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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Orwellian? You decide.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 01:42
Grandma, that was towards Musashi (the links). Regarding the civil protest at wtc site, I work from home that day and have care of my 6 month old daughter so I don't think I will be able to make it. If its still in swing in the evening I will get down there!

Grandma
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 01:43 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 01:46
@ Jeku

Quote: "No, I'm not American, so it's of no interest to me."
That's why i guessed no

Quote: "I enjoy debating politics like the best of 'em, but it's against the forum's AUP."


Well, can't argue with that lol.

@ CattleRustler
I was refering to your question if anyone had seen V for Vendetta.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 01:46 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 02:10
oh oh
sorry


grandma:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4580078919009360294&q=9%2F11+VENDETTA+past%2C+present+%26+future&hl=en

and this doesn't leave out the Brits, a large section regarding 7/7/2005
Alex Jones' TerrorStorm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947

Grandma
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 02:39 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 02:45
@ CattleRustler

Seen it just like everything else wich has a slight connection with 9/11. Haven't seen "A scanner darkly" yet though.

http://wip.warnerbros.com/ascannerdarkly/

Edit : click on "substance D" and you'll hear good o'l Alex shouting.

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Steve J
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 02:59
I find the entire possibility of the 9/11 conspiracy theory plain stupid. In the end, I don't care, and we can agree to disagree. I doubt we will ever know who is right, so I don't care.

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 03:10 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 03:13
then why post?

I think you do care. Your reaction is normal, anger and denial are the first steps in the process. But I digress. The mountains of evidence are out there for anyone curious to climb. And I'll say it until im blue in the face, there is no escaping the laws of physics.

@Granny, Ill have a look

Steve J
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 03:36
I have looked, but I still don't care. Why post? It would just go on and on, both sides arguing, when really the point doesn't exist. You can say what you think is right, they could say what they think is right, until it is a moot point. I am not angry, I am not denying it. I simply said I think it was stupid. I am curious to why..if the government has killed 2000 people, WHY WOULDN'T THEY KILL THESE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE VIDEO? I figure they wouldn't care, but these people are still alive, their families are alive, so what is it? You think the government did this terrible act, but is going pansy on a few more people? meh, just sounds pretty odd to me. I really don't care, but there is no neutral, so I choose to side with what my logic says.

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
Grandma
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 04:10 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 04:13
Well, i'm sorry to say that your logic is a bit strange. If the government has done it then they would surely not "silence" Dylan or the others behind Loose Change. Why you ask? because that would only give the 9/11 truth movement credence. Is it really that hard to imagine? Look up Project Nortwoods and maybe take a look at the USS liberty case. Hitlers reichstag fire is a prime example even.

Btw it was near 3000 people.

Anyways, it's sleepy time.

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SageTech
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 04:21
@CattleRustler

Regarding your response, Id love to see some more info on 9/11, please do contact me at jrcdrummer@aol.com, I'm very interested on the subject as I've really been changing mind sets lately. Cheers.

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CodemanV
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 06:04 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 06:05
Here's a well presented documentary about 9/11. It was the first one I watched on the subject. Highly recommended.

Quote: "
George Humphrey provides objective and factual information while asking relevant questions concerning events which took place on September 11. This booklet gives a clear summary of the occurrences of 9/11 uncovering "The Great Illusion" presented by the predominate media. An invaluable tool to use at a grass roots level. Starting with ourselves, we can restore sanity and justice, one person at a time."


George Humphries - The Great Illusion

Part I
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5636844922487476762&q=great+illusion

Part II
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4717035541390066547&q=great+illusion
CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 14:21 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 14:28
sage, I and others have sprinkled links in posts throughout this thread, start with that. Today I will be putting together a list of links (which I have been meaning to do) and will make it available when its done.

Everything I have is widely available on the internet but it will save people the time of wading through tons of pages. The other day a google search of the term 9/11 yielded 277 MILLION results, just now....

Quote: "Results 1 - 10 of about 284,000,000 for 9/11. (0.45 seconds)"


EDIT: I would like to thank everyone for having kept this thread "politics-free". It has gone way off topic from google spying. I think it better is 9/11 discussions take place elsewhere. Thanks.

