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Geek Culture / windows vista, its neat

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 21:01
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Those MS employees should be fired with no severance for crying on a public blog. If they hate their jobs so much they should quit. Seriously, I don't see how an OS can be so important in someone's life


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 21:25
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Quote: "I care! I'd love to navigate through a sexy looking OS, can't wait for the future! I honestly have no idea how you guys can stand that boring old classic mode, you're all so bland."


Go on the internet, download windowblinds and use your computer normally. Windows can take up to four times as long to load, meaning you have to wait a few seconds whilst it throws your c drive at you. The standard theme is about one second more per op.


At least farting ferrets are better than stinky stoats.
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 22:38
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Quote: "And you still think a buisness would run a Microsoft OS if it had a backdoor ?"


The general public doesn't know about it. And like I said, they have no other choice. Bow down to microsoft or die in the business version of "survival of the fitess."

Quote: "The backdoor thing definately is true. It was in a security article a while back (an appeared on slashdot if I remember). Its an encrypted port that can only be accessed via special high-security connection."


Thank You!

Quote: "whats to say some hacker genius cant hack through the backdoor? "


Very true, I'm sure it's been done. Actually it's called spyware... lol jk.

Quote: "For the love of...there IS NO (intentional) backdoor in Windows. Hidden, encrypted or otherwise. "


Noob. Or should I say blind to reality noob. Nothing personal, but seriously. You've been sheltered way to much. The wool is being pulled over your eyes. Computers are a threat, if you think the government is going to sit back and leave them without a backdoor to get into then you have another thing coming my friend!

Quote: "http://news.com.com/Microsoft+Vista+wont+get+a+backdoor/2100-1016_3-6046016.html"


Cover up. Why would they annouce that they're putting in a backdoor? And if it's brought up and they are interviewed obviously their going to deny it. Other wise their cover is blown. Open your eyes dude, your so naive! Your being dupped, your having the wool pulled over your eyes.
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Killswitch
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 22:49
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Look at my join date - Wed Oct 2nd 2002, what's yours? Sun Jul 10th 2005 . If you dare call me a Noob again I swear down you'll be flamed every single time I see you post.

The backdoor story is anti-microsoft propoganda spread by Linux fanboys. Sure I wouldn't be surprised if someone suggested Microsoft should put one in, even from the government. But they haven't, wouldn't and won't!

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 22:52
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Funny how you both talk as if you know Bill Gates on a first name basis. Obviously neither of you know absolutely anything about the Windows source code so there's no point in arguing a moot point.


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Killswitch
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 22:59
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You're right, I don't have access to Windows' source. I do, however, have access to the news:

http://www.crime-research.org/news/18.01.2006/1765/
http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_No_Backdoor_In_Vista_Ever/1141677085
http://www.sysinternals.com/Blog/
http://bink.nu/Article5873.bink

I was just pretty damn offended to be called a noob when I've been a member of these forums longer than - at least one - mod.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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Raven
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 23:03
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Quote: "The backdoor thing definately is true. It was in a security article a while back (an appeared on slashdot if I remember)."


Ahh. Slashdot that internet basitian of wholesome unbias factual news reporting... oh wait not that's Routers.

The Backdoor thing is true; and you know why it's true. Becuase there's often a backdoor in every damn OS. You know what they're called?

Trojans. (morons)

Quote: "Those MS employees should be fired with no severance for crying on a public blog. If they hate their jobs so much they should quit. Seriously, I don't see how an OS can be so important in someone's life"


I can guarentee you if that blog was real, they'd have been fired by the time they'd normally have to clock out. Seriously, they broke their ECC and NDA a good handful of times in the paragraphs I saw. To Microsoft that's almost like bloody treason.
Not that I think it's a real MS Employee Blog as most of theirs are actually housed on http://blogs.microsoft.com

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Killswitch
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 23:10
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Quote: "The Backdoor thing is true; and you know why it's true. Becuase there's often a backdoor in every damn OS. You know what they're called?"


