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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Getting BSP Converter to work - quick guide

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pathfinder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 15:30
Was using lightwave but should be relavant to all

1/ Number one this, when first making your map let the player drop onto it rather than placing the player at 0,0,0. If you dont do this the map will not show and you may also be stuck. Get autocam off too.

2/ Never ever make an object touch another object. Points can touch, however dont have 1 surface touch another. Heres an example. You make a box on top of another box. This means 2 surfaces are touching. I got missing objects all over the shop from doing this Its far better to boolean the objects into one object. This goes for things on the floor and ceiling too.

3/ break walls up so you can use UV maping and repeat a pattern.

Ill post a map i did, you can load it into that fpsgame.dbpro. And Ill post the lightwave object.

Please add other suggestions
pathfinder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 15:46
Okay heres the lightwave model, the maps for that model, a dirext x model, and map, bsp model, and map

you need the map01.bmp with the map01.bsp for running the fpsgame.dbpro


heres a picture of it running, its my first little map so Iam not going for a commercial look, but youll get the idea.



http://www.cadsupport.co.uk/dbpro/map01.zip

pathfinder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 15:50
lol its easy to miss my files. If you want to play about with them here they are.

http://www.cadsupport.co.uk/dbpro/map01.zip

Lampton Worm
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 16:03
Hi,

BSP seems incredibly fussy! For things like stacking objects, is it the fault of the BSP compiler or just a basic BSP rule to live by ?

Level looks pretty cool. I'm using CShop for my levels, but I'm keen to get them working a BSP, not a great deal of success yet but the BSP tool should be updated in Patch 2

Cheers.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 16:11
Sound advice there - the "don't stack objects" rule is vitally important. First of all - it's not fussy at all, it's a complete waste of resources for it to even try to render vertices that would not otherwise be needed. You might not think it makes any difference rendering 2 boxes ontop of each other rather than 1, but from a performance point of view - don't think like that

BSPs just are fussy really, no doubting it. But get used to them because they're the best way to make gaming worlds at the moment

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 16:26
If objects arn't supposed to touch, how are you supposed to prevent leaks?

putting a "box" around a leakly level doesn't make BSP very efficent.

No other map editing/bsp compiler has trouble with objects that touch each other.

Zep--

deadlyduck
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 17:42
I seem to have read a long time ago, the best way of constructing Quake levels is to never have objects touch.

Place say a picture thats hung on a wall a pixel or so away from the wall, Oh and remove any backfaces manually.

Seems to me this is what there saying Zep
pathfinder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 17:53
boolean the objects together within your 3d package

Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 18:23
Place say a picture thats hung on a wall a pixel or so away from the wall, Oh and remove any backfaces manually.

Objects have to be able to touch in order to be Leak Free. An ARCH for example, a curvey wall, Stairs.

To say you should not stack objects for a proper BSP is a load of crap. So if I wanted a stack of crates, I'd have to put a gap in between if I wanted one on top of the other? That is just nonsense.

More correct is their x 2 bsp converter can't handle it, gets confused on overlapping objects or surprise, has a bug.

Zep--


Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 18:38
http://fps.brainerd.net/leaks.htm
http://www.karljones.com/halflife/leaks.asp

LEAKS ARE CAUSED BY ...

* Hole in the Hull - a map is like a spaceship in the void ... the hull must be perfectly seamless ... all the brushes which form the hull must fit together "just so" ... the World is inside the ship, the Void is outside ... if the World can see the Void ... LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK ...

So, objects must touch in order to stop leaks, if there is no problem with them touching between the outter walls and the Void, there is no problem with them touching inside the world.

Zep--

pathfinder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 20:37
Objects have to be able to touch in order to be Leak Free. An ARCH for example, a curvey wall, Stairs.

yup as I said surface touching Ive found makes my map unloadable, but points can touch ie stairs in piccy above.

To say you should not stack objects for a proper BSP is a load of crap. So if I wanted a stack of crates, I'd have to put a gap in between if I wanted one on top of the other? That is just nonsense.

Indeed you can say that in a proper BSP you are able to stack boxes. What Iam talking about is actually getting the conversion to work

More correct is their x 2 bsp converter can't handle it, gets confused on overlapping objects or surprise, has a bug.

Very true from where iam sitting, but I want to use my map

Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 20:45
Wasn't digging at you, pathfinder. Was responding to Rich's comments mostly.

This DB PRO is turning into DB 1...Everytime you want to do something, you gotta freaking hack around the bugs.

Zep--

Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:11
So you go ahead and make a better one. As far as their suggestions go, they aren't saying you can't have one wall section touch another, they are saying don't have a face in between. If you want a crate on the ground, delete its bottom surface. If you want an arch, delete the touching surfaces. Simple. From a performance point of view, why have them there anyway?

