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Geek Culture / Directx 10 / Vista Worries

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 18:26
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I read somewhere that Direct X 10 will NOT be compatible with Direct X 9 and below. If thats true thats potentially terrible news

Does anyone know whether if that is true, you will be able to install direct x 9 separately on Vista to allow you to run your directx7-9 games (and thus also dbc and dbpro) games? Direct X hasn't thusfar allowed separate versions to eb installed, opting instead for backwards comaptibility.

I'm interested in how dbpro will cope with Vista and DirectX10, whether it will be able to be easily adapted to the new, like it did going from dx8-9 and Win98/ME-XP (just recompile it all) or whether it means that people using vista and/or direct x 10 will not able to use dbpro and games/software written in it?

I'm quite worried about this, as should anyone looking to make games/software thats going to take them longer than a year to finsih...


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 18:29 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2006 18:30
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DX9 will apparently be run as an emulated layer - thus slowing things down somewhat.
DX8 and previous version apparently wont be usable.

What they should do is remove the emulated layer, and let it run natively, BUT make it an optional download plug-in type thing.

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Kohaku
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 18:29
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There must be some kind of emulator thing if that's true, otherwise they'd be brushing off a ton of software that's made them what they are today.
But idk.
There was talk in the newsletter about a new version of DBP to handle DX 10. It "will" happen.


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soapyfish
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 18:33 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2006 18:35
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Quote: "brushing off a ton of software that's made them what they are today."


Don't suppose they're too bothered about something like that seeing as they've already got the money.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 19:23
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DX9 is supposed to be emulated, but we'll see how well that pans out. They cannot just 'run' DX9 instead of 10 like some kind of plugin, it's a core system component that drives pretty much *everything*, especially the new Aero effects. Not something you just turn on and off. I think you have to look to the future, and when you do that there comes a point somewhere when you say 'sod it' to backwards compatibility, and set a new standard to base from.

After-all, you don't HAVE to upgrade to Vista. Remains to be seen how this pans out though!

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 19:39
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I didn't mean DX9 should run the OS - just any games that need it.

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SirFire
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 19:58
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I think most people will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new age of vista. I'm a die-hard win2kp fan myself.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 20:11
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Quote: "I'm a die-hard win2kp fan myself."

I still can't see how that works... I can't STAND 2kpro at all, and getting games to work on it, it's a joke...
XP is teh BEST, and I'm really looking forward to Vista...

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 21:23
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Unfortuantely when Microsoft release a new operating system, as a software developer you pretty much have to use it, because you know within a couple of years, most pcs will be running it, as all new pcs will come with it preinstalled. It doesn't make sense to just continue making software for an older operating system if it won't work in the new one, as you won't be seen by the public as being up to date and therefor "knowledgable" enough to make stuff worth them buying. A rediculous mindset I realise, but one thaat is quite common, I remember when Windows 95 came out, people instantly dissmissed DOS games as if the Win 95 ones would be somehow ten times better

I guess as long as DX9 stuff is emaulted 100% perfectly then dbpro and stuff made with it will be ok, even if it will run slower. I wonder realistically how much of a difference will be noticable? 5-10% I could easily stomach, 50% I most certainly couldn't.

I agree its always best to look towards the future and its good to hear that dbpro or some db product will exist for the new format. I find it hard to keep hoping that it won't in=vlove massive re-writes, or potentially having to start again and wait for all the bugs to be ironed out again. DBPro is great now, but its taken a lot of updates to make it properly usable, mine wouldn't even compile properly til patch 3...


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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 22:19
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Obviously if DX10 isn't compatible at all, and DBP games are broken, TGC will *have* to get with the times within a few years and upgrade their compiler. Even if it's an upgrade for DX10 for those of us who will be early adopters of Visa.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 23:48
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DX9 and DX10 could just be switched between themselves with no slowdown. They are just basically different addresses in the computers memory. One folder could contain DX9 and another could contain DX10. Dll's are shared anyway so just give the DX10 dll's new names.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 23:53 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2006 23:55
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If emulating DX9 with DX10 truely slows things down (And probally is seletive in support) then wouldn't it be a better idea to have a program merely switch the files out?

