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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Should I get DBPro?

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Cyber_Sneak
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 23:49
Hi there,

The home page advertises stuff like cube mapping, bumpmapping, and vertex and pixel shaders. This seems like really advanced stuff for a RAD like db! or maybe i shouldnt call it a RAD? Can it actually reasonably handle things like this?

What about speed and bug isues? By checking out a few other posts, I get the impression that that dbpro is really buggy! And from other forums I glean that dbpro is way slow.

is dbpro for me? I do have C/C++ programming skillz and am also checking out such engines as Torque and Power Render. If the home page is no joke, DBPro seems to have better graphics abilities than Torque. However, does its networking abilities compare to that of Torque? And does the speed/graphics technology compare to something like the Power Render API?

I understand that nothing big has been made with DBPro. i can understand why, as serious devs tend to be wary of game creator programs like this. However, if what the home page advertises is really true, dbpro might actually have the capabilities to do something great!

So basically what I want to know, is everything on the home page true. Or is it more like:

"well everything that's advertised is true....BUT because of such and such reasons it actually works out differently"

its not like that is it?? thx!!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:01
"maybe i shouldnt call it a RAD?"
-lmao no you shouldn't

"I get the impression that that dbpro is really buggy!"
-DBPro is very new and had many bugs, most of which have been patched out. Some annoying ones still exist, but are being fixed daily


"Can it actually reasonably handle things like this?"
-Yes, if your graphics card and spec are good enough. However, as with all games using these effects too much slows it down a treat. Its all about balance.

"from other forums I glean that dbpro is way slow"
-With many objects at once its very very slow, until you install Patch 4, which is nearly on general release. This fixes all real speed issues

"I do have C/C++ programming skillz and am also checking out such engines as Torque and Power Render" etc...
Well it depends how good at C you are and how big your team is. A C++ based game will always run slightly faster than a DBPro one, because DBP is just a secondary (?) language that is then translated by the pc to C++ anyway (lol not exactly, but its a simple explanation) - However the advantages over C++ games development are massive in the way that it highly simplifies accessing DirectX and sppeds up games development at least tenfold

As for Networking, I know it can do this but its not an area many have explored yet, myself included

" I understand that nothing big has been made with DBPro. i can understand why, as serious devs tend to be wary of game creator programs like this."
-No thats not the main reason - the main reason is that this is a new product, and truely 'impressive' looking professional work takes a long time. Some users (myslef included) have made some amazing results, but many (myslef included lol) prefer not to show them till they are trully finished and commercially availble

"So basically what I want to know, is everything on the home page true"
-Yes its all true - BUT
1) BSP isn't as simple or compatible as it could be, (altho I don't really like using it anyways) and
2) any model format other than *.x is not compatible with patch 4, 3ds, Md3 etc have been temporarily removed
3) Polygonal collisions and pixel perfect 2d collisions are not yet possible, but soon will be with any luck

Hope this helps. BTW if you download the demo you may find it to be very buggy. This isn't a fair comparision as the full product is far better when patched

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:01
Can you just give us an example of Power Render performance? (ie. polys / sec on your setup).

I don't think that DBP's multiplayer commands are as good as Torque, but it depends what you want to do with the game. Apart from MMORPGs, DBP's multiplayer library should be easily enough, if they are not, there is a TCP/UDT DLL available to extend DBP.

"I get the impression that that dbpro is really buggy!"
Yes, definately.

"And from other forums I glean that dbpro is way slow. "

No, definately not. CURRENTLY, with lots of objects on screen DBP slows down a lot, however the next patch to be released for DBP, Patch 4 (available in a week or two with luck ) Features a complete rewrite of the rendering pipeline, and having tested the beta version of the patch, I can confirm that it can handle huge numbers of objects on screen with little slowdown.

DBP's sprite commands are certainly very fast, as is the engine in general.

In a game environment, with lights, lots of objects, and physics / AI, I reckon on a GeForce 3 Ti200 / P4 1.6Ghz setup being able to get about 80FPS on average. On a BSP Quake 3 shooter game, this is about 140FPS. The only commands that are slow are some of the 2D ones: Get Image, Ink RGB, Set Text Size.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:28
Yup I'd agree w/ that

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Cyber_Sneak
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 02:04
"With many objects at once its very very slow, until you install Patch 4"
what is many objects? when is Patch 4 coming out?


" DBP is just a secondary (?) language that is then translated by the pc to C++"
DBP gets translated into C++? i assume u mean machine code or assembler


" I can confirm that it can handle huge numbers of objects on screen with little slowdown."
what exactly is huge numbers?


