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silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 01:46
In a different forum i had a thread about graphics that look at the level of Halo. Now that I know that graphics as good as (and better than) Halo CAN be dont then how come no-one has done it. Strutt your stuff was ok but it was real amateur and and graphics left a lot to be desired (no offense). Anyways i was just wondering why no-one has made all that graphical magic (maybe it is so new?? ) Thanks..
Gardocki
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:35
I would think a lot of it seems to do with the fact that DB Pro is so new, as you said. I would also theorize that it is due to the fact that to get the good graphics DP Pro supports you must have external, often expensive, 3D modelling and animation software. Also, since most of the people who have DB Pro right now are amateurs (meaning of course that companies have not caught on to this amazing product), they do not have the amount of time necessary to spend on making such an amazing game as Halo.

The best looking game I have seen so far is Star Wraith III, and it was made in DB Classic! If we wait long enough, someone is going to create something truly amazing in DB Pro.

silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:57
I certainly hope that is my team. Between the various members of my team we have the expensive sofware we need. We have 3D Studio Max 5, The latest versions of the Adobe Products, and we will soon have DarkBASIC pro. We intend to go commercial with our game if sucessful. It will be something scary a la Aliens vs Predator 2. You mean Star Wraith 3 was only in standard? Wow. Then it definetly is possible to make something awesoem in pro. Thanks for your time.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 04:18
Silver it has been achieved within several programs, theyve just not been shown publically or not been receieved well by the community.

but then again alot of people wouldn't know good graphics if it hit them in the damn'd face because they constantly compare PC graphics to the Consoles which have specifically designed things to make the images they produce appear to be more than what they are ... a good example is the PS2's blurring effect - which truely piss's me off.

and the XBox constantly has FSAA 4x on (some titles have it set to 8x) ... you want to see some nice graphics download Rubix Cubix, or Virtual Insanity, or even Binary Moon's Tutorial Game "Limit Rush"

they each have very nice graphics and are DarkBasic NOT DarkBasic Pro! ... which has an improved graphics engine

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kjetil
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 14:51
"i was just wondering why no-one has made all that graphical magic ..."

Because it takes time, lots of time, loads of time...some cofee and more time

- Kjetil
Kjetil
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 15:28
btw; expensive software doesn't mean good graphics. This is important. Experienced peoples makes good graphics not the software.

- Kjetil
Gardocki
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 16:57
I absolutely agree. However, a person with some talent and good software is a lot easier to come by than a person who can pull photo-realistic images out of Microsoft Paint.

Rob K
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 17:24
I can think of a very simple explanation, it takes a hell of a lot of time and skill to do models and textures of the quality used in Halo. They have teams of dedicated 3D artists (probably at least 10 people working on the art of the game - FULL TIME). Whereas DBP apps normally only have 1 person doing the WHOLE game - programming, 3D models, textures, sound etc. and they can only work on it for an hour or so per night.

This is why Halo quality has not been done in DBP, I am fairly sure that the engine could cope with most of the SFX required.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Rob K
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 17:26
Oh and did I mention the fact that these people have also probably had 4 or 5 years learning on how to do this and have probably also got quite a few years industry experience. Most of us have little or neither of these.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 21:27
most have more than that Rob ... Bungie had 2 games before Halo prior to development - so the artists had 3years of Development Experience, another 4years of Degree Experience + most come from an artist background and did it on the amature development scene for a good few years.

Most artists have programmers who work professionally oftenly have atleast a Decade of experience on most here.

that aside... THERE HAVE BEEN GOOD LOOKING TITLES DEVELOPED IN DARKBASIC/DARKBASIC PRO - people just have to open thier eyes once in a while. As i said, most people expect console graphics on computer incapable of it which are not using an optimised code using an interpreter rather than machine compiled language.

personally i think most here would be bloody hard pushed to get the Halo level of physics and AI, even working within a more open language like C++ - as that in itself is out of the range of most professional teams.

