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Geek Culture / I was just hunting UFOs, says Pentagon's UK hacker

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soapyfish
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 02:14
Thought this deserved a *chuckle* and was quite interesting at the same time.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060427/sc_nm/security_britain_hacker_dc_1




p.s. It'd be good to try and keep this thread political and religion free.

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Fallout
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 02:27 Edited at: 28th Apr 2006 02:29
Yeah, apparently a lot of high security US government systems were using windows with a blank password. So no hacking or cracking really. He just ran some script that checked a bunch of IPs for logins with no passwords and apparently there were loads. Easy business.

Edit: Oh yeah, and the damage $170k or $700k or whatever was calculated based on $2k for every machine he accessed or similar. So they made the assumption that every machine to logged into he totally destroyed. Priceless. If you've got egg on your face, what do you do? Blow it out of all proportion to cover the fact you're a bunch of retards.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 02:55
The things he found on those computers are pretty wierd. I think that he could lie, but what would be the point of lying. So presuming he saw those UFO pictures they were either real, or they were prank pictures made by some military joker. He also said that the military have some extra terrestrial technology. It would make a good movie.

soapyfish
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 03:13 Edited at: 28th Apr 2006 03:18
I'd guess people in the military and government spend some time faking UFO pictures, so they have a better chance of spotting a fake when Joe Public decides to make one. Whether or not this is what he found, and whether he even found what he says he found, we'll probably never know.

EDIT:: And if you forget about all the UFO hubbub, this isn't the first time people have found big, computer shaped, holes in national security. If the govs did something about it there'd be a lot less embarassment to be had.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 05:45 Edited at: 28th Apr 2006 05:46
lol, thats pretty funny/wierd/sad that he could do that with just a few simple commercial products. I think this is hilarious yet in a ridiculous way
Quote: ""I appear in an official American army pamphlet ... in a guide to combating terrorism in the 21st century.""

As much as I like the US and their government, they shouldn't try to, like Fallout said, blow this out of proportions, it really was THEIR fault for not having proper security systems in place, and I doubt he intended to do any harm. Better him then an "Al-Qaeda" terrorist, lol .

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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 10:11
Speaking of blowing out of proportion, who loves this line?

Quote: "even crippled vital defense systems shortly after the September 11 attacks."


Quick way to making the public hate someone? Link them to September 11, even if it's blatantly untrue.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 10:24
Vital defence systems that have no password protection is crazy.

BatVink
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 11:46
That's the difference between the US and the UK. The UK have a "no comment" policy on security matters, so that it is impossible to glean any information for or against a story. In the US, they tell the World they caught someone, and the next generation of terrorists learn enough to modify their tactics.



Jeff Miller
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 12:31
I disagree. If this were a really dangerous hack it would have been kept under raps until the hacker was apprehended and safely confined, or longer. The US made this non-critical one public when they indicted him four years ago. I remember because one of the hacked sites was a few miles from my house. At the time he admitted that he was smoking dope most of the time he claims to have seen (but was unable to download) pictures of the UFO's. He also supposedly found evidence of "non-terrestial officers" in the US miiitary. The dollar amount of damage is not all that exaggerated: he did delete files on government computers, probably from being careless rather than malicious, and it did take an expensive effort to track him. His case was intentionally exposed to show that the US will seek to prosecute nerds that wish to hack into its military systems, under the theory that prosecuting a nerd like this might deter others.
Tachyon
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 14:07
Quote: ""I can't talk about a lot of stuff that I found. It's just not the right time," he said with a smile. "


More likely this means that Aliens do not exist in or above earth, people just arent willing to accept it. Sure, it's a great possibility that some planet far far a way, a tentacle get's out of the water and starts new sivilisation, but Thinking that they're just hiding and doing tests to us, is just so unlikely.

Or maybe he has not found anything and wants to play with us saying that comment in the end.

Oneka
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 14:21
Or maybe he only found what they wanted him to find....
Honestly I dont think a group of people could be that stupid to leave such things easy to access....I really thing that was just bait to maybe cover up something larger or something...and also saying things like 9 11 in the picture was probably to discredit his character....I rly dont think that the government is link to the same internet as the common people are...thats just dum...


