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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [LOCKED] The blame game..DBS or FastTrak.

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Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:00
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From RGT forums....FastTrak says this...DBS has blamed FastTrak for pushing DB PRO out door...who is to be believed anymore...

Hello All,

I am writing this in reply to your comments regarding FastTrak Publishing and the suspected rushed release of DB Pro.

It was nice to see Mentor's understanding of one particular problem that FastTrak suffered a little while ago but I'm happy to say this had nothing to do with DB Pro whatsoever. Many will know we used to publish eJay in the UK and that they very unkindly took this away - but it was quickly replaced with a far more successful range from Magix and as such we got through this blip with no scars, visible or otherwise.

Certain products we publish because they provide lucrative revenue streams, Magix are a good example as are our Home and Garden products. Other products we publish for very different reasons. Some of you will be aware of our other games programming language, DIV Games Studio. These along with DarkBASIC are not big money earners for FastTrak and in fact represent less than 10% of our annual revenue. We do these titles because they are of interest to us – that is that they are close to our hearts and we love what they do.

The suggestion that WE needed to get DarkBASIC out in a hurry is, in all honesty, somewhat upsetting and in fact quite opposite to what happened.

I am hoping that the DarkBASIC developers will step in and give FastTrak a little defence in what was a lengthy development cycle where WE were more than happy to delay the release to ensure the best possible release.

In DarkBASIC’s defence however it has to be said that they were very quick on the first patch and I’m sure more will follow very soon.

Kindest regards

Jon Silvera
Managing Director
FastTrak Software Publishing Ltd
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EgoAnt
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:31
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Blame game? Why bother blaming anyone? The truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter whose fault it is for breaking it, only who's going to fix it.

Neverwinter Nights shipped pretty broken, but Bioware has proven a commitment to frequent fixes and continued updates. The DarkBasic team seems to be doing the same thing.

An even better example would be any other programming language package. Take Visual Studio .NET for example. Crystal Reports has glaring flaws, as did quite a bit of the Visual Studio environment when it shipped. But it's getting better. Any time you are an early adopter of a technology there are going to be some painful moments.

There's no need to get angry until the DB team starts slacking off and stops fixing things, at that point we storm their houses with pitchforks and torches...
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Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:33
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There's no need to get angry until the DB team starts slacking off and stops fixing things,

Oh...like they have with DB 1.13

Now...where's my pitchfork at...

Zep--

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Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:43
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DB 1.13 is more or less useable, and it was never intended to be a professional development tool, just something for newbies who wanted to do something that looked fancy. DBPro takes over, and you can buy it (or an upgrade to it) for a reasonable price. The DB team is too small to properly look after two products at once. Would you like to wait twice as long to get DBPro working properly? I thought not.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
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xtom
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:45
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So long as the patches and support is there I'm happy. I'm also glad DBPro was released when it was. To think I could have been waiting 'til christmas or next year before I got to play with it. And it more than likely would have had bugs then too. A first release of something like this is bound to have bugs.
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Zep
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 21:48
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Instead of arguing with you. i'll just refer you to this page

http://www.darkbasic.com/c.php?f=about

What is the purpose of DarkBASIC?
DarkBASIC has been designed for both beginners and professionals.

Zep--

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Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:04
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DB was not up to the standards of a professional development tool without a proper compiler, that's why they made DBPro.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:07
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Both beginners and professionals need fairly professionally produced languages...

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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Milamber
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:20
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A proper compiler makes it possible to have programs run at higher framerates (once the bugs are ironed out ) and larger programs need that for decent performance. Newbie programmers aren't going to be making anything major until they get some experience, but professional programmers will want to make major projects. Without a compiler, it's a decent tool for newbies to learn on (including problem solving skills and learning how to work around limitations) but it is not a professional development tool. It may appeal to professionals as something they can play around with, but they wouldn't try making a major project in it. DBPro, when the bugs are removed a bit more, could be a professional development tool, and may even find its way into corporate use.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:49
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Personally, it all really depends if all the problems in the core commands can be sorted.

Its slightly irrelevant whos to blame for the very dodgy release now - although it could come back to haunt them if the problems aren't solved (quickly but with proper testing). All the initial problems should be sorted before anything new is added.

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 22:51
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With regards to the .NET Studio - the only problem I've found is a slight problem in the resource editor. At least it could be used properly when brought.

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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Freddix
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 00:11
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just never forget 1 thing that is very important !
What is the differency between a beginner-amateur and a professional ?
A professional is only an amateur that is paid for it's work !

I'm agreeing with EgoAnt ! Commercials products like Morrowind for example are really buggy games ! And I know what I said ( I've seen the .faq for compatibilities and problems for that game ! it's very long . . . ; )
Then if DBPro Is not 100% Finished it is only because it was important to satisfied people with an official release !
to show all that the work is nearly finished but games too have fixes and patches . . . Sometimes there no need for fixes and sometimes fixes are needed !

