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Geek Culture / Game Making Study

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 07:59 Edited at: 14th Sep 2006 23:10
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I was thinking of writing a new book. It would be a book used to go over all the processes of makeing a full 3d game with nice graphics etc., but would not include actualy code, so it would pretty much work with any language. Sort of a general discussion of the steps one should take when they are making a game, from beginning to end.

Any comments (I'll write it anyways ). Would you find this usefull, or simply interesting?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 09:48 Edited at: 14th Sep 2006 09:48
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There's a plethora of books similar to this already, but one key element that they all seemingly lack is a normal, understandable interface for the common reader interested in getting involved in game development. Most of them are biased toward a specific toolset, for instance, they offer a demo version of a C++ compiler and the book focuses on learning how to design games, but only using that compiler. Many of the books discourage new faces from attempting to emmerge in the game industry as well. They rarely, if ever, discuss the indie development community and the potential that someone might have there... if anything, they discourage people from trying anything new. If you can write a book that doesn't discourage, but informs, then by all means, break out the pen!

One thing I hate is how we always discourage people from trying things. For instance, MMORPGS. I'm just as much a culprit as anyone (everyone) else on this subject, so I have no right to point fingers, but instead of kindly letting people know the difficulties involved in undergoing a massive project like that, or telling them without flaming that it'd be wiser to start small and work your way up, we tend to bash and humiliate them into thinking that it can't be done, and that's simply untrue. It would be *nearly* impossible to do, that's a given, but impossible? I bet someone will eventually do it, and when they do, I doubt any of us will step forward and say "I was wrong." Not even me, lol. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this: If you write this book, the only thing I'd really like to see in it is that you avoid discouraging people intentionally. I'm not asking you to candycoat anything, or give speeches from Back to the Future ("If you set your mind to it, you can accomplish anything Marty!")... but there's a difference between saying:

"You can't do it. Impossible. You're an idiot for suggesting it."
and
"It would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, it would require a massive army of programmers and artists, and it would require things of DBC/P that haven't been tested or tried yet, but if you've got the determination, try."

I dunno... people built Rome, and landed humans on the moon, and explored the deep ocean sea floors, and developed other feats of humanity that no one thought were possible... I think making an mmorpg falls into that category Anyway, just make the book in such a way that it invites the reader to engage their most creative ingenuity, rather than focusing on turning them into a lab rat who never wants to raise the bar


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 11:13
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As usual Matt comes with his loong post!
Just kidding!

I think a book like this would be a great help! I for one would buy it!


http://ideal-entertainment.galekus.com
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Fallout
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 12:17
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Potentially a good idea. It could be successfully or unsuccessful depending on how much knowledge you have personally, who your target audience is, and what level of help you want to offer.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 13:04 Edited at: 14th Sep 2006 13:15
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Matt, good of you to write part of his book for him

Hey, the only thing I'd recommend is getting a commercial game out first. Otherwise, you won't really have any industry credibility. No one is interested in a book by someone without any real experience.

Next, although it's language independent, I think that you'll need a game to two as projects, either Flash or DBP, and a trial version of both included on the included CD. Purchase of the book should include the ability to actually make a game.

Next, you'll need to include a bit of original stock media (an animated model and lightmapped game model) so that you can include appealing, and legal, cover art.

And finally, you might talk to Tinkergirl, as her game design is unparalleled. However, you might want to address her on this forum, as she might rightly ignore your crazed plea for help (maybe it was just me, I don't blame her )

Good luck.


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 13:55
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Quote: "Matt, good of you to write part of his book for him "

lol!


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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 21:01
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Matt, thanks for the sound advice. I myself was leaning towards the possiblity of doing an mmorpg (don't say anything) after this project I'm, especialy since I have a server that can run 24/7 for free. I also have a lot of multiplayer experience which would benefit. Or at least I'd start with smorpg and work from there.

Quote: "I think a book like this would be a great help! I for one would buy it!"


Alrighty! If I were selling it, I wouldn't put up those outrageous prices that TGC does for books. Expect MAYBE $20 - #30.