If Vista it self doesn't rely on DX10 running that is, and then there is the fact that DX9 will probally not run on Vista...


[edit] I type too slow[/edit]

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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 23:56
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Jeku - yes but they might see this as an opportunity to release a completely new re-write and charge us for it, whilst not guaranteeing compatibility with our old source code, like happenned with Pro. Not that that ultimately was a bad thing, I now never use DBC, it just took a while to adjust and cost me 100 quid at the time

Pincho - yeah thats what I'd like to do - its just whether Microsfot will let us - the haven't so far

Wonder if Vista will have a "XP compatibility" mode like xps ones? That'd be interesting, and they might make that use direct x 9...


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Killswitch
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 00:04
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Vista does rely on DX 10, that's the whole point. It's being used for Aero, the new GUI.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 00:40
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Hmm... and what is the point of this new gui?
So just jettison Aero, and then replace the DX files... but knowing microsoft, there is something else. What is it?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 00:40
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Joel:

I was a diehard 2kpro fanboy up until very recently, and I never had any problems getting games (or anything else) to run under that OS unless it was older (circa win 98 - ish). And in all the time I used that OS (for gaming, apps development, game coding, music, etc etc) I never once had it blue-screen on me, never! (people can believe that or not but its the honest truth) Thats why I had a dual boot 98/2kpro machine, self imposed backwards compatibility Heck, I set up a DOS box on a spare crap machine I had lying around and was playing Cyberia and The 7th Guest a couple weeks ago. Luckily I had an ISA soundcard lying around

SORRY UR NOT COMEDIAN
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 11:18
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Quote: "DX9 and DX10 could just be switched between themselves with no slowdown. They are just basically different addresses in the computers memory. One folder could contain DX9 and another could contain DX10. Dll's are shared anyway so just give the DX10 dll's new names."


Ok let me try re-phrasing this a bit - DX10 will drive the entire look of Vista. Every button, every window, every icon, every drop-down menu, every input, sound, etc. Are we getting the bigger picture yet? Do you honestly believe you will be able to just rename some core system DLLs and have DX9 back again?!

Quote: "So just jettison Aero, and then replace the DX files"


Riiiight. Damn it, of course it's that simple. Just remove Aero and.. whoah, shit.. where's everything gone? Oh that's right, I removed the GUI from Windows.

Please, come on, use the common sense you were all born with?

Another thing worth considering is the system requirements of Vista.. they're huge if you want it to run well, so even if DX9 emulation is 20% slower I'd be surprised if you notice it unless you're running on the same old hardware. Vista is going to require a PC upgrade for loads of people, me included - I'm not putting it anywhere near my PC, and it's not that bad a rig, but without a processor upgrade to something either natively 64-bit or dual-core, forget it. It might run, but it won't be the way its intended.

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Me!
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 12:33
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yeah? thats realy smart, destroy a whole truckload of backwards compatability for a new look desktop? wtf?, thank gawd I am almost ported over to Linux, now if I can just get DB to run under wine then Micro$oft can go play with themselves in the middle of the M1.



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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 13:35
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It needs to be done - a lot of software is old, badly designed and buggy - if quality of software can be improved, that'll be a good thing.

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Manic
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 13:50
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why do i get the feeling it won't be?

I don't have a sig, live with it.
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Me!
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 13:58 Edited at: 4th Jan 2006 13:59
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I have no issue with them improving stability, but killing compatability for the sake of a pretty GUI? and a hell of a lot of software may be old, but a lot of it is well made, usefull, and the new stuff is no improvement on the old so why would I buy it again?, PLUS I get to not be able to run a whole host of games that I could run previously, I will be better off with Linux and Wine than stuff from Micro-lock-in-bloat-ware-forced-upgrade-osoft, plus for every PC I build I will save myself a couple of hundred quid not having to buy an OS, then theres the DRM issues, the security issues, stability issues, better automation of tasks, configurability.....



