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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Ideal System for DBP

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RossageSausage
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 07:23
Hey guys,

I am going to be purchasing a new pc (or building my own system) and I want to know what the ideal system specs would be for DarkBASIC Pro...I am mostly interested in operating system, cpu and vid card, the rest is no brainer. Is it better for me to go with an older o.s. like win98 or should I use XP?? Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

p.s. if you could also mention why you choose XP over 2000, Amd over Intel or ATI over NVIDIA (or vice versa)

THANX!!!
n3t3r453r
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Location: Russia
Posted: 9th Mar 2003 08:16
P4 1.7 (at least)
NVidia GeForce4 ATI 4200
256 - 512 Mb RIMM (not DIMM or SIMM)
Mouse: NetScroll Optical (not 'made in China' )
Keyboard
MS Windows XP SP1
Good stereo with headphones!!!
Latest U.S. Robotics modem
CD-R or CD-R\RW
TogaMario
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 09:31
GeForce ATI? ... GeForce4 TI4200 and make that the 128MB 8x AGP one too! Get the most from your rig Make sure to get a motherboard with 8x AGP compaitability.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
n3t3r453r
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 09:46
Sorry, offcouse TI
Freddix
AGK Developer
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 11:24
Win XP ?

I never noticed any interesting changes between win98 and XP excepts problems under XP .
The why XP ? 98 work really good . . . except if you really need more than 512Mo ram ( 89 isn't natively able to support more than 512Mo . . . )

indi
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 9th Mar 2003 11:28
im leaning towards a raedon 9000 series and theres a 256 meg card soon .

IanM
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 11:59
... for those with a bottomless wallet

Actually, this is an interesting thread for me - I'm looking at upgrading my graphics card from a tired old GeForce 2 MX.

For memory, get yourself 512MB of memory - the more you have, the more apps you can run at once - editor/compiler, paint prog, modelling prog etc, and memory is cheap enough.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 13:03
A 64Mb GF4MX isn't a BAD option, most effects are supported and its nice and quick, should set you back around £60, but if you can afford it (at the present I can't ) a Ti card is a better budget option. If money is not a factor, the latest cards not quite released are promising, looking at specs in a few PCMags recently, the biggest GeForceFX outperforming anything from ATI, but only Juuuust. Plus a friend of mine has one and it p*sses me off by being stupidly noisy.

I would personally say WinXP if you are buying a brand new system, or 98SE if you are upgrading an old one. On a system with components desinged for XP I have found it very stable. The Home version will definitely suffice unless you want to network it. Win98SE is probably the most stable Windows for older pcs, I've had no end of trouble with the various NTs, ME and 2000.

Processor wise, AMD is actually far ahead in the majority of performance issues to P4. They are far better value for what you can get for the same price. I would personally recommend an AMD 1800XP as these currently offer outstanding value for money if you can afford one, plump for a 2300XP or higher, and again if money is no object, look into dual processors, you can easily push 4Ghz that way

Obviously go for the fastest components you can afford, hdd, ram etc. And with RAM obviously more is most definitely preferable to less.

I recently bought parts and made up a AMD1800 machine with 1Gb Ram, GF4MX and 120Gb HDD for just under £350 which I think was a bargain. I've had virtually no problems with DBPro (Patch 4) programs slowing down, even when I reeeeaaallly push them

Obviously if you have more money buy more hardware, but the above spec I have more than suffices for myself. Heck I got on pretty well with my 800Mhz GF2 system

Two areas really worth paying more to improve for gaming are A: Monitor (pref flat screen, 19"+ I have 21" ) and B: Sound (5.1 or 6.1 surround sound is awesome if set up right )

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
TRS80Model1
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 18:12
What's wrong with XP, My computer has been on for over 3 months at home, LOL, Windows 98 needed rebooting every 10hrs at least.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 18:22
looking purely at home user versions of windows:

95 - fast, featureless. Now rarely supported.