Saikoro
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Grandma
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 19:21
^^ and?

If you wanted to point out that Loose Change 2nd ed. has inaccuracies then you're a bit late because most of us knew that.

Anyway here's something i found out some days ago; The manifest list of all the planes doesn't show any of the hijackers names and they (government) claim they found a passport from one of them and used that to identify the other 18? How can that be? Well one asked them why the hijackers names weren't on the list. Because they used FALSE passports the government said. *dies of laughter*

To sum it up; They couldn't have been identified since there were no bodies left of them to autopsy (for obvious reasons) and they used false passports. As They said in Loose change "Who writes this stuff?"

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 20:23
just heard on Alex Jones radio show, Professor Steven Jones of Brigham Young University has been suspended with pay for his 9/11 papers (peer reviewed mind you). He is a professor of Physics at BYU and has done triple redundant independent studies on steel samples from the wtc site which proves that Thermite/Thermate was used to cut the structural steel in the buildings.

never heard of thermate/thermite?
watch these short videos

now watch this video from camera planet.

see anything similar?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 20:49 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 20:50
CR, cheers for that, I did see V for Vendetta, good movie, weird, but thats how I like it, got to be the best comic book hero in my opinion (Or Villian, depending how you look at it)

Quote: "Your quite right Musashi"

Theres a first time for everything

Quote: "Edit : @ your (Musashi) question, yes! You would. And you could therefore be treated as one."


Thats stupid, because I'm not causing terror, however in my country, I doubt they would just yet, most of us brits still keep our own views and even our tabliods knock the government and its view, so it would be hard to treat me like one and get away with it But I'd probaly would get arrested though.

Quote: "never heard of thermate/thermite?"


Love the stuff mate, on series 3 of brianiac they got the viewers to write in to see what they want thermite to destroy, heck they get a lot of stuff we can't get a hold of, like using Napalm on a flight recorder, a tank on a safe, and blowing up Caravan after caravan in games of Brainiac snooker, golf and the new one, darts.


Steve J, if the government were to silence someone after making a loud shout, then that adds more to them being guilty of something, if the media caught hold of people finding evidence and then suddenly disappearing or mysteriously murdered, its going to draw suspicion, as there is evidence public laying around other people are going to pick up upon it, the media will most likely investigate in the deaths if they feel it is related and well, it makes matter worse.

Grandma
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 20:53 Edited at: 8th Sep 2006 20:57
Just to back you up:

Thermite cutting:


Then look at this.






I just tuned in and heard he's been suspended myself. Clearly an attack on free speech.

Edit : brainac rocks

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 21:20
Interesting point there, the red/yellow/orange stuff definately looks like thermite to me and well I'm sure it is. Also, a plane crash wouldn't cause such a well cut on the structure there. Just to comment on what looks obvious to me when thermite is brought into the idea.

Quote: "Edit : brainac rocks"

Certianly does.

Izzy545
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Posted: 8th Sep 2006 23:01
Yea, I'd have to say those pictures are pretty tough to dispute.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 01:50
CR I finished watching the video, although not 100% accurate, it illustrates good points and has a good example of why I hate media like Fox, that bit really p**sed me off, he was basically saying to the guy you're a nut, I'm not going to listen to you because I am better than you and what you say isn't important, before even knowing what he is saying, basically illustrating an immature person put in the middle of a political discussion, like putting this person 'I've referred to on these forum from a myspace group' (AKA Homeland Security/Recon) in the middle of this thread. Or Blair in the Tory Party I've seen Blair argue, he gets shirty and makes me laugh, what a character to make parliament fun to watch. Its like putting Mr T in Big Brother.

Jeff Miller
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 01:52
I've tried to keep and open mind concerning alleged government conspiracies and cover-ups for quite a few years, and by "open" I mean I will try to objectively look at any new information even long after I've formed an opinion. My father got messed up real bad at the Pearl Harbor attack, which is as close a situation to 9/11 as you can find during middle of the last century (1941). Although I wasn't even born until several years later, it was obviously a matter of interest to me. It took a lot of reading and a degree of courage to come to the opinion that the government whom my Dad was serving set him up for exposure to attack to allow an event that would provide justification to enter WWII. Whether the ends justified the means is a totally different question; the point is that a government - any government - can undertake an activity that it would never dream of putting up for a vote. I was in high school when President Kennedy was killed, and after 43 years of reading and watching documentaries I have reluctantly concluded that I will go to my grave without having the benefit of full disclosure of all that the government knew. With 9/11 you can expect this debate and investigation to go on for a loooooooong time, I guarantee. My advice, however, it to try not to jump to conclusions: weight all the evidence and be rigorous with your logic. Don't outright reject a theory based upon a belief that your government can do no wrong: governments are made of people, and people can do wrong. On the other hand, be careful with your syllogisms.