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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 14:07
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Quote: "but killing compatability for the sake of a pretty GUI"

Why not ? Saves having to re-code all DirectX's back to DX 7 for a start.
Get rid of all the old stuff, and it should be much cleaner and more stable.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 19:36
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They're not killing all the backsupport, DX 9 will still be supported - albiet not exactly as fast as it could be.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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JoelJ
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 19:36
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Quote: "I never once had it blue-screen on me"

I have never had XP Pro blue screen on me... it's randomly rebooted and froze on me a few times, but I think that's more hardware related

Quote: "why do i get the feeling it won't be?"

because everything MS does, everyone automattically thinks it's a BAD idea. cut them a break, they're actually TRYING to make their software BETTER, MORE STABLE, remember how last week you were whining how it would BSOD on you? and the week before, you couldn't get it to boot faster? and the week before that....

anywho, I for one, am REALLY excited for the big changes. Shame I won't be around to see any of it for two years...

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Me!
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 20:04
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Quote: " Shame I won't be around to see any of it for two years"


oh? so you got a custodial sentence?



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IanG
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 20:20
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Quote: "I have never had XP Pro blue screen on me"

wish i was so lucky - xp pro blue screens on me on occassions, it seems i'm just too quick for the norton goback drivers

i don't like how m$ is making everyone upgrade to vista for the new directx, anyone who plays games will have to upgrade, at gun point by the looks of it


amd athlon xp 2600+,1280mb,FX 5200 128mb,200gb,xp pro sp2
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 20:21
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Quote: "Shame I won't be around to see any of it for two years..."

Why ? Are you going to live at the North Pole ?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 20:23
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There should be a version of DX10 for XP & 2003 (probably not for 2000 though).

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Killswitch
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 20:33
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I've heard that DX 10 is Vista only, although I can't back that up.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 21:11
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Quote: "anyone who plays games will have to upgrade, at gun point by the looks of it"


Nobody is forcing you to own a computer.

I'm quite excited about the new changes too. There's a lot of crap in Windows that is there purely for backwards compatible reasons. Aren't you glad that we currently don't have to support Windows 3.1 and earlier? Many programs nowadays don't even support Windows '95.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 21:24
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And we all know how well windows works with backwords compatablility.

Here is a new idea. Scrap all the backwords compatablilty crap and keep everything running at 100%. Now MS will have a wizard that will allow you to transpher XP over to your new computer as a partition, for the price of the extra licence of course.

What I am curious about is what Companys are doing about the potential change in DX. I mean, are new releases going to have 'specail' compatability for DX 10, so that emulation problems are garenteed not to occur.

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 01:56
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I kinda love the idea of a new version of DBP designed for DX10, frankly. At the end of the day they simply can not fix the current language without 'breaking' it in most peoples' eyes as entire command sets need to be overhauled. A re-code of the core systems for DX10 along with an intelligent redesign of the commands could make a far superior tool to DBP.

It'll be interesting to see how the whole Vista-DX10 transition pans out as well if emulation is as bad as I'm kinda expecting


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 02:15
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Vista will come, but it's not like the rest the world is going to disappear overnight. We all have plenty of time to adjust

As for a Dbpro successor, I dunno, my gut feeling it'll be a tool with more erm, RAD tendencies. Not another fpsc, but a hybrid of sorts.

Kevin Picone
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Undercover Steve
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 03:12
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Are you saying thats bad? I personally think it may attract more people. More money, equals sweet company.