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:21
BSP's have brushes, brushes have as a minimum, 5 faces.

Walls are made from brushes, Brushes must touch to make a solid.

Not have 2 faces touch each other??? I can see you haven't messed with many level editors.

Hidden faces are REMOVED during the BSP process, not by the USER.

They way you are explaining it Milamber, you want everyone to make thier maps from PLANES! That's not how it's done, in fact most map editors wont LET you make a plane, it's a brush or nothing.

Zep--

Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:22
BSP's have brushes, brushes have as a minimum, 5 faces.

correction:
4 faces, actually, Pyramid shape.

Zep--

Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:33
You can still have an edge touch, but not a whole face. And like I said, you make a better one. Or just wait and give them a chance. You don't expect a perfect product straight away, do you? From what I've seen and heard, they're a small team making a big project. People complained about how long it was taking to finish, so they released it. Don't complain now too much about all the bugs they haven't had the time to fix yet, just report them, and wait for the next patch.

And just to be honest, the only kind of level creation I've done was a small test area using primitives in DB v1 when I was mucking around trying to make true polygon sliding collision handling and and a weird thing in .x format as a course for a space based racing game that I was partway through making when DBPro came out.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:44
I see you don't understand Brushes.

***
* *
***

Say each * is a cube (in map terms, a brush), say this cube structure is inside a room, in the center. It would look like a square with a hole in the center.

123
4 5
678

The top face of 4 will be touching the bottom face of 1.
the right side face of 1 will be touching the left side face of 2, and so on.

The BSP process is supposed to break this up and remove the hidden faces for you...it converts all those brushes into planes (faces) for you, more or less based on what you should be able to see in the world, assuming you have no leaks to the outside (the void).

Zep--

Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:57
Does a brush have to be cube-shaped? Can it be distorted? And with angled walls (eg hexagonal rooms) even with plain cubes, you could still have just edges touch, not whole faces. And like Pathfinder said : "What I am talking about is getting the actual conversion to work".

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
David T
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:48
My BSP turn out ghosted : any ideas? This is an engine I have written from scratch, the DBS demo works here.

I love Star Trek.
Especially the Episodes with Starships in.
Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:52
Pathfinder said : "What I am talking about is getting the actual conversion to work".

Right, which is why I say the converter is no good. A half assed hack if you will.

David: Havn't had any BSPs turn out ghosted, are these ones you made with the x 2 BSP converter?

Zep--

pathfinder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 23:01
4/ hmmm additional note, I made a 700 poly map just now. Only half of it loaded. I checked and checked the mesh but it was fine . Got it working after seperating into 3 bits ... crisis over

p.s. Zep wanst have a dig at you either, just was so desperate to get some ideas together. It was all a bit scary this morning

Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 23:27
Zep, like I said, give them a chance, or make your own. After the first few posts they most definitely knew the problem exists, now leave them alone to fix it (or replace it).

Pathfinder, Zep, I understand what it's like to be frustrated (I practically rely on the rotation and turning commands working properly), but unfortunately, I don't like to lose.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
CD On CD
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 06:28
pathfinder:
thank you for your time (& i hope your patience)
i have tried your files.
i am getting totally frustrated beyond the point of blowing up. when i do as stated, i get the GUN, the ALIENS, the SOUND and then nothing but a total WHITE SCREEN....agghhh!

question: could it be that i'm calling the BSP using a relative statement like this:
load bsp "d:\download\test\","map01.bsp"
since i have placed your files in that location?

does anyone have a simple snippet that simply loads a BSP and maybe can rotate/walk around in it???

thank you all for your help...it does not go un-noticed!

United We (Still) Stand
CD On CD
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 00:35
pathfinder:
i WAS able to get your example working like this:

Rem ***** Main Source File *****
load bsp "","map01.bsp"
load image "map01.bmp",1

do
gosub _mouselook
loop
wait key

_mouselook:
while mouseclick()<>1
set cursor 0,0 : print title$+" (Left Mouse Button To Continue)"
x#=x#+mousemovey() : y#=y#+mousemovex() : rotate camera x#,y#,0
endwhile
while mouseclick()=1 : endwhile
return

NOW,,,,i can create MAP files but cant seem to find any DECENT app to CONVERT MAPs to BSPs....any ideas?

United We (Still) Stand
CD On CD
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 00:40
do you have the MAP file i can look at??