For example, one of the posts above concludes that the government lied in saying that a suspect was identified from a passport found in a crash because the passport was a false passport. My experience with passports has been that nobody would go through any trouble to determine whether my passport bore a phony name, but they would make sure I looked like the photo before letting me on the plane. A false passport can have a phony name, consistent with the appearance of the phony name on the manifest, but a true photo. If a body is not found but the passport is found, the real identity of the passenger might be determined from the real photo.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 02:08
Good points and good advice, same sort of idea is encouraged in the study of philosophy. Grabbing a bias before weighing it all out is a bit of a weakness of mine, better strengthen it before someone uses it against me.

Jeff Miller
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 03:28
It seems to be a weakness of everyone, not you in particular. I mentioned that I've "tried" not to jump to conclusions, but I sometimes fail miserably.

An additional caution that I only caught on to very late in life is to be open to the idea that although current science is the best available at the time, but it may be totally false in the light of subsequent technology. I would encourage anyone interested in this perspective to read "The Day the Universe Changed" by James Burke, from your side of the Atlantic. On my side of the Atlantic, I see many people who were imprisoned for many years - based upon convictions which 12 jurors viewed as factually based "beyond a reasonable doubt" (the US standard)- being now exonerated based upon newer DNA technology regarded as more accurate that the CSI technology introduced into evidence against them at the time they were convicted. A case of physical probability of the cause of the WTC disaster or anything else that passes "peer review" today may be the best that we can base our judgment on - today. But tomorrow it could look shortsighted, and incorrect.
Saikoro
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 03:39
Quote: "If you wanted to point out that Loose Change 2nd ed. has inaccuracies then you're a bit late because most of us knew that."

Not so much that, rather that I just would rather know what the accuracies are. Can't find em.


CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 04:11 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 04:13
this is not about loose change, its about the totality of the evidence, mountains of it pointing to "inside job". Aside from what your government tells you thru Fox news, what evidence have they given you that it all happened they way they say? And by whom?
And I when I say evidence, I mean that which stands up to scrutiny, scientific or otherwise, and is not laughable like the 9/11 Ommission report. They cant explain how "pancaking" floors would erraticate the 47 core box columns in each building, so they completely leave them out of the report. WTC 7, never hit by a plane, with two small fires in floors 7 and 12, collapses into its foot print at freefall speed (in a vaccuum) at 5:20 pm?

Lets remember a few things:
-Kerosine (jet fuel) cannot burn hot enough to melt or weaken structural steel, especially the UL rated steel used in those buildings.
-How is it possible that all 3 buildings collapsed at the speed of freefall in a vaccuum?
-Why have no steel framed buildings in history ever collapsed from fire, never prior, nor since 9/11, even ones that burned for 24+ hours? (wtc 1 and 2 burned for 103 and 56 minutes respectively)
-Do you see a Boeing 757 anywhere at the pentagon?

I could go on and on and on..... but its not necessary, the first two points above seal the deal. Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie, only people do. I don't claim to know everything that happened, but I do know for sure what didnt happen - you can read about it in the 911 Commission Report

enjoy this clip I made last week:
http://www.mod2software.com/misc/911Test2_0001.wmv

Saikoro
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 04:37
Quote: "Do you see a Boeing 757 anywhere at the pentagon?"

Yes. How can you not?

Quote: "How is it possible that all 3 buildings collapsed at the speed of freefall in a vaccuum?"

Are you suggesting that the government sealed the buildings around in a vaccuum then destroyed them?


Quote: "Kerosine (jet fuel) cannot burn hot enough to melt or weaken structural steel, especially the UL rated steel used in those buildings."