Bungie are a bloody old development team and have been doing this kinda thing for around 2decades ... and alot of people here havn't even been alive that long
i mean i'm just saying personally i don't think its likely, but this is never to say anything is impossible, because coders and artists have the nasty habit of going "ahh a challange, we'll bloody show you"

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 22:47
I've been making games por since Spectrum days and as u already know I think graphics of Halo standrad can easily (in an easily possible way, not easy in time/skill ) be made with DBP, however it should be noted that DBP alone cannot produce such graphics.

I would personally recommend Milkshape ($20) and PaintShopPro ($80) to any aspiring artists on a budget wanting truely spectacular graphics in their games.

Personally I also find a lot of use for 3dsmax5 ($3000)and PhotoShop7 ($800), but if you can't afford them don't pirate - they aren't essential until you are good enought to exploit them, and u can't sell anything made with pirated software anyways

Basically graphics that good take skill and dedication, not really specs, in this day and age

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 00:09
The biggest single skill an amateur programmer can master is finishing their projects. A project of the Halo-standard would not really interest me because of the development lead-time.

Here's a prime example of a commercial game developed by a very small team: Despite the mammoth list of credits the core of Microprose's Formula One Grand Prix is written in assembler by Geoff Crammond.

Geoff doesn't assemble a big team around him and he writes the base engine alone (I believe) only allowing others to help with some of the media.

Since he became widely known to the computer game industry in the days of the Amiga Geoff has written: Stunt Car Racer; F1GP; F1GP2; F1GP3; and F1GP4.

All those re-writes of the F1GP game can pretty much be divided into the two different core-engines and a season 'data file' although there where various enhancements at each stage.

So Geoff, working in a very small team has written 3 games since 1980 something. I've done more than that this year alone.

So the choice is simple: Write a commercial quality release; or write 100 releases of high quality in the same time frame.

I think you know which bench I sit on.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 00:48
I agree with you thoroughly Pneu - But ya see thats why I've stopped developing games and started developing a high powered adaptable 'engine' for all my future games - the 'engine''ll take ages, but eventually save me loads of time and help me realistically make pro quality games quickly

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 00:55
It all depends on someones veiw of commercial quality doesn't it?

alot of development teams now believe that eye-popping graphics are the route of the award winning titles, and games that are the best.

perhaps to a degree this is true, because if your game looks like the backend of the dog no one will want it ... however that said (and this is comming from an artist) graphics DO NOT make the game.

the main reason i see ALOT of people failing around here, giving up and such, is because they're looking for professional results today with none of the effort ... and when they achieve them they want to know why achieving this professional result the game itself isn't at all fun to play.

at the end of the day a game is there to be enjoyed, NOT looked at ... making it appear pleasing is a by product which is the job of people like myself to make it look AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE with very limited resources.
we're not there to make sure that the enemy collides with our worlds properly, we're they're to make sure that the polygon count per scene is acceptable enough to not cause slowdowns with the rest of the worlds polygon counts... and making sure all the effects are consistant.

believe it or not, but if you have a consistantly poor looking world, that world will look 100x better than a world which has a single outstanding feature which looks unbelievably nice.

For developing anything, really you have 5 Stages you go through.

Planning -> Research -> Design -> Development -> Debug

now thought these are the MAIN parts, a good developer is capable of improvising when things got arse up.
But also should know when to just sit back and know when something isn't going to work - as to take another approach.

you'll find a game which would have taken you say a week to develop, you take a single day to plan it - and you already have your program as good as done ... rather than sitting there improvising and making "make-do" programming, you can simply sit there and program the games within a few hours for each feature.
next you'll find you spend another day patching it altogether ... and finally a third day debugging.

(during which time if you had an artist he would've been able to do the artwork you require)
so thats 3days to do something that people fumble a week over - and when you get the hang of planning programs and developing flow charts in your head for effects and such - suddenly programming doesn't seem all that hard or lengthy.

for example, i recently spent literally almost 50hours trying to figure out someone elses code for a simple snake game - it was virtually commentless and rather than using any descriptive titles it was all letter designations.
eventually i did decypher most of it (one small part still illudes me though) ... however i got bored today, and decided to completely rewrite ... so i worked out how i'd structure the snakes position, how i'd place down the food, if there was a way to tie it all in.