"Can you just give us an example of Power Render performance? (ie. polys / sec on your setup)"
PR can easily do (on a GeForce3) 100k polys (+terrain) at 60fps. It can do more if u use LOD, and even more if u have one of the latest cards (GeForce4). Plus (i think) the new PR5 beta has more speed optimizations.
On one PR demo (with stencil shadows, evironment mapping) u can get 400 fps.


how well does DBpro fair on computers that dont have the latest video cards?


"No thats not the main reason - the main reason is that this is a new product"
hm, i guess i disagree with you. for some reason, I just dont see any major game dev using DBPro instead of C/C++ to make a game. maybe l8ter on that will happen, but dbpro will REALLY have to prove itself somehow. (of course, the reason that DBPro hasnt proved itself is because its a new product...so I guess I kind of agree with u )




sorry for all the questions, and thx for the quick responces!

Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 08:55
what is many objects? - Around 1000

when is Patch 4 coming out? - In a week or two hopefully, we already have 90% betas

DBP gets translated into C++? i assume u mean machine code or assembler - Essentially yes - but I'm pretty sure its written in C++ so there fore BDCode -> C++ -> basic Assembler of some sort

what exactly is huge numbers? - Around 10,000

how well does DBpro fair on computers that dont have the latest video cards? - V well, so long as they are dedicated 3d cards. Otherwise you'll have problems

I just dont see any major game dev using DBPro instead of C/C++ - Umm lol wait a few months and I know of quite a few being released, many by largish companies to retail

thx - np

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
IanM
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 14:55
The DLL's in the plugins folder are written in C/C++, as is the compiler itself.

The code we write in DBPro (functions/maths etc) is translated directly to machine code.
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 15:16
"what is many objects? when is Patch 4 coming out?"

Between 1000 to 25000, depending on how ridiculous you are being

"DBP gets translated into C++? i assume u mean machine code or assembler"

DBP translates code into machine code. Machine code and assembler are the same thing - assembler is just a more intelligble way of writing assembler.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 15:19
DAMN - I meant "assembler is just a more intelligble way of writing machine code"


"PR can easily do (on a GeForce3) 100k polys (+terrain) at 60fps. It can do more if u use LOD, and even more if u have one of the latest cards (GeForce4). Plus (i think) the new PR5 beta has more speed optimizations.
On one PR demo (with stencil shadows, evironment mapping) u can get 400 fps."

On my GeForce 3 Ti200 I can get the equivilent of about 55FPS with 100K polys + terrain.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 15:20
when I say equivilent I mean in terms of the overal polycount per second.

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Cyber_Sneak
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 17:21
Woah! I'm impressed, guys!

" lol wait a few months and I know of quite a few being released, many by largish companies to retail"
C00L! do u know the names of the companies doing this?

Never thought any BASIC language would be able to do this!! Sw33t!

Kale
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 20:36
Quote: ""well everything that's advertised is true....BUT because of such and such reasons it actually works out differently""


yes! one word of warning, expect many many bugs.

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
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AMD XP2100+, Geforce4Ti 4400, 512Mb DDR, Abit KX7, WinXP Home
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 21:06
"lol wait a few months and I know of quite a few being released, many by largish companies to retail"

Personally I wasn't aware of any major DBP titles, can you tell me some names?

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 23:09
Kangaroo2Studio! Major publisher interest, signed non-disclosure agreement but you'll find out soon

Other than that personally I'm working with some budget publishers too, ya know the kind you get in petrol stations lol

I don't want to speak for others, but I know you'll all be hearing a lot in around 4-9 months time, 6 in my own case

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Cyber_Sneak
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 02:52
A few more things before I hit the BUY button

There are some features I really want and some that would just be cool. First the biggies (not in any particular order):

(i) Does DBPro support CG or dx9's HLSL? Or do you have to code shaders in assembler
(ii) Does the engine support vertex fogging? If not, how does fog work?
(iii) Networking--is it peer-to-peer or client/server based?
(iv) Does DBPro have a portal engine?
(v) Can you use per vertex coloring with DBPro?
(vi) What about Realtime stencil shadows and dx9 things like two sided stencil buffers
(vii) Does DBPro have dynamic lighting with directional, omni, spot, and lightmaps?
(viii) Can DBPro do realtime tessellation?