Actually, it can cause it to lose a significant portion of its strength (50%) at 1100 deg F. (Source: Popular Mechanics : http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=4&c=y


Grandma
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 06:29
Quote: "Quote: "Do you see a Boeing 757 anywhere at the pentagon?"
Yes. How can you not?"


That's higly debatable.

Quote: "Quote: "How is it possible that all 3 buildings collapsed at the speed of freefall in a vaccuum?"
Are you suggesting that the government sealed the buildings around in a vaccuum then destroyed them? "


Ohhhh flamebait, must resist!

*Resist succes! Gained 3000 XP*

Quote: "Quote: "Kerosine (jet fuel) cannot burn hot enough to melt or weaken structural steel, especially the UL rated steel used in those buildings."
Actually, it can cause it to lose a significant portion of its strength (50%) at 1100 deg F. (Source: Popular Mechanics : http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=4&c=y"


That's right, but now you just debunked one claim from the official story! It was the official story who claimed the fire melted the steel first.

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 07:39 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 08:55
EDIT:

Not worth it

Saikoro
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 08:41
Quote: "That's higly debatable."

How so? theres pictures of the debris.

Quote: "Ohhhh flamebait, must resist!

*Resist succes! Gained 3000 XP*"

Out with it.

Quote: "That's right, but now you just debunked one claim from the official story! It was the official story who claimed the fire melted the steel first."

I dont recall an official story saying anything about 'melting', but regardless, why does it matter who I debunk? As Colbert puts it, I fight for truthiness. There should be no CT side or Govt side, only the truth side.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 10:58
I think Fox news should be renamed to the Goebels (sp?) Network news...

Quote: "How so? theres pictures of the debris."


Yes and some of it does fit into exactly what 747 parts look like. The impact caused on the pentagon isn't the same as what a 747 would cause, no marks from the wings, a whole smaller than the plane, no bodies, a plane does not just vaporise on contact including the bodies, because it would be the first in all of history for it to do that. I don't know what happened myself, and the resource CR has posted seems to point out things, and when I look at it, its obvious to me what it says, that the cover story is innacccurate and most likely lies, okay, the government may have not done it, but then they could have, the evidence points to that. I would like to see evidence of science that proves what their story is right and that what we've seen here is wrong.

Grandma
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 12:08 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 12:16
Quote: "How so? theres pictures of the debris."


Yes, there are pictures of debris that looks like it came from a plane, but that is far from hard evidence when all the damage at the pentagon is non-consistant with a big airliner. I don't think we should even try to discuss this topic as i have been in an gazillion debates on this subject and they all just lead to flaming and speculation because there just isn't enough hard evidence so support eitheir theory.

Quote: "Out with it."

No, my good man i won't flame you, but i will take the high road and say that you might have misunderstood CattleRustler's sentence.

Quote: "I dont recall an official story saying anything about 'melting', but regardless, why does it matter who I debunk? As Colbert puts it, I fight for truthiness. There should be no CT side or Govt side, only the truth side."


The official story has been revised several times now, to begin with that was one of their far-fetched claims. There is indeed a "truth side", they call themselfes "Scholars for truth". http://www.st911.org/ If you don't believe what they say at their site than you are more then welcome to debunk it.

It's nice that you fight for the truth, i too try my best to uncover the truth, but much of it has been supressed on the 9/11 case. Until we get more -hard- evidence we can only do the next best thing wich is to make educated guesses based on circumstansial evidence and observation. I'm afraid that it doesn't look good though as CattleRustler said it: Physics can't be suspended for a day. If newton heard the official story he would turn in his grave.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 16:55
as I have stated a few times in this thread, and which no one will take up, is this simple equation Ts=SQRT(Df/16). It describes the law of a falling objects, including gravity and acceleration (freefall), in a vaccuum (ie no resistance from anything (air, collision with other objects etc). In english the equation reads:

Time In Seconds = The Square Root of Distance in Feet divided by 16

All three buildings collapsed at the speed of freefall in a vacuum. (both towers roughly 10 seconds each, and wtc7 6.5 seconds)If you dont believe me or any of the "conspiracy" documentaries, go obtain independent footage and time the 3 collapses yourself.

twin towers freefall:
The towers stood 1368 feet tall, making Df (distance in feet) 1368
Now with the above equation we can do some simple mathematics...

