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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Open-Source Game made by the community in association with DarkBasic

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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 00:54
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First, this is just a proposement, an idea. I am new to the community, so i wont stole any credit, the great community member that gave us this idea is no other than Electron (the good advicer with the picture of Rayden).
Electro proposed to make a game where all community could be part of the staff, even programmers of the community could help because the game would be open source. But writers or artists of the community can send the ir work to. The leader would be Darkbasic Software, they have more experience than anyone and the game could be a sucess
Many have already like this idea(D_D, Bob Vila, myself..( we need the opinion of Darkbasic administrators too, and of course of more members of the community. Reply here with comments AND your Approvement or Negation of the idea.
Lets start BURNING our ideas people!
"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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andrew11
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 01:29
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I think it's great idea.

With the help of many people we could make a great game. However, so many people have many different ideas, so I doubt that we could agree on stuff (i.e. what type of game, characters, etc.) Also, there may be version differences such as DB pro and clasic. Even though this is in the DB pro section, it is unfair for other users to not be able to participate.

I personally think that an RPG would be the best solution. Each contributer could have his/her own character modelled by themself (if they are able to do so). Maybe we could make it a net game so many users could play at once.

"All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors."
-Anon.
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 01:39
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Andrew, good to know you think is a great idea, thanks to Electron again for it, i hope you burn in hell
But...in my opinion Andrew, and staff have rules and they ask their members so thing to be in. Even with this, we are not thinking in asking anything, any contribution from community would be good, but i think that limitations like: Members that only have DB pro will be neccesary. Not everything is fair, and i think if we are going to make a game we have to take it serious in a way too, is sad for people who cant participate because they have a different version, but is a product we are working on we cant deal with it.
Second, a Net game would be awesome! This way everyone can implemente the ideas, and about the people having different Ideas andrew, this is inevitable in any staff, thats what we need a team of writers (i am a writer myself) who works together to agree in characters personality and physical look. Also, everyone can put their ideas and we make polls to see if people like them, or if there is one better, etc. Forum will be very usable to put ideas too.
Each contributer cant model its own character, it would be huge ( can you imagine in offline rpg a character for each user of Dbpro, supposing everyone will participate? maybe in a online one...maybe)
But well, i agree with you in the Net game or rpg =)

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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andrew11
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:15
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Your right about the size if everyone modelled thier own character, but if it used a system where the user can select which character they want from a folder and are able to move user-made characters into the character folder. If they were playing online, the game could somehow send character info to other players for thier game to position the player. The only files that are needed are the ones being used. Writers could make characters for people to download if they dont want to make one.

P.S. "i hope you burn in hell"???? What does that mean? Do you worship satan or something? I respect your opinion and religious beliefs, but it may be offensive to some people and it is best if religion is not mentioned at all.

"All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors."
-Anon.
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Electron
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:27
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aahhh! nothing like a good Brain Storming session

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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Electron
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:35
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BTW - DarkBASIC Software Ltd have in NO WAY agreed to participate, so the 'in association' bit is abit extreme, although I would like them to take an interest in the project as it good be good for the language to be part of the open source movement, LOL

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:37
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My vote would definatly be for something of the online/MMORPG nature. One small problem. What about security? since its open source, anyone would be able to make a "cheater" client. The only true way to make something that is completely cheater proof would be to have the server do all the calculations and maintain all the settings. This might be very difficult to do as an open source game.

I could be wrong of course. Perhaps it would be best to start with a really good single player game and then build in the multiplayer capabilities last. Though, I would be impressed to see a massively multiplayer game that would run peer to peer like kazaa or something.. the world expands as people join.. interesting concept..

Pyro.. are you going to lead the project?
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:38
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I think the in association is strictly meaning, DarkBasic only.. not dark basic ltd. I guess it should be Open-Source Project by the Dark Basic Community or something.. No matter, sounds fine..
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Electron
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 03:01
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Yeah, I know, but some people may get the 'wrong end of the stick' so to speak