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Computer Nerd
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 14:33
The US always say bull like that they think everyone that commits crime is Osama's Satantic follower.

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 15:33
*chuckle*

A script kiddie hacks into the Pentagon... ohhhh how priceless


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Saikoro
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 15:53
Quote: "The US always say bull like that they think everyone that commits crime is Osama's Satantic follower."

Exactly. Can anybody say McCarthyism?

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Steve J
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 17:43
I hate him. He was so un-constitutional. Putting commies, or non-commies, in jail is horrible. But I think he was just the hand to the man behind the door.

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Tachyon
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 18:52 Edited at: 28th Apr 2006 18:52
Quote: "Or maybe he only found what they wanted him to find...."


Ohh, the X-files. They are so good. (was'nt this sayed in the series)
But, didnt the sigarette smoking man die, so who's taking over him?

soapyfish
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 19:42
Quote: "Honestly I dont think a group of people could be that stupid to leave such things easy to access"


But this is the same group of people who were stupid enough to decide against using passwords.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 28th Apr 2006 22:25
It's always nice to know that my PC is better protected than the US Government's top secret files which could cripple vital defence systems.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 01:36
Quote: "It's always nice to know that my PC is better protected than the US Government's top secret files which could cripple vital defence systems."


My PC has three passwords to get to the password screen. I think that's a record.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 02:20
@fighting spirit: /CHEER

You guys really aren't thinking that deeply... First they insult the guy to make america hate him, and then they sneek in how he did it... That would be classified information I say, the government was 'technically' caught with their pants down, and instead of keeping the malicious image of the guy, they allow him to be viewed as an amature... a n00b, who found a big loop hole... I smell fish.

Make a big parade about a guy, slip out some information on how the government is a little behind on it's security, leave a few dummy terminals open, and rake in the would-be hackers. A perfect trap if that is what it is...

P.S. How can you 'see' pictures of UFO's and not be able to Print Screen?

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Saikoro
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 05:12
Yes, OnePost. That's exactly what it is, the US government would show off their own incompetency to try to catch at most three hackers. My guess is he got into some of the lower computers which didn't really have anything on them, and got busted for it. However, as the government is, they like to pin blame on someone else (in this case, him crippling vital defence systems), and what a better way to get Bush's ratings up to make an easier entrance for the next Republican president than to move blame away from his administration and pin it on a select few individuals.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 06:54
Don't get me started on what our government should do I will say though, that he had no right to hack into any computer even if they were not passworded. He should be punished to the full extent of the law. Thats like saying someone should be able to come into your house and steal all your stuff if you forget to lock your door when you leave.

Saikoro
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 08:17
Perhaps, but what did he steal? It's more like he walked in your house and looked at what kind of dinnerware you had, then got caught on the way out.

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dark coder
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 08:28
well you cant compare it to walking into someones house by any means, and i think what he did was wrong but the cost in damages is a bit stupid, are they including the cost of there investigation or something?.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 09:55
Quote: "Perhaps, but what did he steal?"


He stole information. Even if just looking at fake pictures. It was stuff that was not his and they did not want him to see.

Quote: "It's more like he walked in your house and looked at what kind of dinnerware you had, then got caught on the way out."


Or walked in and seen your wife in the shower, and you caught him on the way out.

Quote: "well you cant compare it to walking into someones house by any means"


Why not? Some people hold information on their computers in higher (or the same) regards to most things in their house. You can even do alot more damage to a person from going in their computer than if you went in their house while they were not there.

Saikoro
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 10:59
Sure, but neither of those is of any monetary loss unless he deleted information which cost resources to obtain, and by what it sounds like, he just peeked around. Looking at something is not stealing it, otherwise I'd be prosecuted for stealing half of America. Using a wife example is a fallacy because that involves a direct and high emotional level with the information, and I highly doubt that the Government is going to go through any emotional distress (other than stress of covering this up itself) for him looking at computer files, else there is a strange person over there with an extreme perversion for jpegs.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 11:52
It's not like walking in your house. It's more like looking in your brief case, and then closing it again. Some brief cases have combination locks, so it is very close to that.