Ts = SQRT(1368/16)
Ts = SQRT(85.5)
Ts = 9.2

So, the time needed to freefall in a vacuum from 1368 feet is 9.2 seconds. The towers fell in 10 secs, how is that possible on earth (with air resistance), and with the floors pancaking (ie slamming into each other) causing more resistance and slight time delays, as the energy is transferred from the moving object to the standing objects (each floor). This is not possible. Even with the most conservative of estimates, the towers should have taken 40-50 seconds to collapse via pancaking. These collapse speeds are not possible on earth... except for in one instance....

Vacuum & No resistance:
During a controlled demolition you obtain both things needed to explain the freefall speeds, little or no physical resistance, and a vacuum. The explosives themselves create the vacuum within the structure's interior (ie hot gases expanding at incredible rates, forcing the air out of the structure), as well as cutting the structural vertical beams in a timed sequence, so as to allow each of the floors to falland not encounter the one below, as it is already moving dowwards. This timed pattern is fired on the entire vertical support system, allowing an unhindered freefall, and near perfect freefall-in-a-vacuum speeds.

Pyroclastic flow:
Had the building simply collapsed due to weakened steel from fire, and pancaked, we would have much longer fall times, and a much more coarse and higher standing debris pile (ie huge slabs of broken concrete). Instead we have all of the building's contents (concrete, office furniture, desks, computers, etc) pulverized into a fine powder, which flowed out from the collapses, and at one point on the south west side of manhattan, flowed out onto the Hudson river. How is this possible? It's not, unless explosives are used. Go watch a volcano eruption that includes a pyroclastic flow, and watch wide angle collapse videos - the debris flow is identical. Only a pyroclastic flow, containing the right amount of heat and air current (bed) could flow out onto water and travel forward across the water. You only get a pyroclastic flow from a building collapse, if explosives are used. Unless there is some volcano under the wtc site that I am not aware of?

Pentagon 757:
Unless you are looking at doctored photo's there is no 757 at the pentagon. Even if the pieces of scrap metal are from a 757, why is the damage so inconsistent with a 757 hitting the building? Where are the 2 12000lb. engines? where are the landing gear assemblies? Did they vaporize from a kerosine fire? Thats interesting, I recall seeing retail Kerosine Heaters for sale at any home improvement store. Are these for use one time only? Do they melt and disappear with each use? no of course not. Kerosine cannot melt or weaken steel sufficiently - period.

We can go on and on for days if you like about any point, grand or particular, bothers me not. The official story is a lie and it will be refuted, microscopic point for microscopic point if need be. Physics doesnt lie, only people do. The sooner everyone realizes that, the sooner we can have intelligent discussions and get to the truth.

Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 18:22
Quote: "I think Fox news should be renamed to the Goebels (sp?) Network news..."


I'm not going to say Fox is super accurate or anything, but all media is biased by those who present it. Your best bet is to watch FOX, CNN and any other channel you have time for. Somewhere buried in the crap they all spew is the truth and it is our job to find it. Guess what I am saying is do not discount any network there is always a shred of truth somewhere and for the same reason don't trust any source as there is only a shred of truth.

As for the trade center collapse, I certainly think there are some things really wrong there it all seemed to "perfect". I cannot leap to any moderately accurate conclusion however as to who may have been involved in the bigger plot, whether it be our government, Trade center employees, people looking to cash in big on an insurance policy who knows. I would wonder with the thermite idea how it could all be placed and people not notice, if it is the case I would have to say building management and security certainly had to be involved also. Anyone know if there is a list of people who worked at the trade center that did not show up that day and what sort of positions they held?

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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 18:41
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 19:03
Quote: "I'm not going to say Fox is super accurate or anything, but all media is biased by those who present it. Your best bet is to watch FOX, CNN and any other channel you have time for."


News isn't really supposed to be biased, its supposed to offer the news, which is why tabloids also annoy me. Like if I heard Jim Bob just died, I wouldn't expect 'Hurrah Jim Bob's reign of terror is over', simply because you will offend someone. Political bias is for political programs, like the today show.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 19:09 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 19:14
Hob

Quote: "I would wonder with the thermite idea how it could all be placed and people not notice, if it is the case I would have to say building management and security certainly had to be involved also"

Guess who headed up the security at the wtc complex, and guess who's contract expired on 9/11/2001...