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 04:27
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Andrew, i am very sorry if someone can feel hurted by my expressions, first i dont beleave in Satan directly, i beleave in god and in beleave in evil (while i dont like it). if someone respects my religious beleaf in for example, satan (again i dont beleave in him) there shouldn't be any problem, but if you say that someone can feel hurted i will leave it. I am Pyro, wizard obsessed with fire(pyro...not me), but understanding what you mean, i will stop it because this is not a roleplaying board in the first place. From now i will just say "Keep burning!" which obviously doesn't seem offensive and i can go on playing, remember is my way of saying cool or thanks I feel the necessity
Anyway, Electron, the making of an open-source game haven't begun, and we aren't associated with DarkBasic LTD. This is for attracting people, in the first post on this thread it explains is a proposement, and idea. And if people read the thread, they should see your post where you explain that this haven't happened too. Reading posts is what people should do, if they understand bad the topic we will clear them off for them.
Bob Vila, i tottaly agree with you in the security topic of the mmrpg, thats what i am thinking in a HUGE list of the community members who are going to colaborate, in this way we can be sure how people will act because to enter to the "Semi-Open Source" developing they will have to fill certain aplication and gain the leaders trust, while this is not a 100% secure method, it is way more secure than a tottaly open source game, this is IF we make it an mmrpg (which i would prefer), if we make it an rpg, well if people decide to use cheats or not is their problem.
I do not think i have the power to decide if i am the leader or not, thats something we will have to figure out later

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 04:40
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This is my list of ideas and plans for the moments, i would like to know with which ideas do you agree or support. Of course, more sections will be added in the "Game-project Plan" when more ideas are received:
--------------
Ideas for a game-project where community can participate in the devolpment:

Genre:
Make it a RPG (This means a Roleplaying Game which is offline)
Make it an MMORPG (This stands for Massively Multiplayer Online rpg)

Way that Community help in the devolpment:
Open-Source (This means that every member of the community can find the code of the game, and add some code or modify other to improve the game and then send it to the leaders or staff to approve the code) *High Risk*
Semi-Open Source (This will require lot of work, because it is about accepting and interacting with an huge amount of members of the community, to know if we can trust on them and then accept them in the development where they can receive or send the code)

Association with DarkBasic Pro LTD:
Haven't been approved for the moments

Progress of the game:
0%
----------------------------------------
Pretty small, huh? well give us more ideas then! Come on, this is one of the ways we can all work together!
Keep burning!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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andrew11
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 06:14
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Pyro

I understand now. I'm sorry. I hope I didn't offend you or anything.

I had a few ideas:

For the character select, I thought that it might be good if the player can select body parts (skin, head, body, etc.), attributes (better at defense, attack, etc.) and clothes (could be changed using different textures througout the game).

I was thinking about having a one-on-one battle engine.

As for security:

a) one main file at a server.

b) or, maybe as a new or existing player enters, thier version is checked against a text file of the current most popular version. If differences are found, the source is sent to the user to be checked and if it is good, then the new version can be downloaded by the users.

Just Ideas. Now all we need is more people to respond.

"All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors."
-Anon.
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 06:36
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Can you explain Andrew what you mean witha one-on one battle engine?
I agree with you in all what you are proposing, except the textures through the game. I will add a new idea to the game-project Plan. In the character progress during the game, we have to use textures for the clothes but layers should be very important. Can we use layers with DBpro? I have seem rpgs online (like Neverwinter, which is offline too) which doesnt support layer, and community are having big problems in making cloaks, or robes over armor and this type of stuff.
Please! remember to reply if you agree with some ideas, or if you have new ones, after we make the plan we can start working. Remember to talk about how the team will work too!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 06:39
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By the way andrew, no worries about what i said, i guess it was a little to agressive for some, just keep burning and sorry!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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EdzUp
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 07:54
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Personally I would start small and work from there, the hardest thing for any project of this scale would be coordinating the different areas of the game and bringing them together.

If DB Ltd are behind this maybe a seperate code forum for the project once its decided what it will be so there can be a required code and submitted code area, this will stop coders re-coding stuff thats already been done.

-EdzUp
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 14:55
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I don't mind promoting this if something comes of it, but we (DBS) cannot actively project manage it. Too much hard work and not enough time, sorry!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 16:21
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I see, and understand what you mean Rich, is a pity that Dark Basic pro LTD can't participate with us, but is understandable since you are working in DarkBasic Pro Software. We don't want you to stop working on patches or improvement, or just new products for us, so please go on and thank you.
However, you also said mentioned the word "promoting". In my opinion, it would be good if DarkBasic Pro LTD promote the software its community is working on, Publisher maybe? Distribuitor? or just like the word...promoter? What do you think Rich?

