I can't go into the reasons why I think that the US should share control of the root servers, as that will turn into a political debate, but you should probably take note that the .XXX domain was stopped in its tracks by under 40 letters from a single ...um... group addressed to the US congress ... and that's not good. The internet is supposed to be free from political control.

If ownership can't be shared, then I can see the rest of the world implementing their own root servers in the same way that China already has, resulting in the internet becoming fragmented.

@Raven,
The DNS system is basically arranged in a tree-like structure,

For example,
Root server, knows all TLD servers below it.
Picking .UK, knows all domain servers below it.
Picking .CO.UK, knows all domain servers below it.
Picking .DEMON.CO.UK, knows all servers local to this domain.

When I request a name from within the .DEMON.CO.UK domain, I get the answer directly from my local DNS, being a part of that domain myself.

When I request MSDN.MICROSOFT.COM, the request will run all the way up the tree to a root server, and then move down the .COM branch, then to the .MICROSOFT.COM branch, which will send the requested IP to me ... but this only happens if the address isn't already cached along the way.

It's basically like asking a question, and either getting an answer, or being told 'I don't know, but I know someone who does'.


@IanT,
The US military sponsored University research into packet-based networking so that the network couldn't be destroyed by removing a single link (by, for example, blowing up a city with a nuke).

The packet switching concept was 'invented' early in the 60's. It wasn't until the late 60's that the military actually began paying for research, and researchers from both sides of the atlantic were involved. The first real precursor of the internet didn't appear until 1972, and the first application was ... email.

CERN were *not* the inventors of the internet. They were the inventors of the http protocol, i.e. the Web.

The term 'bug' is not limited to computers. I knew it was used during the war for radar problems, but a quick google shows me that it was also used during the 1800's for general electrical problems too.

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RegenProZ
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 03:37
Quote: "i got an uneasy feeling when i read that. what does it mean....!"


I think it means its like the matrix where we are all gonna die!

Raven
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 03:39
ah, well that makes sense

re faze
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 04:31
so there IS a motherbrain like structure somewhere!

you dont beat the system. the system beats you.
Undercover Steve
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 07:24
I know people who believe bill gates created the internet. He also created the computer. He also invented binary and programming languages. Steve Jobs created Windows. Yep. Simple stupidity for you. Dumb arses.
Raven
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 07:41
I think the positive notes are that these people know OF the mover-and-shakers of the computer/digital industry... even if they don't know what the hell they do.

This said I can hardly blame most people. I honestly don't know what the hell Gates has actually done other than being a bloody ruthless businessman.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 13:12
Quote: "itd be friggin hilarious if the internet "fell apart"..."


I hope not before DBP U6

RegenProZ
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Posted: 15th Oct 2005 13:18
But all in all is this true? Will it really happen?

I see in the paper each week about how close we are from a huge rock hitting earth (muhaha that pwn big time), yet it still hasn't happened for the last 20 years

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