There's a big difference between and intentional backdoor hardcoded into an OS, and a vunerability created by malicious code implanted on a machine.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 23:21 Edited at: 27th Mar 2006 23:21
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double post, whoops, its a conspiracy, i know, apollo's out to get me

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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 23:21 Edited at: 27th Mar 2006 23:22
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Quote: "Cover up. Why would they annouce that they're putting in a backdoor? And if it's brought up and they are interviewed obviously their going to deny it. Other wise their cover is blown. Open your eyes dude, your so naive! Your being dupped, your having the wool pulled over your eyes."
wow, ok, look here, i live in america, and i guarantee you that if by any little insane twist of reality that microsoft bows to the U.S. government and puts in a "secret" back door, that some teenage genius hacker out there with no life will at the very least sometime discover it, and then our over-exgaterative media will have this story of a major governemnt conspriacy and failed cover-up accross the face of the globe before the government can get off their @$$es to realize there is a problem. Thats what i love about our media here in america, they can blow little things out of porportion, but every once in a while an important story comes along that needs to be let out and thats what theyre good at. and secondly, i couldn't give a $h!7 if the government wants to look at what ive been doing, go ahead, i dont have anything to hide, and if i do, it'll be on a computer not connected to the internet

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Mar 2006 23:24
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Anyhoo - the really important question still hasn't been answered : Does DBPro work with Vista ?

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 01:47
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DBPro works fine on Vista.. obviously requires you to get drivers off Nvidia/ATI beforehand - unfortunately, since they're a tad bit behind (don't think they're releasing until beta 2 - which isn't actually released yet, these recent builds have been technology previews) it'll mean that you'd lose the nice aero theme

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 01:58
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Killswitch - omg, i could almost wet myself if you weren't such a noob. By the way I've been here longer than that. I've gone by many other names.

Jeku - and you know what the source code of windows looks like how?

But all in all your right Jeku. This topic really doesn't matter. I can't change how anyone thinks here, I just know what I think. Part of the dark art of debating is doing is civilily. I do confess that not everything I've said here as followed those guidelines. So I'm leaving this topic for dead, and I'm sure Phaelax doesn't want his harmless Vista thread to be locked

Alright guys, I've had fun...

Sort of
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 02:20
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oh, givin up??? i see how it is! **moons sid**

j/k man, alright, i'll leave his thread alone too

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Milkman
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 02:22
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Is it only me, or does anyone else remember Leo saying something about the windows source being leaked back during the good old days of the Screen Savers?


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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 02:25
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oh oh, i think i actually remember him sayin that

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Milkman
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 02:28 Edited at: 28th Mar 2006 02:43
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found the windows source!

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/source.php

but seriously, i remember Leo saying that...

edit: seems some MS code was leaked...
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/71552/7795


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Saikoro
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 06:33
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While I hardly see how TGC forum join date has anything to do with being a noob or not, there really shouldn't be any name calling like that amongst mature people in a serious conversation.

Now on a lighter note, who cares if there's a backdoor? It'll probably be bugged anyway.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 14:23
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if you have something on your computer that will get you aressted, then you deserve to be caught, IMO

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John Y
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 14:50
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I've come to the conclusion that Windows Vista sucks. Well, thats too harsh, but I wouldn't call it a rewrite. The code is based on Windows 2003 Sp3, and it still looks like it in many aspects. All they have done is extract metadata and populate a couple of labels in most displays.

I was expecting to be much more amazed that what I am, I could do most of the looks with a skin. The appearance isn't that amazing either, considering I have a top spec computer, the AERO system isn't really that impressive. In fact, have translucent windows is counter productive, it makes everything look untidy with it's constant blurring of windows underneath.

Again, on a high spec computer the performance is the same as XP, possibly slower. The constant monitor flickers and changing of security modes on startup is also annoying. I get to see 3 different wallpapers while the system is logging in.