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 16:30
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Ok This is the "Game-Project Plan" so far, remember this is a set of ideas related for the project, we will be eliminating some of them till we decide the one we wanna stay with, or just will mix others.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ideas for a game-project where community can participate in the devolpment:

Genre:
-Make it a RPG (This means a Roleplaying Game which is offline)
-Make it an MMORPG (This stands for Massively Multiplayer Online rpg)

Way that Community help in the devolpment:
-Open-Source (This means that every member of the community can find the code of the game, and add some code or modify other to improve the game and then send it to the leaders or staff to approve the code) *High Risk*
-Semi-Open Source (This will require lot of work, because it is about accepting and interacting with an huge amount of members of the community, to know if we can trust on them and then accept them in the development where they can receive or send the code)

Security Plans:
- One Main file at a Server
- When a new or existing player enters, thier version is checked against a text file of the current most popular version. If differences are found, the source is sent to the user to be checked and if it is good, then the new version can be downloaded by the users.

Character creation:
- Player is able to select body parts for its characters (different skin, heads, bodies, etc)
- Player is able to be better in certain attributtes (defense, attack,etc)
- Having a one-on-one battle engine

Character:
- clothes (could be changed using different textures througout the game).
- Clothes should use layers. (which means some clothes can be over others, or over the characters, like objects that are put over others)


Game Development:
- A seperate code forum for the project once its decided what it will be so there can be a required code and submitted code area, this will stop coders re-coding stuff thats already been done
- A forum for the team in darkbasicpro.com (like the previous suggestion) but also a website for the project with its own forum with lots of boards so work can be categorized.

Association with DarkBasic Pro LTD:
-Rejected- Not possible because of different works in hands of DarkBasic Pro LTD.
- Game beig promoted by DarkBasic Pro LTD? Possible...

Progress of the game:
-0%
-----------------------------------------------------------

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 18:00
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"When a new or existing player enters, thier version is checked"

Any cheater client can be made to work with whatever security you try and add in. A possible solution could involve the executable doing a checksum of itself and sending that off to the server - but even then that can be fiddled.

Also, DBP only supports 500 odd players so a custom TPC/UDT library (already available fortunately) would have to be used.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:05
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Excellent suggestions! And the tcp/udt libray is more than a suggestion, is a NEED, thanks for pointing out.
Anyway, Darth, are you really sure that any method of security on an online rpg will be fiddled? i Can't be that sure, most of the MMRPG i have play have incredible security methods, and when someone cheats they can detect how they did this so they can fix the problem and ban the player. it would be good if we can detect cheating, of course we need a beta-testhing phase (all this in case of making it an online rpg) for testing security problems. Is easier to cheat on an offline rpg, but i think we can find a way to detect everything in a mmrpg.
Lets not say is impossible to solve those problems!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:36
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Pyro - we do not publish games (and never will I'm afraid AFAIK), by promote I mean publicise the development of it in the newsletters, offer file hosting, maybe even create a dedicated board for it here if it takes off - that kind of support. We'll playtest it too

But something will have to be visible first (concept art, test code, beta version, etc) - I think that's fair enough.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:41
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All right, i want to clear out some things. We have two categories or 2 issues that we need to inmeadiatly solve to begin the development of the project.
No, there is no rush, is just about being efficient and not being SLOW =).
How we will clear those issues? There is no better way than with the Poll method.
Is simple, i will put the link to the polls where you can vote for your favorite options, which are:

What Genre do you want the "Darkbasic Pro community's game" to be?
- An Rpg (stands for Roleplaying game)
- An MMORPG (Stands for Massively Multiplayer online Roleplayinh game)

And the second poll would be:
How will the source be available for community?
-Open-Source (This means that every member of the community can find the code of the game, and add some code or modify other to improve the game and then send it to the leaders or staff to approve the code) *High Risk*
-Semi-Open Source (This will require lot of work, because it is about accepting and interacting with an huge amount of members of the community, to know if we can trust on them and then accept them in the development where they can receive or send the code)

When enough votes are colected in a poll(it is very important you all try to vote, so we can have an accurate result) we will close it and the option with more votes is the one we will stay with! Is that simple and we all can participate together! (Just with a vote, you are helping in the development )
Of course, this is the easy part, then is when we need the real help from the community (code, graphics, music, etc)...but thats something we will do later
Keep burning!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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andrew11
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:43
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I wasn't thinking about checking the game, I was thinging about checking the actual .exe file. Any difference, no matter how small would tell other games that it is a different file. It dosen't matter what the difference is. The file would then have to be reviewed by a human.