I spent 2hours planning out snake - i spent another 3hours programming it ... and now i have a fully working snake which is far better than the one which i actually had the full source to working and i just had to figure it out.

if you understand where the programmers came from in the first place this makes developing comples tasks far easier

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:36
Yep exactly Raven.

In the whole Gameplay/Vs/Graphics thing its easy to forget that a game has to play well for ppl to like it. Although graphics can add atmosphere, and graphics that smooth the gameplay make it easier, as do good camrea angles etc.

The thing that many ppl get hung up on is HOW the effects were generated not what the finished product looks like. In some cases for example, an animated plain can replace a complex set of particles in lights, and in other places, a simple lightmap or even clever texture can replace a genuine light. Or sphere mapping can often replace genuine reflections - you get my point. Things like this mean many effects not available can be made, and many available effects aren't used, because they are too processor intensive. This is the case all the time with console development. Halo is a very nicely optimised game, but technicaly not amazingly well put together - its just very well designed and built

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 02:52
well thats always the way... people think of hugely technical ways to achieve goals, which end up processor intensive and they wonder why its not as far as the professional title - you talk to any 3D Developer and they'll tell you the key to sucess is faking effecting with something simple

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
w00t
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 14:20
Just as a note, geoff crammond wrote revs on bbc too, which was one of the only "realistic" racing games on the bbc, and the only one on the bbc that i know had gradients and variable bends, in true 3d You dont need great graphics to make a great game, part of why halo is so good is that everything "feels" right, like the physics and dynamics of objects.

KamaKase
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 00:10
hmmm, there has been a DB game released to the public via Take 2. (Ah good old T2). It was called Loco-comotion. I didn't like it, but you can go down to your local game store and buy it. It's about trains. All I can say is kudos to the designer!

Dave J
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 15:07
Hmm, that was made with DB? Never knew that.

Anyway, although we've sort of strayed from this topic, I'd like to go back and say that 3D Studio Max isn't nescessary at all. It's very complex and hard to work, unless you've been using it for a while, then it's not needed.

My modeller uses Wings3D (which is free) and a day after picking it up, he's been making things like this in a couple hours:

http://ep.designex.net/DS/SOL/SOLDemon.png

Of course, natural talent is part of it, but he found Wings3D simple to use and just as good as 3DS Max. Now I don't think it's nescessary to spend $3000 on a program, when you can do nearly as good with something else for free.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 15:32
... actually it wasn't, the DarkBasic Locomotion was out before it - and the developer may have even had a copyright on the name.

However the actual game which was released was developed within C++ by an amature team from bulgaria (of all places lol)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
silversnake
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 23:13
You are Exeat. An expensive modeling program is just the thing NOT to get. We intend to use 3D Canvas pro which is provided by this company, so we figure that teh formats MUST be supported by DB since they are from same company. Only thing is that most of the more budget modeling tools probably dont have all the incredible effects that can be acheived with 3DS MAx. Just a though.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 01:08
and silversnake just won our newbie of the month award
answer to how and why on the back of a self address'd postcard sent to

DBS,
Somewhere in the Farmer's Country,
Got a little bored aroun this point,
PO BOX like-i-give-a-damn

... this isn't to be too hard on you here, but really you should check with your modeler what is happening and the programs you should use before saying comments like that - and if he/she doesn't know, then quite frankly you about as bugger'd as a pretty boy after dropping the soap in prison.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
malcom2073
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 01:34
I do happen to have 3dsMax courtesy of my parents. And I totally agree that the true test of any amerature programmer is to finish a single project completely. It is hard. I have started QUITE a few, and only really finished one.

the architect
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 03:08
When the creaters of TOY STORY revealed the software they used, they was amzement since the package was considered low budget by film standards. Game design is about observation and self critism to develope.

Games written on game consoles are created using the same technology. Yet playstation games come in an abundance of styles and quality.

Just because a game does not look like Halo does not make it a poor peice of work.

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