Also annoying is the 'new' startmenu, which isn't new. It defaults to the search textfield when you open the start menu. Meaning you can't navigate the start menu using the keyboard. The startmenu then doesn't have any kind of pop up menu functionality, instead you have to browse through your computers files confined in a tiny panel, where XP puts your recent programs.

My review is mostly negative , but if Microsoft sort out this problems which I admit, most of them will be, then Vista will be cool. I doubt I will run down PC World, and splash out my hard earned £300 though.


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Raven
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 16:28
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Quote: "I've come to the conclusion that Windows Vista sucks. Well, thats too harsh, but I wouldn't call it a rewrite. The code is based on Windows 2003 Sp3, and it still looks like it in many aspects."


Can assure you that the Windows Kernel and Core Libraries are now complete rewrites. It never has been based on Windows 2003 (5.2) Source; in-fact the initial alpha builds were Windows XP (5.1) based. Ironically most things that Vista runs originally ran under Windows XP than they did under Vista. heh

Personally I think it's a step in the right direction, especially given the OS is (finally!) going to be converted to .NET like originally planned. This is the reason they've pushed it back according to the MS Grapevine. All of the libraries are being rewritten again to use .NET, given 2.0 is now stable enough for it.

No doubt this follows the recent accouncement that MacOSX86 isn't going to be released August '06 like originally suggested but actually is being released (atleast in Europe) Late-April. Businesses can already send off orders.

Funny watching Microsoft scramble to try and get everything so they remain top-dog. Just wonder what will happen when the first Linux .NET hits the internet.

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hyrichter
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 17:28
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Raven, where are you reading that Vista will be converted to .net? I'm seeing exactly the opposite. Any links to support your claims?
http://www.grimes.demon.co.uk/dotnet/vistaAndDotnet.htm

Quote: "It never has been based on Windows 2003 (5.2) Source"

From teh above link I posted:

Quote: "After PDC03 Longhorn there was a huge upheaval in the Longhorn team. WinFS was clearly processor hungry, and since so many Longhorn processes depended on it (the search mechanism, and Outlook Express are two obvious ones) this meant that even the most powerful machines found it difficult to run the operating system. To solve this issue Microsoft decided to re-engineer Longhorn. The first thing they did was to base Longhorn on the Windows 2003 Server Service Pack 1 codebase. Then they removed WinFS4. PDC03LH was based on the Windows XP SP1 codebase, so you can see that Vista is not a direct descendant of PDC03LH."


I'm not bashing .net -- it has it's place and it has many nice features. Until I see Vista giving us some real features and solving problems instead of making new ones, I'll happily stay with XP. I'm sure eventually I upgrade, but it won't be the day Vista hits the market.


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Killswitch
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 19:16
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Windows Vista was originaly based on the Windows XP codebase, but it got switched early on when development on Longhorn (as it was then) as scrapped and started again. Microsoft always use the last major release of Windows (2003) as the codebase for the next version.

Not only that but Vista isn't .NET. It was going to be, but they scrapped that as well and HAVEN'T switched it back.

~Heed my word hobags: Jism~
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John Y
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Posted: 28th Mar 2006 20:03 Edited at: 28th Mar 2006 20:08
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Raven,

All the answers you need are right here http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/vista.asp

Note the part about Windows 2003


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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Mar 2006 02:55
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Quote: "Jeku - and you know what the source code of windows looks like how?"


No, and I didn't claim that I did. You two were the ones crying about whether the backdoors theory is true, not me.

Quote: "I've come to the conclusion that Windows Vista sucks."


That is quite unfortunate that you could come to that conclusion what-- a year before the OS is released?

I would be sad if you saw an alpha of my current game and said it sucks--- even though it's just an alpha.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 29th Mar 2006 03:22
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Quote: " "I've come to the conclusion that Windows Vista sucks.""

I'm wth Jeku with this one. And, I won't get involved with the new OS right now, because I know I'll hate it. A year is plenty of time for that multi-billion dollar monster known as Microsoft to hammer out the bugs and make all of the code original. I'm sure it will be okay. Similar things are said with every new release. Hopefully they work out some of the fundamental flaws of windows that have plagued it since Windows 95.