About the terrain engine:
(ix) Would the terrain engine allow the terrain to be deformed?
(x) On the home page, one of the screenshots shows the terrain with a bunch of soldiers or something walking across, however, the terrain doesnt seem to have detail texturing. Does the engine support this?
(xi) Realtime lighting on the terrain?
(xii) Is in-game heightfield editing possible?

And some other things that I think would be nice, but arent quite so important:

(xiii) Is there a way to directly control the D3D rendering states?
(xiv) Does the BSP loader load in all the shaders and does it support curves collision detection?
(xv) Does the DBPro support octree subdivision

And last, I have a few quick questions:

(xvi) How many passes, and up to how many textures per pass?
(xvii) I know DBPro supports bumpmapping, but is it Evironment bumpmapping or DOT3 bumpmapping, or both?
(xviii) Is the engine good enough to do Texel-lighting (using pixel shaders)? By that I mean could the engine run it reasonably well on a system with a GeForce4 and plenty of RAM.
(xix) What input devices does DBPro support? (mouse, keyboard, joystick, gamepad, wheels, light guns)



Few!! Thats lots of questions (all I can think of for now)! Thx for the responces I've received so far!

--CS

BoB Vila
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 03:38
That is a lot of questions. Unfortunatly I can't answer any of them.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
Cyber_Sneak
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 04:04
"That is a lot of questions. Unfortunatly I can't answer any of them."

LOL! :d anyone else know??

Neophyte
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 04:31
@Cyber_Sneak

"(i) Does DBPro support CG or dx9's HLSL? Or do you have to code shaders in assembler"

To use CG you normally have to link your program with the CG runtime in order to use the shaders. Although you can precompile CG into assembly it's generally not recommended because it then stores a precompiled version of each program for each profile. This, unfortunately, sacrifices the future optimizations that future compilers could offer. So to answer your question, yes, you could use CG but only in it's pre-compiled verison unless you wrote a dll to link your program to the CG runtime library(which I "think" is possible). HLSL i haven't really looked into although i assume its the same(maybe, I don't know.)

"(ii) Does the engine support vertex fogging? If not, how does fog work?"

In theory, yes. But i'm not sure.

"iii) Networking--is it peer-to-peer or client/server based?"

Both. You decide how you want to set it up.

"(iv) Does DBPro have a portal engine?"

Not to my knowledge, though i haven't really looked into the BSP/Portal issue so i could be wrong.

"(v) Can you use per vertex coloring with DBPro?"

Maybe. Although I don't know if there is a direct command for this, it probably could be done with shaders.

"(vi) What about Realtime stencil shadows and dx9 things like two sided stencil buffers"

Yes. I believe the command for stencil shadows is "SET SHADOW SHADING ON objectnumber" Two sided stencil buffers could probably done with shaders.

"(vii) Does DBPro have dynamic lighting with directional, omni, spot, and lightmaps?"

Yes. SET DIRECTIONAL LIGHT lightnumber, nx, ny, nz. For omni i think a regular MAKE LIGHT lightnumber would do(that should work though it might not because i haven't experiment with the light commands yet so i don't know for sure).SET SPOT LIGHT lightnumber, inner angle, outer angle.
Since lightmaps are just simple texture yes.

"(viii) Can DBPro do realtime tessellation?"

Although there is no specific command for this I think its possible to code this given the level of access that the 3d math commands provide.

"(ix) Would the terrain engine allow the terrain to be deformed?"

Not quickly, no. The terrain engine right now isn't that advanced because Mike and Lee are really busy optimizing the pipeline to improve speed. This while most likely change very soon w/patch 5 or 6 because many people have been asking for better terrain commands so its probably next on their priorty list.

"(x) On the home page, one of the screenshots shows the terrain with a bunch of soldiers or something walking across, however, the terrain doesnt seem to have detail texturing. Does the engine support this?"

What do you mean by "detail texturing"?

"(xi) Realtime lighting on the terrain?"

Absolutely.

"(xii) Is in-game heightfield editing possible?"

Not yet no.

"(xiii) Is there a way to directly control the D3D rendering states?"

No.

"(xiv) Does the BSP loader load in all the shaders and does it support curves collision detection?"

I don't know about the shaders, but i don't think curved surfaces are supported yet.

"(xv) Does the DBPro support octree subdivision"

I think it will be in latter patches or at least i hope so.

"(xvi) How many passes, and up to how many textures per pass?"

I think that is more of a hardware issue than an engine issue.

"(xvii) I know DBPro supports bumpmapping, but is it Evironment bumpmapping or DOT3 bumpmapping, or both?"

Both.

