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Geek Culture / Indie Game Ratings

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 05:33
Well there ye go. :/

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 05:51
TIGRS is good, but I think it's lacking one thing - an overall rating.


I think that all of this information is very important, in addition to an overall rating. Like, a movie. It will be rated R, and it will tell you what elements specifically give it that rating.

If I give my game a rating, I'd probably use an ESRB rating (M or T) plus TIGRS. One single icon rating would be more eye catching and understandable than the other graphic.

In any event, I think that the American movie rating system is pretty effective in content and age considerations, for a model.

Jess T
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 07:09 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 07:17
I like this idea ( and tbh, TIGRS seems dodgy at best as it's all self-rated ), and would love to be a part of it (Even helping out with the web-design if need-be)

Here's some suggestions:

Once a game is rated, and has it's own little web-page, have a poll so others can vote on what the rating should be (if they disagree with its current status).
With 20 or more votes, you can submitt a 'review' of the rating to be re-rated.

I hate the idea of 'age' being a measure of maturity.
Since these games will all be 'indi' in nature ( ie, non-commercial, and non-widely distributed ), then who care's about the age groups? All we want to do is give it a Maturity rating ( look at people like Dakota Fanning, she's what? 10? and she's as mature as they come! ). None of this age stuff has ever been any good. Since it'll be the Parents determining if their kids download/buy a game with our rating system, then they can be the perfect judges of if they are 'mature' enough or not.
[EDIT for clarity]
I'm 18+, so I don't have to worry about any of the restrictions of purchasing any kind of media in Australia, but do still feel REALLY sh1tty about the whole, 14yo's can't see MA movies, yet they are allowed to work full-time. It seems to me that they just found an age where they *expect* people to be mature, and stuck that onto their rating regardless of if it actually meant anything for the average viewer/gamer.
[/EDIT]

A display system like TIGRS as a "further description" would be good (maybe only available on the website?), but for the primary rating display, a single icon/letter would suffice.

Maybe have icons that have numbers to represent severity at that level ( so, M1 would be Mature-Low, up to M3 which would be Mature-Adult, etc ). Colour-code the numbers, which also by-passes the colour-blind issue but provides a small amount of extra information for other viewers.

Someone mentioned that Australia doesn't allow M rated games, or something stupid to that effect... You're wrong. We have that XXX BMX game, Doom3, FEAR, GTA San Andreas, etc, etc, etc... All of which are easily rated M ( and if they're not, then the ESRB isn't worth the money ).

Don't charge ANY fees at all, not even for a re-rate.
Accept donations, and put in Google Ads if you really want to make a little bit of revenue, but don't charge.

First In, First Rated. Period. Any donations will not affect the speed of the Rating. If it did, it would simply be encouraging exactly what the ESRB does now.

If we're going to do this, we need to do it right. We need to get the system fully in working order, not a single thing on the website should be 'Coming Soon'. Then we need to fill out the database with every DB/P, PlayBasic, FPSC author we can muster, and make sure we *seem* established. Once we've done that, we need to contact the big places, like IndieGamer, IGN, GameDev, GamaSutra, etc, etc, etc with official emails ( no Forum Posts ), so that they can announce it all via their News Cast systems ( again, much more professional ).


Anyway, they're all just IMHO, so don't take it all to heart

Have fun, and don't hesitate to contact me for help with any aspect of it, as I'd like to be a part


[EDIT]
PS, Someone mentioned how there are standard ratings like PG, PG13, AO, etc... In Australia, we have P, PG, M, MA, R, which are obviously completely different, so don't rely on 'standard' ratings, as I honestly don't have the faintest idea what the difference between PG and PG13 is
[/EDIT]

Cheers,
Jess.

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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 07:28
Call me crazy but I just snapped up IGRB.ORG -- as it seems the most fitting and professional sounding. Hopefully everyone is okay with this

I agree with Jessticular, but we have to make sure that we only review FINISHED games. I will work on some backend tests tonight. So are there any other suggestions for rating titles/names/definitions?

Jess T
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 07:43 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 07:56
Good work, Jeku

Anyhoo, Be sure to contact me if you want any help

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 09:47
Hey, I am working on finishing up my failed TYTT entry, and when its done, you guys can put it up on your site with whatever rating you guys decide on (definitely the mildest, heh), a description, some screenshots, demo, and link to its home page. Seeing as how you guys wanna get your site out there right off the bat, it seems like it may be a nice place to advertise my game not to mention it helps you guys, that is if thats how it is going to work...

www.badpicsofmatt.tk
www.silver-dawn.net
Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 15:38
Okay then I'll start on a logo after I go see V for Vendetta, and if Megaton doesn't want to design the site's layout I'll do that.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 16:06
I'll give it a shot to I guess if Anime Blood happens to mysteriously die within the next 24 hours.

Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 16:18
My life feels so threatened.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 17:24
Why not both of you design? The most fabulous would win. And, if it's fabulous, I'll definitely use it.

Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 17:49

That's the logo so far. I'll probably implement it into the site design that I'm going to start later just in case a certain kitty doesn't kill me. <_<

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 17:54
I don't like the sound of "Independant gaming rating board". The two ".ing" endings sound clumsy.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 17:55 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 17:56
Nice & simple!

I guess I'll do some icons. (Like that "boobs" icon someone mentioned for games containing sexual content. )

edit: Yeah. gaming would sound better just changed to "game".

Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 18:16 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 18:20
Okay I'll change that then.



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Manticore Night
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 19:00 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 19:06
Quote: "I guess I'll do some icons."
Oh, ya Icons. I got a few done, but a full list of ones to make would help. I've got:
-Sex:

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 19:02 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 19:02
-Blood:

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 19:03 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 19:10
-Language:
I need to find a good color for the Icons though, any sugestions?

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 22:28
I think the background would be better suited as a monochrome personally. But other than that they're pretty good.

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cusoi
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 01:04 Edited at: 20th Mar 2006 01:05
I like this rating system, to be honest. I would like to help if there will be something like this in the future.

Jeku
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 19:15
Okay, I read up on the ESRB site more, and the raters are usually average everyday people who are NOT in the game industry. Their identities are not known, either. That is a good idea as they would be less desensitized to digital imagery, but is that even realistic for us?

Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 22:17
IGRB is a great title, but "Gaming Rating," as Curtis pointed out, sounds bad... maybe just Independent Games Rating Board?

Okay, we need to establish a council/ committee who will act as the heads for the group. In my opinion, we'll need a president, vice president, program director (responsible for keeping the ratings officials in check), general manager (keeps the group focused and directs the workflow), webmaster(s), a treasurer, PR/ Marketing director, Human Resources director (who will "hire" volunteer ratings officials), and we might want a lawyer or two because I'm sure somewhere down the line we might encounter some sort of legal fiasco.

Speaking of which, does IGRB sound too much like the ESRB? Would there be a conflict there?

I'm working on a charter right now. I'll post it in a few days after it's finished, probably on wednesday or something.

This is excellent. I'm glad I spoke up about this! I think this is going to turn into a pretty useful group for indie developers and consumers alike Provided everything works as planned, of course.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 22:26
Quote: ""Gaming Rating," as Curtis pointed out, sounds bad..."

Indeed, it's for rating the games, not the gaming.

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 22:32
And if you guys noticed I fixed that with a following post.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 22:49
I call President. ^_^

Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 00:33 Edited at: 21st Mar 2006 00:34
hehe, I'm sure that everyone would want to be president (except me, and I came up with the idea lol)... what are you qualifications?

I don't care where on the e-board I end up, as long as I'm in there somewhere Maybe general manager or program director or something, or perhaps human resources (that'd probably be the best bet). I'm pretty good at assembling people and organizing them to do stuff.

I think the president and vice president should be elected positions. We should hold a vote amongst all the members of the group, including the ratings officials, to decide who the president would be. These positions carry a great deal of responsibility so maybe we should place limitations and requirements on the president's position. Also, I think the first nominees should have a strong presence in the indie game community... people who have put out a number of games and have had some degree of success in the industry. I dunno, these are just my opinions... what do you guys think?


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 00:49
I never finished any of my games either. I'll be vice-president then.

(But I do play alot)

Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 00:56
Quote: " And if you guys noticed I fixed that with a following post."

Yeeessh I was just pointing out the difference in meaning. Because I felt like it.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 02:32 Edited at: 21st Mar 2006 02:35
Quote: "the raters are usually average everyday people who are NOT in the game industry. Their identities are not known, either.... That is a good idea as they would be less desensitized to digital imagery, but is that even realistic for us?"

Good, but not realistic. They're able to do so because they generate revenue. The only way that something like this could generate revenue is through advertising. That's quite possible, but not at first. Lots of games will need to be done.

I think that the summary page for every game is a good idea. That will generate more hits at the site.


Quote: "In my opinion, we'll need a president, vice president, program director (responsible for keeping the ratings officials in check), general manager (keeps the group focused and directs the workflow), webmaster(s), a treasurer, PR/ Marketing director, Human Resources director (who will "hire" volunteer ratings officials), and we might want a lawyer or two because I'm sure somewhere down the line we might encounter some sort of legal fiasco."

