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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 18:18
I've been ill with flu, but i'm not one to squander such a golden workfree opportunity so i've been programming a terrain system...





It's a massive world (about an hour to move from edge to edge at scale running speed) filled with valleys, hills, mountains, roads, villages, towns, forests, spinneys & copses and breathtaking vistas.

The only problem is I havn't thought of a game to go in to it yet, but I thought i'd show you all anyway because it really is very stunning - i've lost hours just wandering around from one village to the next...
Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
IanM
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 19:23
It does look good. Is there any chance of providing an executable demo to us to look at?

One other thing, if you are going to include links to 2 pictures of 470k each, can you put a warning on the subject line? Otherwise you'll upset Ravens modem
darkCorridor
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 19:24
i have DSL

[br]mikey
IanM
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 19:35
Same here, but the majority of people still don't.
Beta1
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:07
gorgeous scenery.

Is it a huge matrix or what?

Am working on a terrain generator myself - althouh I'm in more of a desert/wasteland setting. So far it generates nice rolling hills very easily. Are all the objects/tiles in yours hand positioned or are they automatically generated? Thats one of my next tasks - making the editor automatically generate the matrix tiles appropriate to the terrains altitude/gradients and position some stuff like trees.

rapscaLLion
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 23:13
I don't mind large pics but I have cable lol

It is spectacular looking, I'd say you could do an rpg, probably not a standard rpg but ya... hunting game?
actually, how bout a flying game? I don't mean miles in the sky, how bout some sort of fantasy world were people fly around on dragons or something, close enough to the ground to enjoy the terrain without having to walk

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
TogaMario
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 23:15
Hmmm, how did you set up the matrix handling? Several small matrices? One large one? If they're small, how'd you get the points on the edges to show seamlessly? Thanks! Looks great, almost exactly what I want my game's terrain to look like, but smaller.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 01:53
Is it a huge matrix or what?
how did you set up the matrix handling? Several small matrices? One large one? If they're small, how'd you get the points on the edges to show seamlessly?

It's a 1000x1000 matrix in 'essence' although the display is kept dynamic so only a very limited area is actually ever created at one time. When you move about the matrix content is updated. This process is a little speed intensive, but kept to a frequency of every few seconds along with a frame rate compensation routine and I don't even notice it when I try to spot the moment that it updates.

Are all the objects/tiles in yours hand positioned or are they automatically generated?

Everything is fractally generated, designing sensible rules so that the road network made sense, the lake edges connect properly etc. That's the challenge, anyone can make a big map - the problem is filling it with content - and that's where this system is a winner.

Freescape places well over 100,000 objects onto the map - and for the most part, sensibly. Further colour was added by creating seperate hill and mountain routines to create the altitude map, hills have a shallow peak like an inverted china-bowl and mountains have a pointed peak like snagged tissue so I have recreated these aspects of topology rather than making a single and recurrsive height routine.

The terrain colouring routine is where the roads and lake edges are drawn, this routine also adds more colour to the terrain based on altitude. It was quite complicated to do because I wanted something I could describe as a 'road network' rather than random tarmac strips that didn't interconnect. I achieved the exact result I set out to make, which is rewarding, because it was very challenging to write.

After this I spent an 'age' getting the houses to position themselves next to the roads. For ages I had houses appearing on the road, or way off over yonder. In the end I solved the problem partly by trial and error and partly because sooner or later those maths had to work...

Thanks! Looks great, almost exactly what I want my game's terrain to look like, but smaller.

I don't think this is as small as it may seem. The decision to scale it to allow crossing of the map in one hour at running pace was made based upon content. In the past I have created maps that where physically much larger - the largest took 12 hours to cross and changed graphical style as you did so to represent hotter equatorial regions and cooler temperate hemisphere's. It even had localised weather patterns, but ran at a poultry 6fps.

Changeing the size in this system - doubleing it even, is a matter of changeing 1 of 2 numbers (tile size or tile quantity). The problem then of course, is what to put in the extra space. As with everything a balance must be sought.

Consider for a moment a first person shooter type game, now run across the map - except now you must engage the enemy - this meens checking every tree and every bush in the scope - checking behind you - withdrawing and trying new routes.... Suddenly 1 hour seems like a dream.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 01:53
Oh my dear flame...... that are some...HUGE landscape, good handling of the matrix, my knowledge of it is very little, but from what i learn in the demo....thats awesome. This is the good stuff of a community of a language which is specialized in game, everyone show their resources, you see the ideas of games or games themself that you will never see commercialized...or for a long time. I hope you use that Pneumatic in a very special way, it is waaay cool. Burn in hell!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 03:49
I've decided to go for a modern day military setting and have put in the first vehicle. I'm still to get the wheels turning and spinning but it follows the lay of the land fairly well at the moment - as this screenie shows...

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/freescape3.jpg

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 13:51
Wheels turn, tracks move, turret rotates, barrel elevates....

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/Freescape4.jpg

Now, I think the tracks should give off some dust as the tank moves...