Saikoro
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 12:03
Hmm... How about a house with a combination lock?

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 12:13
The point is you should neither look in someone elses computer, house, or even brief case without their permission. Penalties are way too weak on crime. This is why we have so much crime. Data of any type can mean alot more to some than others. Just because it doesn't mean much to you doesn't mean it can't mean the world to someone else. What he actually seen is really un-important in the big picture. The threat comes from what he could have seen, and he should be judged on that. People should know it is wrong to hack and that they will be punished.

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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 12:28
Ah yes I heard about this, quite stupid

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Saikoro
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 13:39
Quote: "The threat comes from what he could have seen, and he should be judged on that. "

So someone who brings a gun to a store robbery should be charged with 1st degree murder, because he could have killed the clerk? IMO you should get pinned for what you actually committed, not for what you could have committed or you might have committed. It doesn't make sense.

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Philip
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 13:52 Edited at: 29th Apr 2006 13:53
This individual should certainly receive a custodial sentence in prison.

In my view there are far too many people, particular computer geeks, who erroneously regard computer hacking, virus writing, etc., as being harmless fun, and not a very serious criminal offence. These activities may or may not do physical damage to another's property (and if they do obviously the offence is worsened) but in all cases they certainly do violate another's rights to privacy and confidentiality.

I am glad that English judges have now realised the gravity of these offences and the trend in our Courts is to give convicted hackers a prison sentence. I really couldn't care less if the offender is a spotty 16 year old with relationship difficulties or, in this case, a 39 year old obsessive compulsive. Neither are any excuse.

As for this McKinnon, he committed offences in the USA and should be extradited. Let him face trial in the country where he perpetrated his crimes. And good riddance.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 14:30 Edited at: 29th Apr 2006 14:37
The crime is for damages. I don't think there is a crime otherwise. If you use my brief case example, it would not be a crime to look in someones brief case, but it would be a crime to burn their notes. How much of a crime though? Very minimal I'd say. If it was a security issue, the security of the country, then it becomes a spy issue, but unprotected security of a country is then also at fault. I personally think that the guy might get off quite easily.

Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 21:43
Quote: "So someone who brings a gun to a store robbery should be charged with 1st degree murder, because he could have killed the clerk?"


Yes they should if the gun was loaded. If this was the law there wouldn't be many armed robberies. There is a possibility the gun could have went off and killed someone. Even if this was an accident it was caused by a premeditated crime, and you can't say "I'm sorry" and bring the person back. It's the same way with drunk drivers. They should just shoot them when they pull them over. Many people think that is harsh, but how many would drink and drive then? And what if they killed your family. They knew the risks when they started drinking.

We should do all we can to cut back on crime and the only way is more severe penalties.

Quote: "it would not be a crime to look in someones brief case"


Though it should be (Punishment ... 2 days in jail for the first offense). I should be able to leave my brief case by accident and no one look in it. If something is not yours then leave it alone. This should go for all things private.

The whole system is messed up. Was reading the other day about a car being stolen. The man who's car was stolen had theft insurance, but it didn't cover it. They said it was his fault as he left the keys in it and the door unlocked accidently (when stopping at a store).

Saikoro
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 21:55
And thats the MacCarthy way of thinking. "Hey, they might be a threat, so lets hit em with everything we've got so no one else will follow suit, lets just keep making the example out of these guys". IIRC, there was also a time where every Japanese-American was put into a camp because they had the potential of being spys or whatnot. Ruling by the sword (or abuse of power) was exactly why the 13 colonies seperated into their own country to begin with.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Apr 2006 22:46
Yes, but the people who had potential to be spies were not commiting crimes. In this regard they were incorrectly punished. Punishing someone for commiting a crime is not abuse of power, but is essential. I never said if someone might be a threat lock them up. If they walk into a store ... to rob it ... with a loaded weapon ... they are a threat. They should be punished for the full extent of what could have happened from committing this crime in this way. Without the crime there would be no gun there to accidently kill someone so the burdon of blame is on him. And with a strict punishment for something like that, he would probably not rob the store in the first place. So everyone wins.