Umm... you're getting too far ahead of yourself. Being independant, formal structure probably wouldn't be the best. I suspect that a council, of say.... 4 (picked arbitrarily) would consist of several members, each of which that had an additional duty.
For example - Webmaster, web designer, public relations, and graphic designer.
Each person would have real responsibilities. Primary positions could still be granted to these people, but overloading the heirarcy would be unwise.
Human relations? Lawyers? Only if real money is involved. At this point, that's simply not a concern. It sounds like you're trying to start up an MMORPG by selecting the Minister of Finance before you start coding.

Quote: "Speaking of which, does IGRB sound too much like the ESRB? Would there be a conflict there?"


No. Not unless you steal their graphics or ratings.

This whole thing could be great. Ratings could be done, and game independant game reviews could be done. The way to make the thing profitable is to create a site that will generate traffic. TIGRS is a nice idea, but it's incomplete and ineffective.

Saikoro
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 02:41
Don't mean to butt in, but this is a really great thing you guys have going here, and I'd be willing to help in any way possible. Starting with telling AnimeBlood that its IndependEnt, not IndependAnt.

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 02:47
>_<

Damnit. Well please cut me some slack I'm sick. Won't you please. Pretty please? Okay well I'll fix that too.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 21:30 Edited at: 21st Mar 2006 21:31
I think having structure right off the bat is very important. I've started a number of projects in my day, including games, bands, radio shows, movies (no, not Hollywood-grade lol), and even our annual massive water gun fight (yeah, 26 and still playing with toys, %#%$@-ing sue me ), and one thing I've definitely learned is that structure is extremely important and better off established from the get-go. Human resources would just be responsible for bringing in (and helping to organize) the ratings officials, who are the backbone of the organization. He or she would be responsible for researching the indie industry and figuring out how many ratings officials we'd actually need, based on the number of indie games released on average per an alotted time frame. Finding a lawyer to volunteer his or her time can prove important as well. What if we decide to place our board members on a contract or something? Or what if someone sues us early on for giving them a harsh rating? I think a lawyer would definitely come in handy, although I'm sure we all hope we wouldn't need one. As for the executive positions, it's all just structuring. I stole the Program Director and General Manager positions from WHRW, my former college radio station wherein I created a new music department from scratch. That's where most of this organizational stuff comes from... learning from the mistakes I made there at the time while creating the Radio Theatre Department. But like I said, if we don't really need these positions, and it's agreed by most of us, then we can try it without them... but I think it would be a mistake, because without proper organization this thing will be doomed to fail.

As for the charter, which will be a collection of rules and organizational stuff, I've laid out a structural document and detailed a few various aspects of it, but most of it can't be finished until we agree on a formal structure and we discuss some more rules and whatnot. What general ethics should our board observe when reviewing games and otherwise dealing with independent studios? Also, how will we take donations? Paypal or some other method? And who will have access to those donations? I think they should be handled by one trustworthy individual who has some sort of background in auditing or accounting, someone who can responsibly deal with allocating funds properly and paying out money to those who deserve/ need it. Any funds, albeit a small or large amount, should be handled properly and this is a very important position to consider.


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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 00:39 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 00:42
But since most of us don't have extra money to throw at a non-profit organization, and probably none of us know any angel investors, we can't afford to have lawyers. I believe we need only a few raters for the time being, and if we get to a point where our load starts ramping up then we can adjust things as needed.

EDIT:

And yes, we should also have a treasurer and a group leader, etc. But everyone would be volunteer.

Manticore Night
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 00:58
So is anyone going to give me a list of icons to make or what? Or should I just start drawing random things on the background. Ex: WARNING: THIS GAME CONTAINS MONKIES!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:49 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 02:52
Finding a lawyer to volunteer is hard, but I think it can be done. Why don't we just look around and see what we can come up with, and if we can't find someone who believes in our "cause," we'll just scratch it until we need one. But I still think we need more structure than this... this isn't a game project, it's a serious business-like organization, and without proper structuring it could fall apart pretty easily.

About the icons: We should start seriously discussing content icons so Manticore's head doesn't explode Here's a few:

Mild Violence
Moderate Violence
Strong Violence
Graphic Violence
Sexual Themes
Strong Sexual Content
Brief Nudity
Nudity
Graphic Nudity
Drug/ Alchohol Use
Racism/ Sexism (the other -isms... are they necessary? Would they be purposeful?)
Comic Mischief
Potty Humor (Humour in the UK)

What am I leaving out?

edit:
Mild Language (damn, hell, etc.)
Moderate Language (female dog, dung, etc.)
Strong Language ("fornicate under command of the king", rooster, kitty, etc.)