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 17:18
rapscallion: how bout some sort of fantasy world were people fly around on dragons or something?
Pneumaticdryll:Consider for a moment a first person shooter type game, now run across the map - except now you must engage the enemy - this meens checking every tree and every bush in the scope - checking behind you - withdrawing and trying new routes....

Oh men a mix from those two ideas...a first person shooter where you have to kill dragon-riders go will chase you from the air (you are in the ground) and hide behind trees, and move constantly. it would be something like: Dragon-Riders Hunter.
Hehehe, PneumaticDrill, the landscape is NOT Small, is huge! and is a great work =) I don't agree with my friend who said is small

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 18:54
Here's some wow shots that will leave you gasping....

Cross-country: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/Freescape6.jpg

Water-Splash!: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/freescape7.jpg

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:22
Excellent piece of art, there is even splash when the tank is on the water! I would love to have that landscape in my hands

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:27
I need help now because I don't have enough models, I can code, but i'm no modeller - is anyone out there willing to make vehicles along the lines of Apache AH-64, T-80, Bradley, M113, BT-80 etc. ? Ideally in a similar style to those in Dark Matter so I can keep using them.

This could really be something with the right models.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 21:14
I have produced a demonstration .exe of the game engine. The download is 10.8mb and can be grabbed here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/fs11demo.exe

This is an alpha version. Nothing is final. Bugs probably exist. There is no game per-se, you are free to drive about the terrain to your hearts content.

W - Accelerate
S - Brake
A/D - Turn

NUMPAD 4/6 - Turret Left/Right
NUMPAD 8/2 - Barrel Elevation
NUMPAD 5 - Centre Turret / Barrel

UPKEY - Pan camera away
DOWNKEY - Restore camera distance
LEFTKEY/RIGHTKEY - Pan camera around vehicle

Once running please allow a few seconds for the terrain to 'normalise' during which time the framerate may appear jerky.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
WarWolf
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 00:31
Weeeeee...Mind giving out the code?

I didn't steal it!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 00:59
This was never intended to be an open source project so that isn't something I had even considered doing WarWolf.

It has never been my intention to write engines for other people to make games of, I like to complete my own games as can be evidenced from the fact that on my site we (my brother and I) actually have numerous finished projects to download...!

The door is not closed however, I am currently looking for a 3d modeller to work with on the project so if you fall in to the description below then there is a very real chance you can become a part of the project.

To apply you must be:

A) able to finish what you start;
B) willing to work with an experienced team who finish their projects;
C) able to finish what you start;
D) able to work to a high standard.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
WarWolf
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 16:11
3d modelers eeeeh? does that include animating the models?

I didn't steal it!
the_winch
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 16:54
When I run fs11combat.exe I get an error
Runtime error 8003 - Could not find path at line 6

Marvey
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 23:30
same here

QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 00:09
I get an error: close/debug/details kind of error when i run the game, and also, when I download it, it automatically extracts to a temp folder without asking me, that annoyed me. But I cant play it...

Darken the skies, we are god
the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 01:57
rename the file from .exe to .zip and your normal zip handeling software will open it and you can extract it where you want

QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 02:06
that obviously doesnt work, its not a zipped file.

Darken the skies, we are god
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 02:06
I have to put my hands in the air, I made a mistake.

Part of the source code was copy/pasted from some stuff I did when I first got DBPro and I didn't understand the project manager at all when I first loaded DBPro up, so I put in a "Cd C:\DbPro\Projects\fs11combat" command...

The problem now is I cannot distribute the version I have on my HD because it's in an interim stage so uploading a fixed archive would not be easy.

That said ALL of the media is enclosed in the attached .exe so aslong as the path exists to satisfy the CD command then the exe will run without any other problems (at least - in theory...).

I'm sorry for the oversight. Like I said, it's an alpha version and was not originally intended for release.

The folder path you need to make is:

C:\DbPro\Projects\fs11combat

No files need to be there, aslong as it exists then the program will run.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 03:37
Warwolf no I dont need models animated for me, infact I mostly end up redoing animations anyway - especially dark matter models. Model Animators tend to have something specific in mind, and i'm yet do desover what that specific thing is because it rarely aligns with what I want to use a model for...

I'm rethinking what i'm going to do with this as I honestly don't expect to find a modeller i'm looking at what resources I already have. Anyway I loose nothing with a bit of umming and r'ing at this stage, so I may aswell do it now and be happy that I can complete the project before I get trapped down a specific route.

I'd like to do an RPG but it's not that realistic. I see so many RPG's in DB started and never have I seen one finished - it's not DB's fault, but the nature of the genre in that they are a lot of work - particularly in that they need lots of models and often textures and i'm certainly not the person best equipped to buck that particular trend.

I like to finish what I start, so it's just a matter of finding an idea that is realistically achieveable with the resources I have.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 03:41
QuothTheRaven, The extractor should also remove the file from the temp directory when finished.

The point is that because the program is just one .exe it does not need to 'extract' in the traditional method. Using winzip self-extractor to expand, launch and then delete the file so only 1 compressed copy needed to be kept on the PC seemed prefferable to keeping a downloaded archive and also an extracted exe, plus an accidentally made shortcut and no doubt a duplicate after time.... well you know the score.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Beta1
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 12:05
As I said before, looks gorgeous.