Also, would this be open source to anyone who downloads it or can only DB pro users see the source? For everyone else that wants to play should have only an application that can be downloaded. It would have to be free because there's no way to pay every contributer.

"All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors."
-Anon.
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:48
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More than fair Rich, i understand if you cannot publish, and frankly is not of my concern knowing why, but again...thats not what DarkBasic ltd. Is about, is about making their excellent software that help us do games, graphics...that help us create =) So you keep the good work. I know what you meant with promoting, and that would be more than nice! Of course it is fair enough to ask for some piece of the work first, you wont know if the community will take this serious without a piece of work that prove it =). For now, i will ask the community to work together to organize the ideas, and then start working in the first piece of job which with luck will help us to get your promotion (hosting would be very nice, but i think that when we show DarkBasic this the more important will be a board in the forum first).
Anyway, what in my opinion DarkBasic should have all the credits of this, i mean, it will be recognized like our main promoter, the language of our creation, and the creator of this community =).
And we will add each and one member of the community who colaborates in the game (if we miss someone, we will just thanks the whole community) This will be the way to show the appreciation to everyone around DarkBasic.
Again, the opinion of everyone is needed and of course, to know if you agree with me or no.

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 19:59
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Oh no! Theres no doubt on that one Andrew 11! There will be an application for normal users, they wont be able to obtain the code (well they may find a one, but not official).
The DBPro users will be the one who will obtains the source, and obviously the application too (duh).
Thats why is important to keep in touch around the forum and the link where our polls are going to be (who will also be the home of the open/semi-open source game in the alpha stage), so you can know where our code can be found and how and of course colaborate in tyhe mean time.
I tottaly agree with you Andre in cheking the exe file, the work will hard to be reviewed human, but making a game is about working hard, and no detail can escape for us. i vote for that.
if this project is going to be made by the community (which is pretty big) We are going to make it free, community must be clear that they are going to obtain just credit and satisfaction, but in no way money. Besides, this will be a way to get more experience and know people. Of course, the bests one will stay till' the online game is finally released, and maybe there will be an STAFF at the end...now thats another story, no need to rush.

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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andrew11
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 20:07
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Well then who's going to make the home page?

Are you going to pyro?

"All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors."
-Anon.
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Pyro
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 20:18
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Yes, i haven't pass the link because i am working on that.
I am going to make the official, but thats something i want to be more dedicated and patient, for the moments (for the alpha stage as i pointed out) we are going to work in a Yahoo Group, is perfect for our needs, it haves the polls we need, pictures, discussions, newsletter, and many more. Is very simple, and as we dont need a good design (because any normal gamer cant download the game for the moment, or because we are not giving information about the game, just working on the very basics of it)it will suit us very good.
In fact it is done by now :

Group name: darkbasicommunity
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/darkbasicommunity
Group email: [email protected]

Come on and join! This group is for the entire darkbasic community, and only on this forums you will able to find the link While we can discuss in the group, i will like if we keep use the DarkBasic pro forums discussions more than anything, most of the community will be around this most of the time, and when we release our first piece of work we may obtain a board.
The polls are about to be created, i will let you know when they are done, but start registering!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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andrew11
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 22:46
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I just joined.

Nevr signed on to Yahoo before. They have more security than Fort Knox.

Is there any way for a member to be a moderator? Can I be one?

"All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors."
-Anon.
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Pyro
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 01:43
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Leaders will be chosen soon Andrew, is not relevant for now and i do not have the power to decide that, the community does.
Now we just gotta trust the community will start voting on the Group to keep progressing

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Electron
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 11:59
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oh dear, oh dear... everyone has gone bonkers

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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Electron
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 12:10
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When I first posted the idea I didn't expect people would actually be interested, LOL, but I think certain people are 'running before they can walk' - no offence.

only joking people seriously though, you can't expect alot from this project at first, as many people do have a life outside of DB (It may not seem like it, *snigger*). An RPG would be the most viable option like Warhammer perhaps? each person can create their own world and army to command etc... I know someone who may want to host the game IF/WHEN it becomes multiplayer, but for now, we should concentrate on the concept, no coding for awhile, just the concept.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Electron
--------

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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IanM
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 12:40
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Please take this as CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, and please don't take it personally.