Quote: "Potentially a good idea. It could be successfully or unsuccessful depending on how much knowledge you have personally, who your target audience is, and what level of help you want to offer."


I'd say (and I don't like to boast) that I have quite advance knowledge programming. I slaughter my programming classes, and right now I'm part of a team as the lead programmer making the game below.

My target audience would'nt necessarily be too specific. As it is a general game making discussion book, it wouldn't have code snippets or things like that, so all the reader would have to know is, well, how to read! It would be a problem though if younger readers have trouble with the fancy words, so I guess I would say aiming at later teens or above, maybe early teens. I myself am not an adult, but I know how to write in the form adults like.

The level of help I would want to offer would not be too specific. The problems I would solve would be for new programmers, or experienced ones working on massive projects. It would help then discover processes and hints they can use to get past tough stages of the project, or sothey can just figure out how to go about it.

Quote: "Matt, good of you to write part of his book for him"


Chapter one complete, next chapter.

Quote: "Hey, the only thing I'd recommend is getting a commercial game out first. Otherwise, you won't really have any industry credibility. No one is interested in a book by someone without any real experience."


That's a good point, and like I said currently I'm in a team of three people (Agent Dink, Oddmind, and I) as the lead programmer making an smofpsrtsrpg, and it's almost ready for a demo stage. It supports up to 64 players. I will be posting a WIP thread for that soon, but if you wanna see a screen or two:





Quote: "Next, although it's language independent, I think that you'll need a game to two as projects, either Flash or DBP, and a trial version of both included on the included CD. Purchase of the book should include the ability to actually make a game."


Well, there will be no project generated from this book. It will thorughly go over each aspect of making a game, but as it does not provide actual pieces of code, the work is left up to the reader. He or she may, for example, read each chapter of the book and work on that segment of the game as he or she gets to it. I may however provide screenshots for illustrations, but that is probably as close as it will get to making an actual game. Pretty much if you want to know what to do, read the book! If you want the game to be made, read the book to find out and analize the process, then go out and code it!

Quote: "Next, you'll need to include a bit of original stock media (an animated model and lightmapped game model) so that you can include appealing, and legal, cover art."


Ah yes, something quite important. I could do this if I needed to, or I have someone who would probably help (possibly for a share of the profit ).

Quote: "And finally, you might talk to Tinkergirl, as her game design is unparalleled. However, you might want to address her on this forum, as she might rightly ignore your crazed plea for help (maybe it was just me, I don't blame her )"


Yes, I have read some of here tutorials and I am impressed. I would however like to write everything the way I see it. She touched on things that are very informative. I may find a chapter of my book overlaying into her tutorial, and I will try to avoid that.

Uncle Sam
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 21:13
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Oh jeesh, I write three chapters trying to help and wham, everyone is on my case I helped get the ball rolling! Rolling!


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 21:57
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You just can't wait to get the word out about our little SMOFPSRTSRPG huh?

Patience, my friend patience, but throwing out a few appetizers is probably not a bad idea

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 22:04
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Lol, sorry, couldn't help it! And Cash asked for proof.

Uncle Sam
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 22:21
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Good idea for a book, but as someone already said, I think people would want it written by someone with alot of experiance and completed work under their belt. (As expected of any teacher)

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 22:56
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I have to agree with Megaton on that one Sam... But what if you make a running newsletter online, where you give off hints and tips and go through all the basics of game design? Maybe even have it added to the TGC newsletter if it's good enough?

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 23:07 Edited at: 14th Sep 2006 23:10
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Hmm, like I said, I have the skills and knowledge necessary. I can provide the first couple chapters free to prove it.

Not a bad idea for a newsletter, but I'm after something bigger here.

Uncle Sam
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 23:18
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Quote: "(As expected of any teacher)"


Actually as the old saying goes "Those who can't do, teach."

Uncle Sam, there are hundreds if not thousands of books like this, granted as stated earlier some do talk about an specific language or engine, but many focus only on the theory of game design. You need to make sure your material stands out and is something new.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Sep 2006 23:21
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Quote: "Hmm, like I said, I have the skills and knowledge necessary."