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Oddmind
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 06:49
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But what if your all wrong and DX10 will be compatible? I agree wih rich on this one, if your going to run vista, your going to have to have a kick a$$ system to do it on. By then you wont even notice the slow down. That is, if DX10 ISNT compatible. At the end of the day we all have to ask ourselves, did Y2K ever even happen?

formerly KrazyJimmy
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re faze
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 07:17 Edited at: 5th Jan 2006 07:17
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theyre talking about really expensive upgrades here, i mean a dual core processor and 4-8 gb of ram?
excuse me for being naive, I mean im not an expert here but isnt the job of an operating system to do as much work as possible while using all of the resources most efficiently?

if i want a better gui, ill get the vista styles pack, i dont want a better gui, i want more features, more stability and faster file searching.

the biggest improvement with win xp was NTFS, i think it existed on w2k also but it was almost manditory on winXP. what could be in dx10 that is so important that it could not be dx9 compatible?
(not to mention that it will totally kill blitz3D and dbc )

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!
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code spinneker
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 08:00
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lets all switch to ubuntu which uses NO RAM NO HARDRIVE and nothing if you run it off the disk, but oh wait microsoft has a monopoly on the games market meaning I can't play my beloved games without their HALF A$$ED PRODUCTS. Honestly openoffice kicks the crap out of Microsoft office and linux is infinetly more stable then windows. Hell have any of you tried to deal with the windows help files?
Hi Id like to know how to install a driver?
Would you?
1.Like to learn the language of the swahilians?
2.Scan your computer for drivers that are already there?
3.Watch as your sanity slowly drifts away in the mindlessness of it all?
Ok I want 2..
Would you like to?
1.scan your computer for drivers already there?
2.Learn swahili?
Ok I want 1
would you like to?
1.Like to learn the language of the swahilians?
2.Scan your computer for drivers that are already there?
3.Watch as your sanity slowly drifts away in the mindlessness of it
And so the pattern continues until you lose patiences and go download viruses and spyware just to spite windows and all that crap. And we wonder why people make viruses for windows? Its because noone likes windows but their too afraid to say it because they are worried that microsoft might inevitably SUE them...Oh my.
I may sue them for causing me to go insane, it just might win if I can find the right judge.

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dark coder
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 09:09
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it uses no ram? crickey

Halowed are the ori.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 09:25 Edited at: 5th Jan 2006 09:27
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Actually.....

Everybody uses Microsoft windows because GAMES RUN ON IT.

if DX10 stops games from running.................

Anybody can make A BRAND NEW OPERATING SYSTEM!!!

Microsoft could be in trouble if they make an incompatible OS. Especially one that costs a lot of money, and requires computer knowledge to use.

We want smaller not bigger.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 09:45
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Quote: "oh? so you got a custodial sentence?"

I'm going away for two years in a few months don't know where yet, but there will be no computer for me, I'll share more when I know more

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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 11:46
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In on Win2K. Why? As far as I'm concerned, all WinXP did was make the interface look prettier and add a few minor utilities that I can download as freeware from other sources anyway. Vista is looking like the same mindset...Form over Function.

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Raven
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 16:06
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Sounds like a lot of confusion over just what DirectX 10 is and what it will do "differently" to DirectX 9.

It's true that Windows Vista *REQUIRES* DirectX 10 to run, but then Windows XP *REQUIRES* DirectX 8.1 to run. Microsoft have been using DirectX far more and more for the background drivers, and now it is basically replacing GDI+ for even the most basic draw operations.

This doesn't change the fact though that Windows Vista DirectX 10 and Windows XP/2000 DirectX 9.0L (set to be released over the next few months) are basically identical in terms of features. The only difference is the level of integration into the OS.

They will both be released at the same time, and DirectX will run any DirectX 9.0 game just as well as any other version of Dx9. You'll get some bugs like you do between say 9.0a and 9.0c, but these are minor things to be expected and will be corrected in later release builds.

If you're worried that your games and Dark Basic Professional will just suddenly stop working, then stop. There's no need to worry. This isn't a major overhaul like what happened between 7.0 and 8.1, it's just an update. Everything is being rolled into a single system for developers anyway, that's the entire point in the XNA project.