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Phaelax
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Posted: 29th Mar 2006 03:28
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Vista is still in beta version, so I won't say it sucks.....yet. But I agree with others' viewports, until I see it offer something new and better, i'll happily stick to 2000.


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dab
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Posted: 29th Mar 2006 04:22
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If you think that XP is good, even with classic view enbled. Run XP in safe mode. That just shoes how much ram they're really hogging with all that foo-dad. Though I like it. So I guess I'm not really complaining, just bringing to a point that Vista will probably be twice as bad. But I've never tried it, so I have no room to talk.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 29th Mar 2006 06:06
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With the fresh install of Vista, without anything else loaded, it used somewhere between 400-500mb of ram according to task manager. Over 30 processes running.


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John Y
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Posted: 29th Mar 2006 09:36
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Quote: "That is quite unfortunate that you could come to that conclusion what-- a year before the OS is released?

I would be sad if you saw an alpha of my current game and said it sucks--- even though it's just an alpha."


I said it was a bit harsh, also they only have 7 months until November, when it will be rolled out to corporations. It's also not alpha, it's beta 1 I am using. Design shouldn't change, only the stability.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 30th Mar 2006 03:49
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Quote: "With the fresh install of Vista, without anything else loaded, it used somewhere between 400-500mb of ram according to task manager. Over 30 processes running."


Are you serious? This means my 512MB of RAM won't cut it... Damn... I was ok with the "good looks" of XP and Vista but now I'm not to sure. Thats just obscene!
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re faze
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Posted: 30th Mar 2006 04:34
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Quote: "Over 30 processes running."

wholly unnescessary.

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!
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hyrichter
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Posted: 30th Mar 2006 05:19
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The 30 processes isn't that bad. Windows XP with a fresh install has about 20 doesn't it? But the 400mb is totally ridiculous.


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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 30th Mar 2006 05:34
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from what ive heard thus far, is that vista doesnt give the average joe schmo consumer a reason to upgrade from xp besides some fancy new looks that can somewhat be attained on xp already...

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re faze
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Posted: 30th Mar 2006 05:51
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my main question is , since the desktop is rendered, will dds become mainstream?

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!
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John Y
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Posted: 30th Mar 2006 09:32
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I tried 512MB, and it's just about enough to run Windows at a nice speed, don't expect to run any applications on top though

1Gb makes Windows move nicely, and running applications such as IE and DBPRO on top is fine.

2Gb, Windows didn't get any faster, but the applications were more responsive.

I recommend that if you want Vista, get yourself 1Gb RAM, or start looking into what services you need


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re faze
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Posted: 31st Mar 2006 22:14
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you shouldnt need 512 mb, just to run the os. that's bullocks. an os shouldnt need more than 64 at the max, the rest is due to either low effiency or too many of those annoying shiney themes. did you turn off the themes service and see how apps respond? I have a pc with the beta running at my school, but I cant bring it home... I could steal the dvd but....

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 31st Mar 2006 22:32 Edited at: 31st Mar 2006 22:45
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Quote: "
from what ive heard thus far, is that vista doesnt give the average joe schmo consumer a reason to upgrade from xp besides some fancy new looks that can somewhat be attained on xp already...
"

Indeed, but does XP offer much over 2000? I think MS will get most of their sales from new PCs and it would make sense to install a newer version over the older one. Worries over compatibility will fade just like it did with XP.
I think Vista will appeal to home users, or at least Microsoft will make the users think that . It's things like the Windows Defender that will be a big selling point, as now they can offer it as part of the operating system (another feature to add to the list) instead of a seperate utility, AntiSpyware.
Quote: "wholly unnescessary."