I'm pretty sure that one's for the population to decide.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 00:07 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 00:08
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Quote: "Lol, sorry, couldn't help it! And Cash asked for proof. "

I know what you're capable of, and I've seen your environmental scenes before. They're quite nice. But you have to understand, there is a HUUUGE difference between a tech demo and a completed game, much less a completed commercial game. I think that you planning a book now is grossly premature, because you have not yet released a commercial game. When you do, then go for it. I don't doubt that you're able. Until then, all the book will do is slow down your progress in doing so.

Like it has been said, the market is saturated with game making books. You have to compete with those, and in order to do so you need something fresh and original, and the credibility to get it published. Anything else and you are doing yourself a disservice because of the time it will take to complete this project.

It's like you're writing a book about the secrets of martial arts when you've just gotten your orange belt.


Come see the WIP!
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 00:36 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 20:46
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Sigh.....wait till the demo comes out, you shall see.

Look, I'm not a stupid noob, I'm a better programmer than you think.

Quote: "I think that you planning a book now is grossly premature"


I think that you making an RPG is grossly premature. I have not seen any other projects of yours, not even a tech demo. Start with pong. I'd like to compare our programming knowledge, I know what it'd be like.

Relasing a commercial game does not make you mature, and thinking that is grossly immature. The barrier that has kept me from releasing a commercial game is media, and now I have some great media artists.

Like I said before, I'll be writing this whether or not people like it, and it will not in any way affect my project. Joining in 2005 doesn't make me an idiot. You do not know that I have been programming and writing for years.

That's the trouble with this forum. When users see someone doing something they can't, they discourage and/or flame. Nothing here will affect my writing the book.

Quote: "I'm pretty sure that one's for the population to decide"


So they shall see then.

Introduction complete, chapter 1 well underway.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 01:57
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Quote: "That's the trouble with this forum. When users see someone doing something they can't, they discourage and/or flame. Nothing here will affect my writing the book."


That's the attitude you will need to succeed with the book, I was not so much trying to discourage you as mention the scores of books out there, many of them junk. I hope it goes well for you.

Quote: "Success is the time between doing something and telling your wife what you have done."

Unsure of the source, but it is so true.

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Bahamut
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 02:23 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 02:24
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Quote: "Look, I'm not a stupid noob, I'm a better programmer than you think.
"


You've just highlighted your own flaw. You know you're capable, and you probably are. However, if I say I'm a good driver, are you going to pay to have driving lessons from me? That game you're working on looks great, but I'd recommend you complete it before writing a book, so that your ability is has solid proof, instead of your word.

[edit]

It's not about being discouraging, it's about making a name for yourself so you have an audience before the book is even released.

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 02:36 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 02:38
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Quote: "That's the attitude you will need to succeed with the book, I was not so much trying to discourage you as mention the scores of books out there, many of them junk. I hope it goes well for you."


Thanks. I wasn't directing my comments towards you, it was towards Cash Curtis, and I appreciate the support.

Quote: "You've just highlighted your own flaw. You know you're capable, and you probably are. However, if I say I'm a good driver, are you going to pay to have driving lessons from me? That game you're working on looks great, but I'd recommend you complete it before writing a book, so that your ability is has solid proof, instead of your word.

[edit]

It's not about being discouraging, it's about making a name for yourself so you have an audience before the book is even released."


Sigh...haven't I already said I will provide a couple chapters free to prove it?

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Phaelax
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 03:12
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Quote: "smofpsrtsrpg"


A what?

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 03:36
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smofpsrtsrpg = small online multiplayer first person shooter real time strategy role playing game. Check the WIP thread when it comes out.

Uncle Sam
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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 05:33
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Quote: "I'm pretty sure that one's for the population to decide. :-|"


I swear some of you act just like high school teenage girls on here.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 05:42 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 06:44
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@Uncle Sam -
I don't think you really read and understood my message. I know you're a good programming. If I didn't think so then I would have told you so. I certainly don't think that you are a noob, or incapable. I mean, I said this...
Quote: "When you do, then go for it. I don't doubt that you're able. Until then, all the book will do is slow down your progress in doing so."

What's wrong with that?

Quote: "Relasing a commercial game does not make you immature, and thinking that is grossly immature."