^ man, I'm good at censoring myself


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Saikoro
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 03:05
Potty humour? There's probably a better word for that one

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 04:05 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 04:13
That's a big list. Well, I was trying to figure out how to differentiate between Mild Violence and Moderate Violence. And I noticed that it would probably be better if instead of having different levels of violence(or nudity, language). We should have like a color code for each thing, like:
-Green: Mild
-Yellow: Moderate
-Red: Extreme

Because how would you draw extreme violence without getting about ten thousand letter from parents about how you are scaring their childrens minds with your bloody filth? You should be ashamed!

Edit:
Here are some backgrounds with the color sceme and no Icon just yet.




edit again: hehe looks like traffic lights

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 04:37
I like that, but I think the black stripes might offset the colors in the actual icons... but maybe not. I think also they should say "violence" or whatever the content is, because let's face it, some people aren't bright enough to look at a picture and figure stuff out (sad but true).

I spent a few minutes trying to think of an alternative to "potty humor" but I can't come up with anything


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Saikoro
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 05:02 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 05:07
Might I suggest sticking with words on the backgrounds rather than what looks to be two circles or a blot of ketchup? That way its more clear what exactly the rating entails.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see that post up there

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 06:50
Rather than "potty humor", try "suggestive humor". That can encompass any kind of humor that is PG-13 - potty humor, sexual innuendo, sexual jokes. Potty humor sounds very childish.

And "comic mischief"? I don't think that one is very useful. Is that like people throwing eggs at each other? Dancing around in their underwear? Just too ambiguous.

On TIGRS I saw "genocide", which I thought was interesting, and worthy of a category. I thought about it, and genocide actually takes place in a lot of games. Starcraft, for example. The goal was to wipe out the other two races, to the last one. Just something to think about...

Saikoro
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 07:04
I think comic mischeif is more or less suggesting things that may not be necessarily decent, proper, or good for children of the expressively anal.

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Jess T
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 12:34
Adding to the 'Formal/Informal' planning debate...

It's definatly good to have structure, but be careful when delegating 'assignments' ( positions ), as it can begin to feel like a forced situation very very quickly... And since we're volunteering, we can just as easily leave, then the whole thing goes to the dogs

It's all down to making the volunteers feel like they're a part of it doing what they want to do...

Having said that, however, we can't just let everyone run willy-nilly, and have people dropping and entering like flies and refugees respectively

*Shrug* Just food for thought.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 22:48
Well I have free time every day that I am more or less just browsing forums and playing games, so if theres any position thats available, or even if someone drops out, go ahead and let me know. You can talk to me on MSN if you want to know more about me, job specific skills and whatnot.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 00:28
I think the e-board positions should be paid, or maybe those members should earn some sort of stipend. It wouldn't be much (pennies on the dollar probably) but it might make the role feel important enough to said member that he or she wouldn't walk. But I dunno... that's based on my radio station experience so it may be different. At the station, we paid tiny stipends to people on the basis that if they randomly quit they'd stop getting those stipends and wouldn't be allowed to take their old position back if they changed their mind. Maybe that would work in this case, but then again, maybe it wouldn't.

So what positions do you guys think are the most important? If we do this structured, what positions would we toss and which would we keep?


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Cian Rice
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 02:36
Well the layout I have done a bit of work on so far could be finished if I just know this one thing, will the page have some formd of ads (ala GoogleADS) I need to know so I can arrange everything.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:28
@ Anime: Can you send me a high-resolution copy of our logo that would neatly fit into an 8x11 text document? As a bitmap preferably? I'm going to make the charter somewhat pretty and save it as a PDF so I can use some of our fonts.


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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:29
I don't think it should serve ads, as that will make it look more like a way to make money than a real organization.

Saikoro
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:32
But maybe a Paypal donation link would be good still...

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Matt Rock
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Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:53
I'm with Jeku there. We should stick to donations and maybe some very specific service charges (like charging a small fee for a re-rating by the e-board or posting the wrong ratings).

Another note: This is probably a no-brainer but I think the developers who use our ratings system should be registered with us. The registration would be free and would allow us to easily organize the developers and the titles they've released. It would benefit the developers as well... on the game pages, we could say something to the effect of "see also" or "other games by (developer)" -- I'm sure there's other uses, too.


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:59
Good idea, Matt. I don't know if this leans towards being too much like the "pay us and we'll do you first" system of ESRB, but maybe those who submit more games to us can be featured in a list of people who submits the most games, as some sort of free publicity. That way you get more people wanting to be rated, more traffic, and more authenticity of the service.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:01
I like that idea... they aren't paying for anything really, they're just distributing the most games. But should we only show more children-friendly releases so as to avoid our site from looking too gruesome or something?


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos

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