98 - slow, mighty slow - so totally and utterly slow - slowest operating system in history - DONT TOUCH. Had features.

ME - fast, featured, stable.

XP - That license thing... Also the OS I see most technical problems with on public beta testing with DBPro apps...

My recommendation is ME as a development platform, unless you want to look at NT series....

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 18:23
I wish to add, when I say fast I am comparing this OS with other offerings from Microsoft...

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
TRS80Model1
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 18:52
If people are having problems with testing on XP, then wouldn't it be a good idea to develop on it, cause all the new computers for the last 2 years came out with xp. If it works on your xp then it will most likely work with others.
TRS80Model1
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 18:53
The only problems are the pirated versions which will not install sp1.
RossageSausage
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 19:05
YOU GUYS FREAKING ROCK!!!!
honestly I posted this then went to bed, woke up and had 11 [/i]GOOD[i] responses, thanx to everyone. Money isnt too much of a problem (I have enough saved up), the majority of my concern is the [/i]STABILITY[i] of the system that I build/buy. I dont want to be coding for a good day/week/month and then have my machine crash when I add some kick a$$ effect or try to bumpmap something. I believe XP is what I'll get because that is becoming the standard...I was just wondering if an earlier o.s. had a [/i]noticable[i] advantage over it. Thanks to everyone for your time you've all been more than helpful!

THANX!!!

P.S. Thanks for the breakdown Kangaroo2!!...and this is to PneumaticDryII (can anyone else confirm?) Is Win ME really a solid choice??? I own that o.s. and figured it was going to be left for dead so I went XP....is the support still alive and well for it?
Thanx again

Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 19:35
Important note: GeForce 4 means GeForce 4 Ti 4200 NOT GeForce 4MX. The MX version does not support a lot of DBPs advanced features such as pixel shaders.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Rob K
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 19:37
"98 - slow, mighty slow - so totally and utterly slow - slowest operating system in history - DONT TOUCH. Had features.

ME - fast, featured, stable."

Are we running two totally different OSes here?

Win98 SE is fast, reasonably stable and works on any PC, ME is slow, buggy and beta-ware.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
the_winch
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Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 9th Mar 2003 19:57
As much ram as you can afford, make sure os supports more the ammount you get. Win 98 only supports 512mb
fastest processor you can afford, amd tend to be cheaper than intel.
fastest grafics card you can afford. Getting the most popular chipset at the time is always a good idea as developers will make sure stuff works on it.

I like having 2 cd writers as you can leave for example you dbpro cd in one and still use the other one.

As for os, me is susposed to be buggy, 98se is faster at practically everything on my comp than with xp. Xp is more stable but I have had driver issues with oldish stuff and xp so I have to use both. I can get higher fps dbpro games when run under win98 insted of xp. With a newer computer this might not be true.

Rob K
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 21:18
XP is not slow as an OS - it is the shell (explorer.exe) that is SLOW! - Pop-up menues in the file explorer take up to 3 seconds to appear - which is utterly ridiculous on a P4 1.6Ghz 512 MB RAM machine.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 23:52
No probs, glad it helped

and just to reiterate my opinion, XP is only unstable if you are using old hardware or upgrading os. If you get compatible hardware, its the most stable version of windows I've ever used, and I was there since version 3.1 and MSDOS 6.22 Its very fast, but as Rob K just pointed out, as default it uses shelled versions of Internet explorer which does slow some apps down. However DBP Patch 4 runs a treat in it, a load more stable than I ever managed with DBC and 98/ME/2K.

The GF4MX is an excellent budget card which supports loads of cool features others don't, like shadow shading, reflection shading, lightmapping, toon shading, rainbow shading and loads of others, plus a 64Mb card is more than enough for DBP the minimum spec being only 8Mb The things you miss with the MX however are pixel shaders and vertex shaders. These can produce very nice effects, but are hardly a necessetiy for any type of game - HOWEVER I would recommend a TI if you can afford one, just don't skimp on RAM or Processor because of it

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 00:04
The oldest version of Windows I used was Windows 1.25 (although I never saw Windows 2) which was basically DOSSHELL.EXE. Would you believe it even features ALT-TAB task switching running on MS-DOS 1.1! I don't think anyone even heard of this until Windows 3.0...