Marvin Bush, brother of the president.

Thats right winch, keep reading the rants of one pot-head's web site, and ignore millons of works of science by college professors of physics and metallurgy, ex-military, ex-cia, investigative professionals, and the like. <sarcasm> Thats good. That encompasses the body of eveidence from all sides. </sarcasm> One pot-head offering his opinion, no images, no video, no audio, no science, no math, no physics, no logic , no reason, nothing.

Here is a link to a slew of the dvd's like LC2eR, In Plane Site, 911 Eyewitness, Painful Deceptions and tons more. You can view the full dvd's for free, as they have been sanctioned by their creators to this site:
http://www.question911.com/linksall.htm

(note: when clicking links or alternates, if the video has problems loading try different alternates until it loads.)

Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 19:38
Lies.

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin (DBP/DBCe)
Download the free version
Steve J
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 19:43
I will believe Maddox more readily than any of you, or the scientists, or the ex-military, ex-cia, investigators, whatever. Maddox at least, has proven right for over 4 years.

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 20:23 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 20:23
Believe what you will.

As of two days ago 36% of americans believe that 9/11 was an inside job, either as LIHOP or MIHOP (Let It Happen On Purpose or Made It Happen On Purpose). A year ago that number was a fraction of that. It's important to note that that number is at, or higher, than the presidential Approval Rating. (MSNBC, Reuters)

When 9/11 "conspiracy theorists" beliefs equal the number of the presidential approval rating, we have a serious serious problem somewhere, and it ain't in the science, thats for sure.

Grandma
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 20:44 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 20:45
I actually e-mailed "prof." maddox just after he uploaded his new "work" and explained him a few things and he couldn't even debate it, he was in deep denial and i quote "There is no evidence for a conspiracy, PERIOD!" My guess is that he has just watched Loose Change and got offended (Can't really blame him) enough to write his little "article". Maddox is cool and all, but he's no genious.

If you want the truth you would need to scan ALL the sites not just then ones that supports your theory. I'm sure many of you use popular mechanics as a source and that is fine, but having a view from both sides is always healthy for a good debate. Here's "Popular Mechanics' Deceptive Smear
Against 9/11 Truth"

http://911review.com/pm/markup/

Now off to mix some wake-up-juice

Comp : 1024mb Ram, 3.0ghz, GeforceFX 5800, 1,1TB storage
skills: 3ds max, Reason 3.0, Photoshop CS 2, GameMaker and soon to come DBP and C++
Mr Bigger
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 21:47 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 21:51
@CR-
Quote: "btw I called you a jackass not for your beliefs, but for your lackluster attempt to cause trouble regarding my sig"


I see it in reverse.Your sig is a lackluster attempt to cause trouble and that you called me a name because i don't share your beliefs.

Quote: "You are entitled to your beliefs, as am I - being a mod on a site doesn't strip me of that"


At least we can both agree on that.I believe your sig to be inappropriate for a mod on this website because it is only meant to insight trouble on the eve of 9/11 and not because of your beliefs or the false pretense of seeking truth.

Quote: "What I found in this long journey has not only convinced me that 9/11 was an inside job, but it is now my life's mission to help prove it.
"


Then you are years behind as all that rubbish has been shot down by the experts years ago,let alone the taped confession of OBL himself.

Quote: "Guess who headed up the security at the wtc complex,and guess who's contract expired on 9/11/2001..."


No need to guess,It was John O’Neill and his contract only expired because a building fell on him while he was rescuing people.Bush was merely a board member of a company that provided electronic security for the WTC.

Since you get all your so called math,science and physics from websites out to profit on the conspiracy bandwagon allow me to provide you with just one that not only easily refutes all such allegations but is 100% free.It contains an even more impressive array of math,science,physics and truth than anything you posted thus far.

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

For all of the theories and so called "truth seeking" the OBL confession tape that was aired to the world still remains as does my original post.