Programmers are not Gods they're only humans and make their possible to make their product better and better every time . . .
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 01:38
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It would help to have a working program to start with though...

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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Rodro
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 06:26
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Or a warning or disclaimer. Most of the bugs I've found was writing very minor programs. I just wonder how much testing went on!!??

Love the language and the potentail, so I am very willing to hang on.

Hey!! You talking to me?
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 12:07
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I'll have to see what Patch #2 does and doesn't fix before I decide anything.

It does have the potential to be very good - however, if there does continue to be major bugs in the most important commands, people are going to get rather annoyed.

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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Milamber
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 12:20
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If they eliminate even a few of the major core bugs in patch 2, then I'll be satisfied that they're doing the best they can. If they take 5 patches to get rid of all the major problems, then that's OK, as long as a few disappear each patch, and the patches are released fairly quickly. Let's face it, would you rather have the fixes released as soon as they're made, or all compiled together into one big patch in 6 months time? They seem to be doing OK, with patch 1 released before my copy even arrived. Give them a few months, and see what they can do.

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Rodro
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 17:56
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I'd love to do stuff with the language but I keep on running into a bug. I'm really getting annoyed. All I know is if I implement something like this where I work, I'd be fired.

Hey!! You talking to me?
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Milamber
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 18:46
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But at your work, you'd have more people working on something this major, and the beta testing process would be a bit more refined than what the DBPro team use. Also, you'd probably have more experienced people setting deadlines/completion dates. I believe the original release date was supposed to be back in March, or something like that. The reason it was released in this state was because people asked for it one too many times. "Be careful what you wish for. You may get it."

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 12th Oct 2002 21:09
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In my case no, its just me programming...

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 09:35
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From my personal understanding of the situation... if anyone is to blamed for a push it is RGT.

basically because correct me if i'm wrong by DarkBASIC Pro was release and is still only on "official" release within the US - I am aware that Fast Trak have now published DBpro, however as from the stand point of which i've been told it isn't an "official" release as far as the team is concerned ... so technically what is being shipped within the UK is a late development Beta - kinda like a public beta that you get the upgrade to.

It is very sad that the publishing of DBpro has so far gone the route of DB, however teething problems aside DBpro is a powerful language and it doesn't matter who if anyone is at fault here!
The product is out, get over it and download the patchs as they come ... hopefully like DB though there will be a release once it is finally at the stage that the team feels it is ready, no?
Personally its actually taking alot of time to understand the new things in dbpro - especially those not within the manual
::cough-types-cough::

I do feel sorry for Fast Trak getting alot of stick - i mean none was from me, even if i was a member of RGT (I was framed i tells ya! Its all an illaborate plot to make me seem less fearsome - oh no wait.. thats why i was banned - hahaa) its not my style to have gone about assigning blame. (it was all simples fault really, i dunno how but give me a touch, 30cms of string and a polo neck shirt and i'll prove it )

however i think a fair point here is... the DB Team is 5 people - for a product of this nature i think a 2year development is pretty good, especially as the IDE developer is across the atlantic and there are 2 coders!
(that from memory, which is oftenly a lil off)

i think the guys need to be given thier props for this project, cause i mean anyone else tried to develop thier own language lately with compiler?
Didn't think so

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 09:37
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sorry for the above post.
it hasn't been fully endorsed by LucasArts™ and subsiquently the user has been sued for the use of many of the paradimes.

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 15:15
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Yes, give them their dues - they managed to get an installable product out. Yes, compiler writing is hard, but even so a lot more testing needed to be done before it was released.

Patch #2 really needs to fix most of the problems - mainly because I don't think people want to wait a further 2/3 months just to get the core commands up and running.

Yes, I really am THAT good...
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Dreamora
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 17:40
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I only hope they are going on to improve DB Pro, fix bugs and implement new things not like in DB where they brought out the new things on an extra CD ... And DB Pro is, as said on the back of the package, thought as fully functionable, not a damned buggy beta version.

So i really hope they speed on fixing all bugs, cause nearly nothing really works, even things that worked in DB 1.13 without any problems. Arrays get emptied, BSP doesnt really work ... lots of grafical bugs, even if you only make a cubic room out of 1 texture ... go straight to the walls and you will see what I mean.

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Milamber
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Posted: 13th Oct 2002 19:49
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I seem to be saying this a lot, but GIVE THEM TIME!!!

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Milamber
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Battlemagi
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Posted: 15th Oct 2002 20:26
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"If they eliminate even a few of the major core bugs in patch 2, then I'll be satisfied that they're doing the best they can. If they take 5 patches to get rid of all the major problems, then that's OK, as long as a few disappear each patch, and the patches are released fairly quickly. Let's face it, would you rather have the fixes released as soon as they're made, or all compiled together into one big patch in 6 months time?"