Having said that I do not recommend either for DBPro...

The reason I do not like 98 is the same reason I do not like XP. Using the OS is a tiresome experience that is best left to people who aren't able to operate the keyboard and mouse at 'old timer' speeds - because if you can, you'll be waiting on the OS and in the 21st century that just isn't accepteable.

Microsoft have brought a lot of evil to this world, part of it is that their idea of progress keeps slowing us down, the other part is that this slow down pumps huge amounts of cash from us to them.

I find ME stable and fast and it is still widely supported, that's why it gets my recommendation for DBPro and that's why I don't recommend 98 or XP.

Given the choice I would use 95 still as that was the fastest and most stable of them all, however support is now lacking for 95.

AmigaDOS, Magic Workbench & a 'kin huge monitor is still the definitive OS solution, if only Microsoft ripped that off instead of Xerox.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Rob K
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 02:02
"slow down pumps huge amounts of cash from us to them."

What ?! - You actually paid for Windows ?

Seriously though, I am still using a version of Windows XP which MS gave me for free! (Yes, it is the full thing, yes I am using SP1) - prizes to anyone who can tell me how I managed that

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
TheCyborg
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 02:21
Windows ME is stable...
In a magazine i read that, the reason for windows ME are being hated by most of it's user (because it crashes all the time), is because they all THINK that windows ME is almost the same as 98 so i will just use my old Win98 drivers for WinME... Go get some drivers wich was build to run under ME (some places called 9x).
I have used winME for over 2 and a half year without problems.

TheCyborg Development.
http://TheCyborg.Amok.dk
The Ultimate Source To DarkBASIC Programming.
TRS80Model1
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:06
BLAH, I hate all previous versions since XP has came. I've used for over a year and have yet to get your famous blue screen that all you guys love. I run 20-30 programs at once most of the time and you know how frustrating it is to lose all that work cause windows <xp wanted to fart.

Blah to all you blue screen lovers.
TRS80Model1
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:09
P.S. Rob, was you a whistler beta tester?
BoB Vila
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:45
ROFL, I can't believe you said that AMD was up on the P4 for performance. The top AMD chips barely benchmark at half of a P4. I was a big AMD buff myself but they have been truly sliding in the past year. They just can't keep up with intel. Either they are saving up for something BIG or they are just plain sucking. This is why the P4 prices are so inflated. Even though it might say AthlonXP2300 don't let that confuse you, its not 2.3 ghz its more like 1.6.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 04:07
same here Cyborg - but hell i don't care how other fair with the OS's ... i oftenly get the destinct impressions most here think they know howto use them, yet wonder why they crash 24/7 - yet people who've never used an OS before somehow don't have problems with them.

that aside, is this new computer for development or playing purposes?

personally i'd buy 2machines for development purposes...

AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (1.47GHz) Processor
Heatsink and Fan
MSI MS-6380LE Motherboard
128Mb DDR PC 2100 Memory (£125)
+ 256Mb DDR PC 2100 Memory (£25)
GeForce4 Ti 4200 64Mb AGP 4x (£105)
Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical 1.1 (£24)
Logitech Delux Keyboard (£12)
(to a developer a good mouse and keyboard are as essential as a fast system, no one makes mice as well as MS and no one makes keyboards as well as Logitech)
17" CTX VL700 (£90) or Aries 15" LCD TfT (£180) (there are some very good reasons for LCD over CRT monitors)
IBM U/ATA 133 120Gb (£90)
SBLive! 5.1 (£45)
Inspire 2400 2.1 (£30)
SBS250 Speakers (£15)
Midi Tower Case (£28)
Philips 32x10x40x12x CDRW/DvD (£60)
1.44 Floppy Disk (£10)