Same goes for drunk driving. A drunk driving a car is not a possible threat, they are a threat. Whether they think so or not. Diving a car is a huge responsibility. Anyway, I have made my opinions pretty well clear on this. Back to coding.

Les Horribres
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 00:58
Saikoro: You underestimate the power of gulibility.

Also, you fail to counter the fact that the government is ALLOWING the release of information that they were 'caught with their pants down'. What kind of tactic is that? You make the guy sound like the most dangerous guy on earth, then say he was a kiddy scripter who just happened to do this.

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 01:22
If you send an email to the Pentagon, you will probably be arrested for hacking into their system.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 03:57
Quote: "My PC has three passwords to get to the password screen. I think that's a record."



... Paranoid much?

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Saikoro
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 10:40
Quote: "Saikoro: You underestimate the power of gulibility.

Also, you fail to counter the fact that the government is ALLOWING the release of information that they were 'caught with their pants down'. What kind of tactic is that? You make the guy sound like the most dangerous guy on earth, then say he was a kiddy scripter who just happened to do this."

I have no idea what you mean by the first phrase, and I wasn't trying to counter the fact stated in the second phrase. Two things completely unrelated to the discussion. At least you're consistent.

@ LiT
However, they were believed at the time to be threats, and were treated as such. Of course everyone has the ability to become a threat, but the reason that these select people were taken and made an example of was because, at the time, the government believed that they were a security issue and needed to be dealt with.

If you were jaywalking, and a car was on the street, they should be charged with murder, because they could have hit you. If you were driving along the street, and you saw a jaywalker out of the blue, you should be charged with murder. If you said something bad about the Government, you should be charged with treason and terrorism. If you got into a grade school fight, that should be first degree murder. Right?

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 11:26 Edited at: 30th Apr 2006 11:27
Quote: "If you were jaywalking, and a car was on the street, they should be charged with murder, because they could have hit you. If you were driving along the street, and you saw a jaywalker out of the blue, you should be charged with murder."


Wrong. You are still missing the picture. The only one in those scenarios committing a crime is the J-Walker (who should be punished as they can cause an accident which in turn could cause a car to kill someone else). There is no crime in driving down the street, so you should not be classified as a threat.

Quote: "If you said something bad about the Government, you should be charged with treason and terrorism."


Still no. There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion. If however you were at a major rally trying to overthrow a government, then yes. As trying to overthrow a government is treason.

Quote: "If you got into a grade school fight, that should be first degree murder. Right?"


Again no, unless you were actually trying to kill the other person (choking or attacking with a deadly weapon). Then yes. Fighting between children is not a crime (adults however should know better unless there is no other choice or the other guy went into your house and seen your wife in the shower). It cannot be murder unless you are either trying to kill someone or committing a crime in such a way that someone could get killed.

Also there should not be different degrees of murder. If you kill someone on purpose, it is murder period. If you accidently kill someone while doing something legal, it is manslaughter.

You seem to be missing the concept of the crime part being involved. What I am saying is that if you commit a crime, that could lead to endangerment of lives even if remotely by accident, you should have to pay for the consequences of said endagerment. The message should be that you are not supposed to commit these crimes, not that you can commit them carefully and with little to no punishment

Saikoro
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 12:42
Quote: "Again no, unless you were actually trying to kill the other person (choking or attacking with a deadly weapon). Then yes."