Why are you talking about 'immature'? Who said releasing a commercial game makes anyone immature?

Quote: "I think that you making an RPG is grossly premature. I have not seen any other projects of yours, not even a tech demo. Start with pong. I'd like to compare our programming knowledge, I know what it'd be like."

Your comments are taking on the edge of insults. I don't understand why either. I believe that my comments were valid, and not even discouraging, but addressed some very real points. If you disagree with one of my points then you should address that point rather than taking shots at me personally.

I'll leave you alone, you obviously don't want to hear what I have to say, and you obviously don't think that much of me or my project. I hope you come to understand my last post, because you obviously misunderstood it. I was speaking to you honestly and objectively, as I might to a friend in a similar situation. I see that I was wrong in that assumption.


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 05:48
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Quote: "Why are you talking about 'immature'?"


I think he probably meant to say: Relasing a commercial game does not make you mature, and thinking that is grossly immature.

Otherwise that makes no sense hehe...


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 06:48
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Quote: "Well, there will be no project generated from this book. It will thorughly go over each aspect of making a game, but as it does not provide actual pieces of code, the work is left up to the reader. He or she may, for example, read each chapter of the book and work on that segment of the game as he or she gets to it. I may however provide screenshots for illustrations, but that is probably as close as it will get to making an actual game. Pretty much if you want to know what to do, read the book! If you want the game to be made, read the book to find out and analize the process, then go out and code it!"

Sort of like giving the reader theorys to making say the AI.

Everyone here has such a narrow mind!
If Uncle Sam writes his book then he can give it to a few people that are equally or better in the game creating aspect, and get each to edit/add/hint the book.

I don't think this should end up in a big flame war!


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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 08:20 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 08:23
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Quote: "Quote: "When you do, then go for it. I don't doubt that you're able. Until then, all the book will do is slow down your progress in doing so."
What's wrong with that?"


Nothing whatsoever, except for the fact that I don't understand how writing something could affect my project's progress.

Quote: "Your comments are taking on the edge of insults. I don't understand why either. I believe that my comments were valid, and not even discouraging, but addressed some very real points. If you disagree with one of my points then you should address that point rather than taking shots at me personally."


Not discouraging eh? I was put completely out of the mood of writing when I read your post. And I can hardly say that your post wasn't insulting itself. When reading your post, one could easily extract these false characteristics from me:

1. I'm a noob.
2. I don't know anything about programming, so I can't write a book.
3. I don't know how to code gameplay, just make nice environments.

Quote: "I'll leave you alone, you obviously don't want to hear what I have to say, and you obviously don't think that much of me or my project. I hope you come to understand my last post, because you obviously misunderstood it. I was speaking to you honestly and objectively, as I might to a friend in a similar situation. I see that I was wrong in that assumption."


You know what? I wouldn't have minded your post, and it probably would of helped, but you just had to add this in didn't you?

Quote: "I think that you planning a book now is grossly premature"


That is a HUGE assumption. You know nothing about my knowledge or my skills, what I have doen in the past, and what I am capable of. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, I will put up two free chapters as proof of my skills. Sheesh, if you were going to flame me, why not wait until I finish the book and then criticize the content?

Quote: "I think he probably meant to say: Relasing a commercial game does not make you mature, and thinking that is grossly immature."


Hehe, that's right.

Quote: "Sort of like giving the reader theorys to making say the AI."


Exactly!

Quote: "Everyone here has such a narrow mind!
If Uncle Sam writes his book then he can give it to a few people that are equally or better in the game creating aspect, and get each to edit/add/hint the book.

I don't think this should end up in a big flame war!"


Are you the only sensible one around here? You are abosulutely correct. This forum is full of people with their own little ideas in their own litte worlds, and no matter how they are debated, they must continue to insist that they are right until a thread eventually gets locked.

It would be a lot easier if people just did what I asked: make a reply as to whether or not they think they would use or like the book, not come and question my ability to make it. And of course Megaton's rantings don't help either.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 09:33 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 09:36
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Uncle Sam, what are you talking about? I know that you're a capable programmer, and I don't doubt that you can make a decent book. I've told you those two things more than once. You seem to think that I'm saying that you're not capable, but that is not at all what I said.