Man are you all crazy or something? It's sad to see that people are not only putting up with extremely bugggy software that doesn't live up to the marketing/hype, but that now people are coming to expect and accept it without complaining.

Serious, if you bought a $100 television set that claimed to be in color but you got black and white, you would be livid. But with software, it's "oh that's ok, I spent my hard earned cash on a software that didn't live up to it's claim, but eventually they will fix it, so that's ok, i'm happy". Aren't you tired of paying your hard earned cash and personal time being a Beta Tester/QA for software companies who don't have their own?

Battlemagi

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 15th Oct 2002 21:55
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My personal veiw is that we should blame 0's and 1's.

Life would be a lot simpler if they just did their job and worked first time.

Seriously, forget blaming anyone. There is no-one to blame;

FastTrack wanted DB out ASAP - understandable, other products are not doing too well and some big ones left for other publishers.
DBS - Did their job, bugs in Direct X programming techniques led to bugs, who cares?
MicroSoft - (they always get involved) Were they to know that a high level programming language of DBP's superior power was to be created? No. Could they have tested it for this pourpous? No, otherwise MS would have released its own easy to use games language.
Sod's Law - No casue no-one mentioned are sods and life geos on pretty much unaffected.

Oh and when you buy the software and install it you agree to the Terms and cons. Which means that you have the right to complain but DBS do not have to do anyhting about it. You buy the software as is and any updates are for you to get and install and problems that occour do not make DBS liable.

DO NOT FLAME ME!

All i am saying is that while DBS are under pressure by us good guys to get Patch 2 finnished they may miss vital chunks of code, which may or may not (in due course) destroy the world as we know it.

Give em a break, write your christmas lists and wait patiently for santa to come with a CD entitled Dark Basic Professional. And for those of you with DBPro already, watch your indox with great patience for news of the release of DBPro Patch 2.

This is Martyn Pittuck signing off on behalf of DBS

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 04:13
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I've not really got the time to answer every comment in turn in this thread - nor will it do any good, most people are so set in their ways that an official response would be somewhat ignored regardless! Suffice to say the following:

The version of DBPro installed on peoples hard drives is not there because Fast Trak demanded it come out sooner or faster. It's not there because RGT hold the official US distribution rights to it and pressured it. It's not even there because people here "shouted" for it. It's there because we released it and all the other relevant parties agreed it was release-worthy. That's it, end of story - there is no x-files conspiracy theory behind this one.

Patch 1 went some way to addressing some of the bugs to be found, Patch 2 will address a truckload more of these and thus the process will continue. I have noticed an awful lot of people who are trying to do things with DBPro in a DBV1 way and crying wolf claiming it's bugged, when in actual fact they're just not using it properly. The manual doesn't really help in this regard, but we'll change that over time for sure. Then there are some obvious bugs (which incidently exist in the final release that weren't even present in the betas! that's the problem with a language with hundreds and hundreds of commands.. you try testing a combination of all commands in every possible state) - these bugs will be eliminated on a regular basis as was the way with DBV1.

As for enhancements to DBPro, some we may choose to give away for free and some we may choose to charge for - such are our commercial rights. For those that think we ought to give away everything we ever do with DBPro in the future for free - wake up and join a business class People will fire back now and say "well it's not good business releasing beta software" (etc etc etc) - and hell, you're right maybe we should have waited a few more months - but we didn't. What's happened has happened, we're releasing patches and will continue to do so - if you don't want to buy the product yet then don't do it, no one is forcing you to. If you have bought it and are fed-up with the thought you even need to wait for a patch then contact us for a refund and move over to blitz/A4/C++/whatever, we'll not argue with you. All consumers have their rights and we're not in the business of challenging those.

But please let's finally put some threads like this to rest because I'm going to start locking/removing them on the grounds that nothing being said is of any worth or any value if it's all been covered before. Either start something new or don't post it here.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 04:44
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Yes, give them time.
Really, DBP is great in it's current form... just not as great as it could/should be.

Anyway, I am tired of excuses.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
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Milamber
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Good speech, Rich .

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rapscaLLion
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oops, didn't know there was second page... totally ignore my last post please!

Alex Wanuch
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GuySavoie
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Blaming Real Game Tools for pushing the release of DBPro? That's absurd.

I only sell it online; same as ShareIt type sales. I was told when to accept online pre-orders, and when to fulfill sales. I do not advertise it yet, and I haven't even submitted it for US reviews because I'm waiting for it to mature as well.

Personal understanding? Pfffft.