A couple more questions. You have plenty of trees and buildings dottes around the landscape. When I have tried this I hit major slowdown at around 50 "scenery" objects, (+ a few premade bullets and other objects). This takes me from over 250 fps at 50 objects to under 10fps at 150. Not to mention the age it takes to create all those objects. So have you managed to find a way around the dreaded "large numbers of objects slows DBP to a crawl" problem or are you running with a patch 4 beta ?

Beta1
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 12:06
I should add I am hiding all models that are out of few and replacing distant objects with low poly versions...

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 13:47
Beta1

There are 100000 trees, 2500 bushes, 1750 long grasses and 1000 buildings at the moment, although I want to increase the numbers of bushes grasses and buildings.

To display them, I have 300 tree objects, 50 bush objects, 100 grass objects and 20 building objects.

The cunning trick that enables this to run without too much slowdown (although it isn't 50fps by any stretch of the imagination) is to re-use every object I display. I don't have low poly versions of my scenery, everything is just as-is, but it gets re-used.

Object no.1 is used to show tree 1, tree 101, tree 201, tree 301.... At some distances object no 101 will show tree 1, and sometimes object no 201 will show tree 1...

The magic word is 'Dynamicism'. Which is a flash way of saying I use, re-use, and re-use, and re-use and don't ever throw anything away....

On my AMD 2Ghz with just a GeForce 2 it runs at 15fps fairly consistently, with a good graphics card the frame rate should hit about 25 or so I guess.

I do get a little slowdown on ocassion, but with a good framerate compensator routine it barely shows.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Beta1
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 14:49
Though that must be the trick. I use a similar trick with bullets/missiles etc. Never thought of using it on the scenery though. I'll have to see if I can make that work, it should fix my slowdown very nicely.

Thanks!

Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 14:52
PneumaticDryll - email me (off the forum - [email protected]), I'd like you to test your code with Patch4.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 00:21
I've seen some lousy tricks to get hands on my source code before, but that's just below the belt Rich! lol

Only kidding, email sent

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
PiratSS
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 01:00
kool, expt i couldn't get the demo working, the screens look nice!


Toughest line of codecol$=asc(left(Pcol$)),1+str$(rev)+chr(80)+left(right(mid(name$),1),1)
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 02:07
aye - the problem with alpha versions is - well if they wheren't alpha versions they'd be fine and tested and stuff... I think there may be more problems with that demo than I realised because it seems i'm having trouble including 2D media again, i'm sure there's a bug in DBPro's exe compilation...

Seems 'loaded object' textures add fine but when I include a standard 2D bitmap for a primitive texture, matrix texture etc. then the file size of the exe goes up but DBPro displays an all-black image.

Anyway i've made a few enhancements since the last release, 'some' of the initial jerkyness is now gone, and an extra 13% more speed has been scrounged out of the object culling routines, i'm going to use that speed to increase the number of dead objects that the system can process - in laymans terms, i'm going to add more pretty stuff

Rich wants to try it out on patch 4 and I want the method of trying it out to involve sending me the beta because that meens i'll have a working 'clone object' command so I get my new towns looking the way I want them too (rather than having the same building combinations in every town).

At that stage i'll release another alpha version and if you are really lucky I might even test it on a fresh system first!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
spooky
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 12:50
Can't get it to run.

Get 'freescape Loading' and a loading piccy and then a few seconds later:

fs11combat.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close, blah, blah, blah..

Looks good though!

Gronda, Gronda
n3t3r453r
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 15:52
Sorry, but I think that this screenshot only proves that DarkBASIC Pro isn't good for creating landscape\terrain games.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 18:01
My Russian isn't good enough to fully understand your site Net Eraser, but from what I can see you too have experimented with this concept in your Magic World tool?

I too have just received patch 4 beta and hope to have a new demo out today, perhaps when you see it live with your own eyes you might decide that you like it

Certainly Freescape is not as good as some commercial games, but it is more than a match to many genre's and hopefully something at least semi-commercial will come out of this project - lord knows programming beats moving cages about for a living!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 18:43
Want to see something really sad? I just found this on my fileserver.... http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/WW3D.exe. It looks like version 1 or 2 of freescape and was written not long after I got Dark Basic Classic! It's about 1mb in size, and very dire indeed.

Early beginnings....

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Odyssey
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:47
The screenshots totaly ROCK.

To bad I not much help when it comes to 3D.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 21:46
i don't understand why either of you use Matrix, they're notriously slow and very constricting in thier access.

you can make your own patch matrix routine with the mesh memblock - and the way that Pro handles them makes it bloody fast, could even put in a Quadratic Equasion to Caluclate LOD faces based on distance ...
(which is no doubt what they're trying to do with the Terrain's but its not quite there lol)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Beta1
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 14:40
Because its easy - thats why.

My matrix runs bloody fast anyway, its only when I add the scenery it all ground to a halt.

I now have a basic scenery system working using the same objects repositioned. Am now working on a node based system to speed up the selection of which scenery objects to place. Probably ending up with a system similar to PneumaticDryll but slightly less sophisiticated

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