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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 16:42
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Hi Raven, I didn't know you were still around, good to see you I hope you are right in what you just wrote, because that would certainly put my mind at rest...


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JoelJ
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 17:44
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and that's the raven we have all grown to love

Quote: "I hope you are right in what you just wrote"

it sounds just about right. Just google it, you'll find out that raven is pretty much right.

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 19:22 Edited at: 5th Jan 2006 19:23
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Quote: "but oh wait microsoft has a monopoly on the games market meaning I can't play my beloved games without their HALF A$$ED PRODUCTS."


It's not MS' fault that 99% of companies don't release their software on Linux. Go cry mammy to them.

I enjoy Ubuntu like you, but why don't you dual-boot if you're so upset?

EDIT:

Oh hey Raven--- long time no see


Automaton Games website has been revamped! Check it out!
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IanG
20
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Joined: 25th Sep 2004
Location: Cyberspace
Posted: 5th Jan 2006 23:32
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Quote: "theyre talking about really expensive upgrades here, i mean a dual core processor and 4-8 gb of ram?
excuse me for being naive, I mean im not an expert here but isnt the job of an operating system to do as much work as possible while using all of the resources most efficiently?"


windows is best described like a virus - it wants more and more and more

and when has windows ever used resources efficiently? it eats them up and does nothing about it, tis stupid


amd athlon xp 2600+,1280mb,FX 5200 128mb,200gb,xp pro sp2
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re faze
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Joined: 24th Sep 2004
Location: The shores of hell.
Posted: 6th Jan 2006 02:44
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i want win 3.1 it was so cute and efficient. imo they dropped the ball on 95,98ed1, and ME. completely.

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!
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tpfkat
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Joined: 1st Sep 2005
Location: lancashire/uk
Posted: 6th Jan 2006 11:05
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vista sounds intersting, xp been out a few years now and is old so a new os wont go amiss...i do think though that the main idea with directx was its backwards compatability, which is now lost. i think that vista will be put on the backburner by private owners as they wont be able to play older games that they still enjoy.
its businesses that push microsoft, when they bring out a new os a business owner wants it on his comp asap so that they at least look like their ahead with technology.so business owners are to blame.
either that or everybody in the world overnight suddenly goes apple or linux then watch bill gates cry as he wont be able to boost his billion dollar empire anymore...i guess he would just have to make do with 10 billion dollars to last him out....shame really.

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
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Me!
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Joined: 26th Jul 2005
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Posted: 6th Jan 2006 13:11
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yeah! that would be a shame, lets see, if Billy boy lasts another 40yrs, that would be 14600 days, at 24 hours a day thats 350400 hours, at 60 minutes a hour thats 21024000 minutes or 1261440000 seconds, if as has been said he has 10 billion dollars, thats 10000000000/1261440000=$7.92 a second every second of every day for the remainder of his life (ignoring interest on the capital) or $475.65 per minute, or $28538.81 per hour, or just a mere $684931.50 a day, awe! just over a half a million a day to live on?, could he manage to slum it like that?.



Windows: 32 bit extension/graphical shell for a 16bit patch to an 8bit OS originally coded for a 4bit CPU, written by a 2bit company that can't stand 1bit of competition, now available in 64bits.
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Kangaroo2 BETA2
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Location: Somerset / UK
Posted: 6th Jan 2006 14:04
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Its a myth that 3.1 was was any good, it still didn't run most dos stuff, was very memory hungry for the time (try running games that needed ems with it) and the install size for the time was huge (if memory serves correctly, about 20mbs, and many people had 100mb or less hard drives).

A DOS system running a graphical menu such as Quick Menu 3 was far more efficient in every area - and there were plenty of dos apps that were better looking and more efficient than windows version, like Envision Publisher and NeoPaint. The only reason I kept windows 3.1 installed at the time was to use CD-ROM encyclopaedias because we didn't have the internet...


Preorder EA here:http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=67575&b=8&p=0
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