AMD 2600+/1GB DDR ram/GeForce 6600oc 256MB/W2KPro/DBPro 6.2
Jeku
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 22:10 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 22:21
Okay, let's say the government did it, and we all were had. Where does Bin Laden fit into this? Al Qaeda took responsibility for this on video. Was that doctored too? Is Bin Laden a Hollywood actor? These are serious questions, so no need for flames.

EDIT:

NVM - Watching the videos now

CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:05 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 23:08
Quote: "No need to guess,It was John O’Neill and his contract only expired because a building fell on him while he was rescuing people.Bush was merely a board member of a company that provided electronic security for the WTC."

Bush's contract expired on 9/11, the other guys first day of work was 9/11 - odd, ain't it?

Regarding Bin Laden:
The video you refer to is clearly not bin laden.

Regarding the sites (for profit as you say):
Hardly. Yes some of the dvd's are for sale, but all have been released for free, as the evidence is more important than the dwindling dollar, as youll see below.

As promised:
I have compiled a list of sites that I have dubbed The 9/11 Researcher's Starter Kit. It is a zip file containing a doc file and a txt file of research links to full length DVD videos like Loose Change 2nd Edition - Recut, In Plane Site, Painful Deceptions, 911 Eyewitness and TONS more - RELEASED FOR FREE BY THEIR CREATORS, as well as html scientific research sites. This research costs nothing. Even all of the subscription infowars.com stuff is available. Anyone interested in persuing research on this matter may want to use it as a starting point.

http://www.mod2software.com/911/911rsk.zip

Feel free to also look up NIST, FEMA, UL (Underwriter's Laboratories), and the 9/11 Commision. Look at everything. Compare everything. Decide.

Science, Mathematics and Physics do not lie - only people do.

Happy Researching

CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:12 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 23:16
As a side note, if the gov and everyone else wanted to put the matter to rest once and for all couldnt they just release more than 5 frames of video from the pentagon? Oh wait, that would show conclusively a 757 hitting the pentagon - sorry, what was I thinking.

Couldnt they just show us the steel wreckage from the wtc site? Or give us some to test? Oh wait, thats right, all of the wreckage was shipped out of country and sold for scrap to china and melted. Oh sorry, I forgot. A crime scene destroyed yet no one questions that, eh?

Unfortunately Prof. Jones did get a hold of some steel from the wtc site. Steel that was given to people that wanted to make a small town memorial, who requested it. The woman who recieved it, later, happened to have read Jone's first paper where he hypothesized the use of thermite. She contacted him and gave him samples. Three independent labs tested the steel and the analysis shows not only thermite, but the patented substance Thermate - used in the demolition industry. How odd.

Steve J
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:13
As far as I know, Only mathematics doesn't lie. Science can lie, and so can physics. The reason being that both can deceive a person observing events that have both. It isn't really science/physics fault, but our perception of the events, but really, whats the difference? If we cant perceive correctly, because of something in the event, then it really isn't our fault, but physics/science's fault. How do we really know we aren't just missing a key point, and all this skepticism is following because of that?

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:19 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 23:20
I see a 1368 foot free standing structure. 10 seconds later I see a pyroclastic flow with the structure completely flattened in its own foot print. This is not possible on earth.

Unless of course explosives and other demolition tools are used. But please, tell me the key missing ingredient.

Saikoro
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:25
Quote: "I see a 1368 foot free standing structure. 10 seconds later I see a pyroclastic flow with the structure completely flattened in its own foot print. This is not possible on earth."

How is it not possible?


Steve J
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:25
How do we know that there weren't explosives packed onto the plane? As far as I can see, the pilots could have detonated them before impact, then at impact, it explodes, causing those explosions. Or how do we know for fact that the terrorists didnt plant explosives in the building, then detonated them when the plane impacted?

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:28
Quote: "How is it not possible?"

if you read my post dated Posted: 9th Sep 2006 09:55, you'd see. If using the default forum posts per page setting its at the top of this page (page 3)

Steve J
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:32
Don't Answer me?

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:33 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 23:33
Steve, terrorists (foreign ones with boxcutters) wouldn't have access to the building would they?, but the gov would, and did, in the weeks prior to sept 11th. It's documented and there is witness testimony that supports it.

People need to look at everything before deciding on anything.

(relax we cross posted)

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