To me, this is starting to seem less and less like an open source community project, and more like the standard 'let's build an RPG' team request that we get all the time.

You also label open source as high risk, and that just is not true - It has exactly the same risks as your 'semi-open' suggestion.


IMO, you should stick to keeping this project totally open. The only rules that should be adhered to as far as accepting code is concerned are these:

.. The new code must compile with the existing code - breaking the build is NOT acceptable at any time
.. The new code must adhere to the defined architecture/style/naming conventions
.. The new code must move the project towards it's documented target

Please note, I have not said anything about having to know who the source has come from. Anyone may have something to contribute, even if it is a one line bug-fix, or adding a comment for clarification.

Any code that doesn't fit these criteria should be bounced back to the coder unchanged. It's up to them to fix it.

This leaves a job at the centre for one or more people to vet/test code submissions and to keep the source together (with source control), and to guide (not control) the direction of development. It is up to people to choose what they want to work on (they ARE contributing their time for free after all) and the most you should do to steer them is to provide a 'to do' list.

A good example of this is the BCX yahoo community, which is steered by a guy called Kevin Diggins. He has assembled a core team of 3 or 4 others, but anyone can modify the source and pass it back for inclusion into the base source code.


From my own personal point of view, I am not willing to submit code to a project that I do not believe is completely open, although I will always answer questions if I am able to.

Gosh, I haven't posted so much in one place for a long time
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Pyro
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 19:27
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Electron, why not? Maybe if it was a project made by a small group, but this all the community will participate! Everyone!. And beleave me, there are many persons in this community who have the experience to make this a great project. I am sure that many graphics artist would like to help, programmers...(well obvious there are many, most of them are), writers i am sure i can find some, and i am one myself.
So this is not to worry, the goal is to be optimist, maybe i am too idealist but is an OPen project, we need to have expectations, and with an open project of the community theres no need to start from small.
At least thats my opinion.I take all the suggestion as constructive critism, like my friend IanM suggested.
But one thing is that, and another standing disturbing comments. What i mean my Electron friend is that because we (and i mean the community) or lets say i, am very interested on doing this project with all our Darkbasic Pro pals, doesn't mean i dont have a side life. I have a brother Marriage going on, and have lot of care to give to my father since he have been sick a years ago, and as many persons in here i have friends and i like to go out with them, but this won't stop me of having dreams and wanting to progress with great projects, so i just can't agree with you in this one. I do agree we should concentrate in the concept, as i commented that in one of the posts at this threads, first the organization and then we start progressing. Thats why so neccesary that you interact with the polls. Your warhammer suggestion is very good, and i just added it to the project plan, thanks for all Electron.

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 19:48
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As for IanM, your comments are in my opinion the most precises and...lets say matures in a way.
Do not worry, that i know how to appreciate critisism and it wont be wise not appreciating yours.
When i said that an open source project had a high risk i said it for something.
Is not the same risk that a semi-open source project.
When you do not know who is the people that can obtain a source of a game, you can expect any type of security breakers, cheats, and more...is not easy to deal with 1.000.000 people that can download your code. However, this can be more productive since more suggestions will be received.
I also said that a Semi-Open source would be harder to work with. But beleaves my, i have work with it and is way more safe. Well not me, me and my team. When you can know the people you work with there will always be a lower range of risk, we could establish certain rules to going into the semi-open project that could even be illegaly to broke. Like for example, not doing any third-party software for this source. This is what i mean, and it would require weeks of more work, but the community could still give his ideas and sent work, that can be approved, and of course obtaining the source wouldn't be so hard like in a normal game staff.
Yes, it maybe extremely tiring (to a point that it become ridiculous) to make a semi-open project, but i am pretty sure is more safe. However, i am also sure that there have to be security ways in the open source to avoid this, thats what i still need your help if the game is going to be open source. In any way, i am sure that the reasons why you think the game should be open source, will help the community to decide. They have been added to the game-project list, and i will post it soon. It is important you all vote in the polls, thanks