"(xviii) Is the engine good enough to do Texel-lighting (using pixel shaders)? By that I mean could the engine run it reasonably well on a system with a GeForce4 and plenty of RAM."

Absolutely.

"(xix) What input devices does DBPro support? (mouse, keyboard, joystick, gamepad, wheels, light guns)"

All directx8 compatible devices i think.(I don't know about light guns though.)

Phew! That was a lot of questions.

BoB Vila
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 06:13
Good Job Neo, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
IanM
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 14:23
"(iv) Does DBPro have a portal engine?"

Not natively,but UWDesign have produced a portal compiler and instructions on how to implement the engine on their site.

"(xix) What input devices does DBPro support? (mouse, keyboard, joystick, gamepad, wheels, light guns)"

I don't believe it supports light guns, but all of the others are supported.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 14:32
We support the USB Light Gun made by Act Labs (http://www.act-labs.com/gun1.htm) via a pluging DLL Lee wrote. It will be announced on the web site shortly and newsletter 3.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Rob K
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 22:18
""(xvii) I know DBPro supports bumpmapping, but is it Evironment bumpmapping or DOT3 bumpmapping, or both?""

I am pretty sure that it is environment bumpmapping.

"(x) On the home page, one of the screenshots shows the terrain with a bunch of soldiers or something walking across, however, the terrain doesnt seem to have detail texturing. Does the engine support this?"

The engine does support detail texturing - SET DETAIL MAPPING ON. However this cannot yet be applied to terrains or matrixes, only objects. However I believe that the 3D system is being modified so that such 3D effects can be applied to terrains and matrixes.

"(xiv) Does the BSP loader load in all the shaders and does it support curves collision detection?"

Neither shaders nor curves are supported in BSPs, assuming you mean Quake 3 Curved Surfaces - if you mean surfaces just made using cylinders and so on then yes.


"(xii) Is in-game heightfield editing possible?"

No, but you can use matrixes instead of terrains if you want that.
Terrain commands are due for an update later on and believe me, there is a lot of pressure from users on the RGT forums to add this.

"(iv) Does DBPro have a portal engine?"

No but you could probably fake it using multiple cameras (DBP can render camera output to textures which can then be applied to limbs on an object)

"(xix) What input devices does DBPro support? (mouse, keyboard, joystick, gamepad, wheels, light guns)"

It supports all of these (though I didn't know about the lightguns) - the force feedback support for wheels and other FF devices is pretty good as well

"(i) Does DBPro support CG or dx9's HLSL? Or do you have to code shaders in assembler"

Assembler coded shaders only at the moment. Maybe CG will be added if we ask nicely

Bear in mind the following though:

DBP is buggy and you will have to wait for all these features to function perfectly (P4 released soon should address a lot of these issues)

DBP does not allow access to DX9 directly, however DBP has excellent plugin support so you can propably code your own DLL if a feature you want is missing (with the exception of very low-level render features).

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
lcfcfan
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 22:57
Just buy it its cool with a lot of features and getting better all the time with new patches offering speed increases and new functions,

With it being updated all the time dark basic is fastly becoming a very good game and application development program,

Also you say there are not many really impressive games that have been developed in db pro yet thats just cos its new you will see some good stuff soon enough,

And finally don't listen to people on the forums that say db is no good you should try it your self to find out most of em i bet have never really spent enough time using it to see what a great program it is.

Sweet
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 12th Mar 2003 23:28
Icfcfan is right, despite having a net handle that the Dutch would cringe to pronounce.

Most of the 'bugs' on these forums are by relatively novice programmers still learning the system and going about things the wrong way, sure DB does have bugs, but it's not all that bad, i've barely come across a bug in all the time i've been using DBPro (I upgraded to Pro just before the first patch I think).

To give you an idea, check out my entry to the retro competition Jetpac (click the WWW button on my sig to get to the homepage) and then consider that it was written in 4 man days in DBPro yet it's a polished game - not world shattering, but come on... 4 days. In that time I didn't stumble across a single DBPro bug and yet that was the first time I had attempted a 2D game in DBPro and used the command sets.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
the architect
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 02:40
I'lle short and sweet.

DBPro has a fewbugs to iron out. True. But I have developed my own program and I have to say its took a few month work to perfect the parts that do use working commands.

BUY IT and learn. Then develope.

DARKGirl
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 16:55
Yea, it is a great program, jest get it...it can only get better.
BTW, I am Dutch and I can pronounce the handle jest fine.

“I create games only to test my imagination’s limits” - MSB

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