now that is literally the barebones of a fairly powerful yet cheap system ... you other system, you just get yourself a second HDD (as cheap as they come) and a CDRom (also as cheap as they come) then just swap the two when you need to test things on a slower system

could get cheaper mice and keyboards + a cheap second hand montior for like £20 you can get some pretty decent SVGAs
make sure you grab a Processor/Motherboard/Ram kit with a builtin SoundCard - cause they're the most problematic and best to test with
Also look for GeForce Mx or something similar, or ATi Radoen All-in-Wonder 7000 or something cause they're cheap and relatively powerful ... something like £20-40

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 04:12
bob... they're processors benchmark quicker at the slower speeds - almost 20% quicker, but then again benchmarks don't say much on actual processing.

intel chip are still using set speed with no variance, this makes them constantly a set speed ... whereas the AMD's will react to a specific situation.

unless something is actually written specifically for P4's the AMD's outperform them everytime - that aside though, AMD do have the Optiron on the horizon ... and the Athlon Beta which just take the piss out of the Intel equivilants if you've been following Pentium5 or Itaniums were suppose to have hit shelfs publically this past winter, yet still not there for the public cause its suppose to beat the Optiron ... and intel know damn'd well it can't.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 16:42
"What ?! - You actually paid for Windows ?"

Am I the only one here that actually writes software themselves and consequently takes a dim view of piracy?

I go as far to register my shareware and I earn less than some students... go figure at this guy!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
TRS80Model1
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 17:03
Mr. P., Microsoft does give out betas for testing, but the testers are not supposed to say they got it for free.

I think his dry humor just slipped right past you.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 17:12
"Am I the only one here that actually writes software themselves and consequently takes a dim view of piracy?"

You're not the only one at all.

"I go as far to register my shareware and I earn less than some students... go figure at this guy!"

I nearly always register my shareware apps - some of them are just invaluable. Winrar for example is an amazing program and well worth the $30 I spent on it. Same goes for Milkshape, Boxer, PicaView, etc.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Rob K
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 17:21
"Am I the only one here that actually writes software themselves and consequently takes a dim view of piracy?"

As an author of anti-piracy software, I also take a dim view of piracy. I did not pirate Windows XP - they basically gave me a 180 day evaluation version of RC1 (of which I have about 30 days left) which has subsquently been upgraded to SP1 (they gave it out at one of their Windows on the Move shows)

MilkShape is a good case for Rich's point - It is worth waay over the £12 asking price.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 21:31
lol... ya'll know my veiws on piracy (no point being a broken record too much)

that said, they don't get the Beta's for free ... you have to be part of the Microsoft Developers Beta Community - which you have to pay around £150/year for (or something like that, i'll have to check my bank statement)
and the Beta versions of the software are never quite updated the same way as the Retail copies - so you end up with more bugs which Retail users don't have... sometimes amusingly it works the other way, and the Retail users have a bug which Beta testers don't hehee

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
lcfcfan
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 21:52
get the new radeon r9800 pro if u have the cash, dogs danglies so i hear as fast as some geforce fx cards.

Sweet
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 22:00
lmao ... they're not even close i can promise you that

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 22:12
Bob - Um no offense but have you actually tested your theory on processors? A friend of mine runs and independant PC shop and currently has over 60 different spec new PCS in his warehouse, the AMDs out perform the P4s in every area, other than processor bench marks, the only exception being specifically P4 optimised software. Almost all games run smoother, faster and stabler on equivalent AMD processors, I can assure you - and the majority of PC Magazines will tell you the same thing - all the independant ones not bought over with industry bribes anyway

Raven - I haven't tested myself, but apparantly although the best GFX out performs the best Radeon, its not by as much margin as NVidia would hope for Still, mental cards tho - I quite want one. I want the one that takes up 2 drive bays with its heat sync and fan I wanna build a beast of a system, with neon lights, cut outs, bubble tubes and everything else hideous and naff

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me

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