If you'd like, I can explain in more detail what I mean via e-mail.


Come see the WIP!
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 09:38
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Thanks fine by me.

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Bahamut
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 14:31
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Uncle Sam, no-one is questioning your ability to make the book. What is being given is advice on how to sell it.

Two free chapters is a very nice idea, and would certainly help, but finishing a game would help ten times more. It's to do with the mindset of ther reader before they pick up the book. I know nothing about psycology but I wouldn't be surprised if the following were true.

If you just give out two free chapters, people will be sceptical (sp?) before they even start reading, because they still don't know who you are and you have very little else to reference them to. Remember, people likely to buy this book won't know if your advice right or wrong, otherwise there would be no need to buy it would there? They have to trust you first, which can be difficult if you have no project of your own.

However, if you make a game then you can reference that, and people will trust that you know what you're talking about. You can also inter-link them. By this I mean, advertise the book in your game and vise versa. People will then become aware of the other if hey get one.


It's up to you how you do it, and which ever way you choose I hope you succeed. Just remember it's a competitive industry and you need something that can at least set you level with the rest of the competition, if not above.

Good Luck

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 17:56 Edited at: 15th Sep 2006 17:59
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Quote: "I swear some of you act just like high school teenage girls on here."


Hey, not like I called for a beauty contest or something. I brought up a valid point, as Cash mentioned aswell. Deal with it.

Not exactly a display of arrogance from me either. I don't claim to be able to make a proffesional game, let alone educate others on how to do it.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 19:14
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Quote: "Not exactly a display of arrogance from me either. I don't claim to be able to make a proffesional game, let alone educate others on how to do it."


All your posts do come off quite cynical though Megaton. Sometimes it is hard to have respect for you after reading some posts. No offence intended, just thought I'd let you know.

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Fallout
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 19:20
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I say write the book! Just make sure you plant a new tree for everyone you cut down.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 20:06
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Uncle Sam, I wish I could e-mail you, but you have no contact method available. I simply must address this statement made by you...
Quote: "I think that you making an RPG is grossly premature. I have not seen any other projects of yours, not even a tech demo. Start with pong. I'd like to compare our programming knowledge, I know what it'd be like."


It just seems so foul, and so inaccurate. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Could you elaborate?


Come see the WIP!
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 21:03
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EDIT: nooo, my post got erased. Start over.

Quote: "Uncle Sam, no-one is questioning your ability to make the book. What is being given is advice on how to sell it.

Two free chapters is a very nice idea, and would certainly help, but finishing a game would help ten times more. It's to do with the mindset of ther reader before they pick up the book. I know nothing about psycology but I wouldn't be surprised if the following were true.

If you just give out two free chapters, people will be sceptical (sp?) before they even start reading, because they still don't know who you are and you have very little else to reference them to. Remember, people likely to buy this book won't know if your advice right or wrong, otherwise there would be no need to buy it would there? They have to trust you first, which can be difficult if you have no project of your own.

However, if you make a game then you can reference that, and people will trust that you know what you're talking about. You can also inter-link them. By this I mean, advertise the book in your game and vise versa. People will then become aware of the other if hey get one.


It's up to you how you do it, and which ever way you choose I hope you succeed. Just remember it's a competitive industry and you need something that can at least set you level with the rest of the competition, if not above.

Good Luck "


Thank you Bahamut, that is sound advice, just what I needed in the first place. I think that by the time the book is finished, we will be done with maybe a beta version of the game, and it should include plenty of stuff as proof. It's well underway now. We have a server and everything. If I myself were buying a book on programming, I wouldn't really care about the author or his skills, but since this is online and I don't know if there will be a publisher or not, it makes sense to have proof.

Quote: "All your posts do come off quite cynical though Megaton. Sometimes it is hard to have respect for you after reading some posts. No offence intended, just thought I'd let you know."


No offense intended, but he's right. Your jokes used to be funny...not anymore, and when I see that the last post was made by Megaton, and it will be some rude remark. Give it up and just make a game.