I disagree - processes mean NOTHING. NOTHING at all. If each part of the shell was a process (OK, it's a bad example, but stick with it) you'd end up with say 20. Does that mean that it's using 20x many resources as explorer.exe alone? No. A process can be anything. If anything, more processes allow for more flexibility.
Quote: "you shouldnt need 512 mb, just to run the os. that's bullocks. "

I disagree - People don't really consider buying pcs with under 512mb ram now. I find that I use 9/10 of the services that are installed, so I'm not in a position to think about disabling services really. My vista installation uses under 300mb which is less than my near-clean XP installation.

Quote: "
an os shouldnt need more than 64 at the max.
"

It's designed to be user-friendly, not to squeeze as much in to as little resources as possible. If you're looking for this, don't use windows! Simple as...

Quote: ", the rest is due to either low effiency or too many of those annoying shiney themes. did you turn off the themes service and see how apps respond?"

No noticable difference what-so-ever for me. Anyway, I like my lil shiney themes. I get bored with a crap theme.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 31st Mar 2006 23:59
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Quote: "my main question is , since the desktop is rendered, will dds become mainstream?"


Then the RAM usage would soley depend on graphics card right? So the better the graphics card the less RAM needed to render the desktop right?

Also when I'm playing games I ususally exit out of explorer.exe, it does wonders when playing extremely graphics intense games, in my opinion at least. I also find that every's computer is different, even if the same hardware is in it. They take on a personality. For some exiting explorer.exe might not do a thing, others it may... weird huh?
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CJB
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 00:52
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I think the backdoor issue is probably true... and has probably been true for many previous windows versions also. When people say 'but some hacker geek would exploit it' I think to myself that is exactly what has been going on for years (what do you think viruses are, or trojans or worms or whatever else you want to call 'em), and every now and then, a security patch comes along to 'fix' the problem (but there always seems to be another way in doesn't there! - Coincidence? I don't think so).

Just recently I did a full scan and found all sorts of nasty stuff on my system - including a 'Rootkit'! Now that opens up a whole new can of worms doesn't it!

Anyway, from what I have seen of Vista (eg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3679245191427790563&q=windows+vista&pl=true
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6219108055179715875&q=windows+vista&pl=true

It all looks very nice, but I can't help thinking the whole thing is just a bit 'gimmicky'. I mean, why do we need the screens to go all '3d' when we alt-tab? I just looks like each window is running on a direct3d surface!

I've never been that happy with Windows. It's ALWAYS caused problems for me.
I have experimented with some Linux distros, but have found those to be worse (although Ubuntu looked quite good and stable). Can anyone recommend a good (free) linux distro? - Also, has 'WINE' got anywhere yet?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 00:56
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There are no good distro's really - although hopefully by the time Vista comes out they will be suitable for home use.

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 01:17 Edited at: 1st Apr 2006 01:18
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Well, that's it really... you can only criticize it if you can find a better alternative. Most people I've met aren't prepared to switch entirely from a Windows platform to Linux or similar.
Quote: "It all looks very nice, but I can't help thinking the whole thing is just a bit 'gimmicky'. I mean, why do we need the screens to go all '3d' when we alt-tab? I just looks like each window is running on a direct3d surface!"

It's quite handy, but I prefer the XP powertoy that you could download that gave you a preview of the window. I do think that the Win key & Tab feature is just there for show.

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Killswitch
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Location: School damnit!! Let me go!! PLEASE!!!
Posted: 1st Apr 2006 01:19
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I'd like to see a comparison between between just how much RAM each version of Windows uses compared to the average amount of RAM new computers came with at the time. I wonder if the ratio (Required/Avaliable) actually increases that much over the years?

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empty
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 01:46
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Quote: "you can only criticize it if you can find a better alternative."

No, that is a terrible concept which would result in stagnation.
Plus, lots of people are forced to use computers (at work for example) and a great deal of them is forced to use a certain operating system (at work for example).


Play Nice! Play Basic!
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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 02:06 Edited at: 1st Apr 2006 02:17
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Quote: "Quote: "you can only criticize it if you can find a better alternative."
No, that is a terrible concept which would result in stagnation.
Plus, lots of people are forced to use computers (at work for example) and a great deal of them is forced to use a certain operating system (at work for example)."