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2003 20:06
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Now my friends i bring you "Game-Project: Ideas List" Ver:0.3
This version, i have added some new elements from of course colaborators, in the source availability section, fixed an error where a battle engine suggestion was in the character creation section, instead i created a new section named Game, where suggestions about the game itself are added. Also a new element for game development section and respecting any type of association with DarkBasic Pro LTD the colaborators hall of fame have a new member, and also there is a section where suggestions for the game in case it is online are added.
Last, and maybe the most important is the "Contundant Opinions and ideas" section, where ideas that can change your way of thinking in certain aspects of the project, or even make you work in a different way with your contribution to the open-source project. Well, here is the "Game-Project: Ideas List 0.3"
-----------------------------------------------------
Ideas for a game-project where community can participate in the devolpment:

Genre (Currently a poll running at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/darkbasicommunity to decide this):
-Make it a RPG (This means a Roleplaying Game which is offline)
-Make it an MMORPG (This stands for Massively Multiplayer Online rpg)

Way that Community help in the devolpment
Source Availability(Currently a poll running at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/darkbasicommunity to decide this):
-Open-Source (This means that every member of the community can find the code of the game, and add some code or modify other to improve the game and then send it to the leaders or staff to approve the code) *High Risk*
-Semi-Open Source (This will require lot of work, because it is about accepting and interacting with an huge amount of members of the community, to know if we can trust on them and then accept them in the development where they can receive or send the code)
- Respecting Open-Source availability there are som rules colaborators should follow:
.. The new code must compile with the existing code - breaking the build is NOT acceptable at any time
.. The new code must adhere to the defined architecture/style/naming conventions
.. The new code must move the project towards it's documented target

Security Plans:
- One Main file at a Server
- When a new or existing player enters, thier version is checked against a text file of the current most popular version. If differences are found, the source is sent to the user to be checked and if it is good, then the new version can be downloaded by the users.
- Innvolve the executable doing a checksum of itself and sending that off to the server (in a way to avoid cheating)
- Adding a way to detect cheating on the game, so we can then fix the bugs which are helping the cheaters and finally ban those players.
- checking the actual .exe file. Any difference, no matter how small would tell other games that it is a different file. It dosen't matter what the difference is. The file would then have to be reviewed by a human

Character creation:
- Player is able to select body parts for its characters (different skin, heads, bodies, etc)
- Player is able to be better in certain attributtes (defense, attack,etc)


Character:
- clothes (could be changed using different textures througout the game).
- Clothes should use layers. (which means some clothes can be over others, or over the characters, like objects that are put over others)

Game:
- Having a one-on-one battle engine
- An RPG would be the most viable option like Warhammer perhaps? each person can create their own world and army to command

Game Development:
- A seperate code forum for the project once its decided what it will be so there can be a required code and submitted code area, this will stop coders re-coding stuff thats already been done
- A forum for the team in darkbasicpro.com (like the previous suggestion) but also a website for the project with its own forum with lots of boards so work can be categorized.
- It would have to be free because there's no way to pay every contributer.


In case of Being an Online game:
- DBP only supports 500 odd players so a custom TPC/UDT library (already available fortunately) would have to be used

Contundant opinions and ideas:
- IanM said: "Any code that doesn't fit these criteria should be bounced back to the coder unchanged. It's up to them to fix it.
This leaves a job at the centre for one or more people to vet/test code submissions and to keep the source together (with source control), and to guide (not control) the direction of development. It is up to people to choose what they want to work on (they ARE contributing their time for free after all) and the most you should do to steer them is to provide a 'to do' list.From my own personal point of view, I am not willing to submit code to a project that I do not believe is completely open, although I will always answer questions if I am able to"


Association with DarkBasic Pro LTD:
-Haven't been approved for the moments
- Game being promoted by DarkBasic Pro LTD? Possible...

Colaborators's *Hall of fame* (So far):
Electron
Darth Shader
EdzUp
Andrew11
Bob Vila
D_D
IanM

Special thanks (so Far) to:
Rich (Appreciated member of the DarkBasic LTD Staff)

Progress of the game:
-0%

Note: The Colabators's names in the "colaborators's Hall of Fame" are based in the nicks of those colaborators in the www.darkbasicpro.com Forum.
We haven't ask for their original names, and if by any chance their nicks have any similarity with their own names this wasn't planned in anyway by us.

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Plutarck
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 19:00
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Ok, I'm always bad at figuring out what my first sentance is going to be, so I'm just going to jump right into "in no particular order" comments


1) Open-Source. It isn't Open Source if just about anyone who wants it can't see it. If you do make it Open Source, you have a friend in the business, so to speak: [url]SoureForge.com[/url]

There is at least 1 similar site, but that is the biggest, and probably the best. If you don't know about them already, have a look around and see just how they work.