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Shadow Robert
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ya know whats truely absurd?
letting this post go on... but atleast the team understand the frustation of the users who arn't used to this sort of thing!
if any of you remember the ORIGINAL DarkBasic release, that was just as much a mess (no offense) and people worked through it, and it wasn't until most of the mjor bugs were out (1.08) when db's popularity rose from a few hundred to a few thousand (atleast from the boards POV).

to be honest if anyone has been reading the posts i've read, and heard what i've told them when they've wanted to complain about all the bugs dbpro has even though there is a realatively compelete list in both forums - then rather than taking all your frustration out on annoying posts of this nature ... actually get down to figuring out howto code around!

DarkBasic doesn't natively support TGA and Alpha blending - however it was created!
DarkBasic doesn't natively support any form of BSP - however look at Kevins Portal Demo!

Rather than blaming the tools and bugs actually become programmers and figure out a way to develop around them until the patchs are released!!!

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Martyn Pittuck
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Well done Rich tell em like it is.

I have not brought DBPro yet becasue a lack of funding but as soon as i get enough money then my manual cover will be sent, whatever the state of bugs.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Dante Labon
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 15:25
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And we all know $99.00 is a fortune. I remember everybody crying "when is darkbasic pro coming out"...."how much longer". ALL programs are released with bugs, yes ALL programs.... Name me ONE that is perfect. I am forever downloading patches for this and that. At least the DB team is fixing things fast.

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Matto
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In reply to Rich's comments above:

1) I think an official response does help, not for everyone as you say, I understand allot are very set in their ways and won't bend their views or opinions when they should, well that is their misfortune because anyone with half a brain would listen and re-evaluate their views or opinions when someone representing a company like yourself representing DBS, that has always been seen and is known to be polite, honest, informative and factual as best their abilities or situation allow when addressing problematic issues for such a complex piece of software, replies to a current topic in debate or question asked. I am sure infact many people would back up the fact it is good to see such official responses and is incredible that you can actually believe what is being said !! Keep it up Rich, your doing a fine job.

Now, with regard to the release of DBP and the first and subsequent patches, I think you released it in an presentable state especially regarding the TYPE of software it is.., as you and your fellow business people agreed before releasing it, this is something anyone owning a PC should consider when Upgrading/Buying a PC, wanting to use a PC and even when they turn their PC on, "this" being that any Hardware or in particular, software they own or buy to run on it may cause problems because of incompatibility or because of the way the person uses it, the hardware, the software or system may become problematic, this is the real world and things are going to get worse as technology gets more refined and upgraded or changed for more intricate and futurist designs, so the amount of bugs that go with it increase, at least this is correct at the present time, I have never had more problems with software as I have had this year, some hardware related some software related some my own inability to use it properly, I still choose the PC over any other platform because it allows me to have more in-depth control over what I do and do things I am unable with a console, maybe I even like sorting the problems out when they arise..., if I wanted a free and easy life when it comes to games I would go for console, we all know they have less problems, but I choose PC for gaming over a Console, if you use other software or games that require a PC to run the software in order for you to use it, then be prepared for the worst, expect it and deal with it if it happens, be glad if the worst doesn't happen, but be prepared. It is expected to have patches nowadays for PC software after it's release, whether it is to cope with updated components in the PC market or to better the product you have bought it will have a patch generally of some sorts, I have found a couple of errors in DBP, which Lee has kindly let me know have been fixed for patch 2, Lee also informed me like Rich has previously said that I need to look differently into programming with this language than I did in DB 1 to deal with some other problems I found, there are workarounds to most problems I found in actuality and now those problems turn and put me at the centre, so I now know that I should be more strict in my approach to bugs, check various ways I could also approach a persistent glitch in my work before I go waffling on about a bug and find I am the one looking silly not someone who knows a damn site more about coding than I ever will.
I'm not the only person guilty of submitting bugs that are infact my fault, I hope others reading this realise their ability to cause faults are higher than DBS's in allowing a bug to slip through the large net of DBP and maybe now will take the time to check their problems thoroughly before committing themselves to an embarrassing situation.

As far as paying for enhancements goes, if what I have bought in the form of DBP is patched as best you can which I am sure you will and which I know you are working on avidly, I will pay for enhancements you make for DBP if they fall into the "I need that" or the "I've Got to have it anyway" categories

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Tapewormz
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All I can say is. You get what you pay for. What did you expect for 169$ US? Visual Studio.NET? HAHAHA! UM NO!

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Tapewormz
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Location: Winnipeg, Mantoba, Canada
Posted: 17th Oct 2002 08:20
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169$ CAN I mean... Whoops.

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Tapewormz
21
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Joined: 15th Sep 2002
Location: Winnipeg, Mantoba, Canada
Posted: 17th Oct 2002 08:23
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And for the record...All I care about at this point is getting my manual. I don't even care about functionality right now. I'm too busy with graphics and so on to even care about programming yet.

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