Not sure how it'd cause stagnation but I can see your view; allow me to reword it then. The point I was trying to make is that You can only criticize it if you CHOOSE to use an alternative. If this 'crap OS' is really so crap, why not use something else. Nothing is forcing you to make a personal choice of using it.
The thing that gets on my nerves are the people who criticize it so much yet they continue using it out of own free will. If it really bothers you that much, you don't HAVE to use it.

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Chenak
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 04:32
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You would HAVE to use Vista, just as now we have to use windows XP. There is no two ways about it (unless microsoft go bankrupt somehow). Eventually developers won't bother to make products compatible with xp just as they are not bothering to make things compatible with win2k and below.

Sure you COULD go for an alternative, but it means you can't use dbpro, can't use 80% of modernish games (without emulation... which sucks) and you can't use quite a lot of software. There are some free alternatives for software but a lot of them are just bad.

I agree that 512mb ram usage is rediculous. What happened to the days where developers would squeeze as much power as possible into 16mb ram? Easy answer, they are bloody lazy.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 11:29
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I certainly hope DDS does NOT become mainstream. Huge sizes, blocky compression and low colour amounts are my pet hates.


At least farting ferrets are better than stinky stoats.
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John Y
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 11:52
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A picture of the memory usage my copy of Vista is using running under 1Gb Ram, with no other applications running.


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Http://omegabasic.thegamecreators.com

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 12:10
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What is using 100% of your CPU? 531MB is still WAY too much. To quote Bill Gates, something like
Quote: "Who needs more than 640k?"



At least farting ferrets are better than stinky stoats.
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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 1st Apr 2006 13:02 Edited at: 1st Apr 2006 13:08
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Quote: "You would HAVE to use Vista, just as now we have to use windows XP. There is no two ways about it (unless microsoft go bankrupt somehow). Eventually developers won't bother to make products compatible with xp just as they are not bothering to make things compatible with win2k and below."

You don't need to use Windows XP. I know people who don't own Windows XP, and they still actively use computers. You could use Mac OS, Linux, FreeBSD. Hell, you can get hardware that ONLY works with Linux!
Quote: "
Sure you COULD go for an alternative, but it means you can't use dbpro, can't use 80% of modernish games (without emulation... which sucks) and you can't use quite a lot of software. There are some free alternatives for software but a lot of them are just bad."

I agree, I use Windows for the software and the fact that it's so damn easy to do stuff in. I find managing a linux machine a lot more difficult and the pain for finding alternative software for my archive. But, that's my own personal decision. I could very well go through all that bother of doing this but I chose to stick with windows and I don't think i'd have decent grouds to complain on - since their product is the best in my situation. Maybe when someone makes something better I'll join the hordes of people complaining.

You could use WINE. But I understand what you mean. Face it, there's alternatives for software as well. Look at it like this, you can't use dedicated linux or mac applications on Windows machine without running it through some sort of emulation. Same applies. Like I say, you don't need to use the operating system if you don't like it - (obviously like above, work permitted - if you work at home etc).
Quote: "
I agree that 512mb ram usage is rediculous. What happened to the days where developers would squeeze as much power as possible into 16mb ram? Easy answer, they are bloody lazy."

Someone posted about the ratio. I doubt that PCs will be sold with under 1gb of RAM when Vista is released. 2gb maybe! I don't think RAM will be an issue at all. And no, I don't think it's being bloody lazy. They could very well go through a huge process of trying to squeeze down the resources but that'd take time, and time = money. If it'd mean that some of the feature are lost, I'd be very happy to stick with my 500mb RAM usage.
Remember that Vista is currently BETA and the version that is available on Microsoft Connect is currently only the 'Ultimate' version - it's got pretty much everything in it. We shouldn't really be complaining about how much disk space/RAM it's using because hell, we don't really know what it's going to be using in the end. It could be much less or much more - you just don't know. I think it'd be better to start complaining about it when the RCs are available.

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