2) Security. "Trust is a weakness." First of all, the only thing that can be trusted is the server, since you control it; the client has absolutely zero trust, regardless of project. The only difference in Open Source and Anything Else is that it is only slightly easier to hack the client. That's it. Just take a look at games like EverQuest and Ultima Online, and many First Person Shooter games, to see the extremes to which people are willing to go - including utilizing decompilers, hex editing, programs which alter values held in memory by the game (they are called "trainers"), and packet filtering.

In short, no matter the application, the client is always to be in a state of no trust, and the server must take care of absolutely everything which is important, never relying on the client to be honest. Those kinds of security measures can only be overcome by hacking the server - and if they can do that, obviously you are screwed anyway, so don't worry about it.

Conclusion: Open Source only ensures that "security through obscurity" is not a viable option, as anyone can just open up the code and take a look at what you aren't doing right. Luckily that isn't the only option, and for games - where people are stunningly willing to go to nearly any lengths neccessary to cheat, and then so many others can so easily and effortlessly do the same once The Way has been discovered - it is a pretty useless option anyway.


3) Start Small. Absolutely anyone who knows anything will tell you this. Over and Over. And Over. And Over. And if you don't listen, you are almost certain to wish you had.

So if you are going to make a "community game", none of the options are a good first-try. Here's a bit of wisdom I heard on game-making: start by making Pong. Yes, Pong. If you can't make Pong then you can't make much of anything else worthwhile, either - and if you are really too good for Pong, you'll be done in no time flat.

Then make Space Invaders. That too should take no time at all - but if your process is fundamentally flawed, you'll see pretty quickly.

Then, if DarkBASIC is as powerful as it seems to be, then you can skip quite a few steps after that and go straight for something more closely related to actually being an RPG.

However, going for an online RPG is bad, for if nothing else one simple reason: an online game is neccessarily alot more complicated than one that is not online. And: the more players of a game there are (one player, two player, multiplayer, etc), the more difficult to create said game will be.

So creating an online, massively multiplayer game is like going in to a bar and making one of the first drinks of your life be 1 Case of Vodka; it is going to taste bad, you probably won't be able to finish it, and you'll feel even worse the next day.


It would seem that the best sort of game to try out, beyond the introductory testing "lets see if we can even finish Pong", is something similar to a console-ish RPG. But then it is all a matter of finding the right balance of difficulty, interest, and how long you want it to take for it to be "released" - and no shortage of planning, which is probably best done after you have some idea of your capabilities (in this case, "your" means "the group/community/whatever acting as a team". remember: good communities don't neccessarily make good teams).


I personally, should I decide to go all the way through and get into DarkBASIC beyond the level of introductory consideration (I have to balance it against my other similar interests and amount of time available for them, the former of which includes learning Python, C, or C++ - among others), you can bet the first game I will try to create is a simple version of Pong. Then I might even try a 3D Pong and see if I can manage that, too.

"My house has a 3D interface. I'm constantly losing crap, running into things, and it's always a mess."
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Pyro
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 00:50
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You obviously are no getting the point of the project. I see your suggestion are directed to YOU...while i would want to be directed as US or WE, the most important thing you must understand is that i am not the project, and i am not the leader of the project (there is no leader). The idea is the whole community work on this.
I am clear in what an open-source project is, thank you for clearing it up anyway. About your security comments, you certainly are right, thats why on the - with making an open-source online rpg, but the idea is the community decides this! Again, if you read my posts and "Game Project:ideas list" you would find out about a Semi-Open source (a phrase that i invented, so if you say that doesn't exist is because i made it out), which again is a more secure way. However, i am sure someone will suggest ways to make an open-source project but secure, which will be the counterpart of what you are saying, thats why we have to wait more, but thanks for thw suggestion.
Starting from something easy, that is perfect for someone who is just getting into the language, but is a COMMUNITY project, there are many people in the community who knows how to code, we are invinting them to help us, dont ask us to start doing a PONG because is not between our expectations and it will be definitely boring for those who can do something better.
However, i see that at the end you clear that YOUR means GROUP, and thats good to know, if the community does't work well together, then definitely we wont do a good POng right? Its worth the trying, nothing will be lose, and if we do the Pong game...little will be win.
Again, my opinion, i wait for more suggestions to the progress. Thanks!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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