United We (Still) Stand
pathfinder
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 20:38
the map01.bmp needs to be put next to the map01.bsp

pathfinder
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 20:41
I ve made a 700 poly map, sadly it dosent work with the FPSgame due to the gosub bug problem. But it does work in my stripped down version dba however. Hopefully the patch will sort this I made somthing like 50 steps

pathfinder
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 20:45
Heres my normal test code

rem World3D Showcase
rem Standard Setup Code
sync on : sync rate 60 : backdrop on :autocam off : hide mouse

set ambient light 10
color ambient light 10
hide light 0
color light 0,10,10,10


if check display mode(1024,768,32)=1
set display mode 1024,768,32
else
if check display mode(1024,768,16)=1
set display mode 1024,768,16
endif
endif







set camera range 0.1,5000
position camera 0,0,0



rotate camera 0,45,0
rem Load BSP world
load bsp "","map02.bsp"



set bsp camera collision 1,0,1.5,1
set bsp collision threshhold 1,0.001
rem Main loop
desc$="BSP in One Command"
do
rem Control camera automatically
control camera using arrowkeys 0,0.4,3
rem Apply simple gravity to camera
position camera camera position x(),camera position y()-0.3,camera position z()


rem Show Framerate
text 20,screen height()-40,desc$
fps$="DBPro Fps: "+str$(screen fps())
text screen width()-20-text width(fps$),screen height()-40,fps$
rem Update screen
sync
rem End loop
loop

CD On CD
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Posted: 14th Oct 2002 03:52
pathfinder:
EXCELLENT test code!!!!!!!!!!

i will try again to create my own BSP.
my biggest thing is that once i do create my BSP using worldcraft there seems to be NO WAY to create the BMP needed for my 'world'

your example worked flawlessly,,,now if i can just get a BSP + BMP

thanx for your patience!!

United We (Still) Stand
Mirthin
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Posted: 15th Oct 2002 14:43
I think I feel a theory coming on...

What type of wad do you normally use for your BSPs?

WAD type 1 - Doom (unlikely)

WAD2 - The Quakes

WAD3 - Half Life.

Different wads have different specifications and I know the main problem is brushes but the texture may have a part to play. Consider it.
CD On CD
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Posted: 15th Oct 2002 22:50
mirthin:
for myself, i've tried several WAD types (but not doom type)...no matter what or how i create them with my OWN BSPs....they dont work as far as displaying much of anything (if anything at all) from DBP

my biggest issue is:
i use worldcratft - create a MAP fine - but...how does one export ALL those textures used from that world?

i dont think worldcraft is the answer.

in the example of 'pathfinder's' i see that his texture file has several "squares" for each texture that he used & all saved into ONE BMP (mapo01.bmp)....that's what i'm after, exporting the currently USED textures from my world in worldcraft whether it be in WAD form or PAK or the simple BMP

United We (Still) Stand
neoxxx
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 23:02
this metod of make bsp levels is sh*** , because
were are the light mapings? in this form, the light is uniform

Kale
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 23:33
I used to create loads of halflife maps using worldcraft, and i agree that you have got to have touching sides!!! how else would you make your map leak proof and create such things as arches, crates, steps etc... I also know that some people leave gaps in between objects that the player doesn't see, top of columns, behind pictures etc... as mentioned, this is because when the map is built and sorted out the otherwise touching objects dont meld together and create to many polys, slowing it down a bit.

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD XP2100+, Geforce4Ti 4400, 512Mb DDR, Abit KX7, WinXP Pro
The Wendigo
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 23:44
CD on CD. I found out that if you are inside a BSP that is not textured, it can make everything look white. Maybe your bsp is just not loading the textures; you may have to force it to.

1.00 GHZ processor, 256 MB RAM, GeForce 3 64MB, SB Live!, 8 cans of soda per day
Freek
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 00:57
The textures on that map are cool! did you make them yourself pathfinder??

Anyway... how do ya make a map in worldcraft or radient or anything else then save it as .bsp?? all i can ever do is .map and this dosent seem to be reconised by the convertor

CD On CD
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 05:30
TheWendigo:
ok, i'll see what i can do. in my worldcraft environment ALL sides, walls, etc are textured. maybe i'm thinking 'outside' the box,,,,if i see the textured world INSIDE worldcraft, i figure there should be a way to EXTRACT those exact textures (in a WAD/PAK) & then call them from DBP so that the textures would be automatically applied. (this is the issue at hand,,,not having any EXTERNAL texture files to be applied from DBP (or how to get these textures)

Freek:
with worldcraft you have to go download Zoner's HalfLife Tools (http://www.valve-erc.com/resources/?page=zhlt). the 'tools' are then setup within worldcraft to be used to create the final BSP file. after you download the tools you set them up under TOOLS/OPTIONS/BUILD PROGRAMS. once you have the world you like press F9 or click the last button ON TOP to RUN MAP. this at least works for me and it creates the BSP file. if ant errors exist it will show you.

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Freek
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 12:20
Thanks man, i'll give that a go now.

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