But going to a store and stealing money by using a gun isn't trying to kill the other person either :\ that's not why people rob stores. Basically what I am trying to say is that there are exceptions to things, always, and crimes are no different. I agree that if you purposely kill someone, it should be the same degree of murder, however. Planning a murder should just tack on a conspiracy to commit murder charge or whatnot. Some laws in America are too soft for what a crime is, but charging someone for doing something they did NOT do is wrong. If a man robs a store, he did NOT murder anyone - therefore he should NOT be charged with murder. Even if he had a gun, it shouldn't be considered murder. That's also, more accurately, like saying that a cop who has a gun pointed at a suspect should be written up for killing the suspect, even if the suspect was alive. It would also lead to strange situations, like, say a group of 5 robbed a store, with guns, and there was 1 man in there. They took what they wanted and left, without harming the man. Should all five of them be charged for murder? The facts and conclusions don't add up.

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Philip
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 14:16 Edited at: 30th Apr 2006 14:17
@Pincho

Quote: "If you use my brief case example, it would not be a crime to look in someones brief case"


Isn't it? Are you sure?

It depends what the hypothetical person's motive was. There are a whole host of possible crimes which our hypothetical nosy person could have committed just by looking in the other person's briefcase. For example, if he was looking in the briefcase to see if there was money in there, then the mere act of looking would be a crime. It would be an attempted theft contrary to the 1968 Act.

In any event, the analogy does not withstand analysis. The 1990 Act makes it a criminal offence merely to obtain unauthorised access to another's computer.

Moral of this story: its very dangerous to try and argue law with a lawyer.

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dark coder
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 14:21
Quote: "If they walk into a store ... to rob it ... with a loaded weapon ... they are a threat. They should be punished for the full extent of what could have happened from committing this crime"


well they could have killed the clerk and the shoppers in there, waited for the police and killed one of them, stole there gun and killed any more police that arrived and he could then jack a car and start running people over, are you saying that people should be charged with an infinite list of things that could have happened? cause i think that they should only be charged with what they did and possibly intent to do whatever if theres proof of it, and robbing a store with an loaded weapon should add an extra charge anyways.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 14:35
Quote: "It depends what the hypothetical person's motive was. There are a whole host of possible crimes which our hypothetical nosy person could have committed just by looking in the other person's briefcase. For example, if he was looking in the briefcase to see if there was money in there, then the mere act of looking would be a crime. It would be an attempted theft contrary to the 1968 Act."


Well, imagine actually calling the police to tell them that somebody just looked in your brief case. You even have video evidence. How far do you think you will get in court with this case?



Quote: "The 1990 Act makes it a criminal offence merely to obtain unauthorised access to another's computer."


Hmm, I am beginning to think that brief case is not big enough. Bank vault might be more similar. But I am avoiding trespassing on property, they are not entering your home. They are looking inside some secret documents. If they were entering your home, they could physically attack you when they were caught, in an attempt to escape.

The thing is, what if your computer only contains Windows XP? Somebody snoops around, and leaves. The crime is not very consistent.

Philip
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Posted: 30th Apr 2006 14:55
Quote: "The thing is, what if your computer only contains Windows XP? Somebody snoops around, and leaves. The crime is not very consistent."


A crime has still been committed. The issue then becomes fitting an appropriate punishment to the gravity of the crime. The Courts are given a wide range of sentencing powers from a relatively small fine to community service orders to imprisonment.

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Les Horribres
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Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 30th Apr 2006 23:12
@Saikoro
Quote: "
Yes, OnePost. That's exactly what it is, the US government would show off their own incompetency to try to catch at most three hackers."


People are more gulibile then that.

But for your theory of
Quote: "However, as the government is, they like to pin blame on someone else (in this case, him crippling vital defence systems), and what a better way to get Bush's ratings up to make an easier entrance for the next Republican president than to move blame away from his administration and pin it on a select few individuals."


The release of the EASE of how he did it counteracts them placing blame on him instead of themselves.

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Megaton Cat
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 30th Apr 2006 23:22
Some self-defense laws are absolutely redicules. Just felt like mentioning that.


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Lost in Thought
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Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia
Posted: 1st May 2006 01:41
Indeed. If a person brings a loaded gun to commit a crime he should be killed. No matter what the crime. If he really didn't intend to hurt anyone he would have brought an empty gun.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 1st May 2006 01:48
He shouldn't take a gun, he shouldn't rob the store. Death penalty for just trying to rob the store. We are to good to criminals.

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