Quote: "I say write the book! Just make sure you plant a new tree for everyone you cut down."


Well, thanks for the encouragement. I am pround to say the I have the introduction all typed out and I am over halfway into chapter 1.

Quote: "Uncle Sam, I wish I could e-mail you, but you have no contact method available."


Yah, sorry, I sent an email to you yesterday so you could see my address, but it must not have went through.

Quote: "Quote: "I think that you making an RPG is grossly premature. I have not seen any other projects of yours, not even a tech demo. Start with pong. I'd like to compare our programming knowledge, I know what it'd be like."

It just seems so foul, and so inaccurate. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Could you elaborate?"


Yes, I know, it's foul, and I apologize for the sharpness of my words all of a sudden, but you must understand my anger and why I was upset. For example, if you were going to make lets say an RTS, and you posted up a geek culture thread asking if anyone would like to buy it when it's done. What if someone said: "I think that planning a game like this now is grossly premature." And no matter how many times you say that you have another game well underway, and that you will release a demo of the new one free, people think you don't have he skills.

I know, not the best example, but I think those assumtions you made about me are not fair. For example, the screenshots do look just like nice environments, but you said so (and thanks for the compliment ) without realizing that the first was taken when I was making the map, so I had removed all of the gameplay code, models and weapons except for vegetation to make it load and run faster. Right now this game has multiplayer support for up to 64 players, a chat system, a bullet system so that bullets fired are sent to other players, several weapons, and soon to be added a horse-riding system. I once again apologize for my rude post, but can you understand that your assumptions offended me too?

Uncle Sam
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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 01:25
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Quote: "I brought up a valid point, as Cash mentioned aswell. Deal with it."


No, your "good" point, however generic and repetitive it was, was not the problem. The problem is the arrogance.

Quote: "Not exactly a display of arrogance from me either."


You have a knack for picking on people who are new to the community, which really isn't cool. In your words, "deal with it".


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 01:35 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 01:35
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I'm not new I joined over a year ago, but other than that, Jeku's got a point.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 07:13
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I was in no way attacking you Uncle Sam. Rather, I was offering you advice on how to sell the book, things that I think that you could do that would help you do so. I was very clear about that, I complemented you a couple times in my comments. I don't understand why you were so foul. I suppose that's how you really feel, it just didn't come out until you were angry.


Come see the WIP!
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 08:26
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Look, I just explained why it offended me in my post above.

I appreciate compliments of course, but not when they are thrown in to sweeten up what your about to say. :/

Uncle Sam
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 11:23 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 11:34
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You must have me confused with someone else. I'd never 'sweeten up' my comments. I speak honestly and openly whenever I speak.

I really don't understand why my RPG is "grossly premature". I mean, it's almost finished, and it's been picked up by a publisher. Sorry if you don't like it. Specific feedback would be more useful than negative blanket statements, as I can improve any areas that need to be. Feel free to post comments about the game in my WIP thread.

[EDIT] Continued over email.

Good luck with the book and game.


Come see the WIP!
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 22:21
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Well, thanks, email replied.

You'll see in the email that I wasn't directing it at your game.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 22:52
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Can I ask what your experience in game development is? Have you worked on a completed game, in what roles?

Nephin Games
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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 01:15
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Sigh.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 14:38
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Right, in reply to your question "Would you find it useful or interesting?" my answer is no.

First of all, the title would be wrong, I know you said it doesnt involve actual code, but yet all the concepts you're convering are going to be DBP concepts. Many things in DBP are abstracted from what they actually are, so they wont be much use unless you're using DBP.

Also, I know this has been discussed before, but I havent seen you mention any game you've completed. This is a serious limitation, both experience and reputation. What would me make you buy this book over something like over lets say, this book? Writtent by someone with over 20 years experience in actual gamemaking, in companies such as microsoft.

Also, you keep saying you're a brilliant or good programmer. Be that as it may, it takes a lot more than being a good programmer to make good games. I'd advise you to have a look at that book, look at all the concepts, including the non-programming ones, and see how you compare.

Important though, I'm NOT telling you not to write the book, and I'm not trying to intentionally discourage it, just know your own limitations

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 20:14 Edited at: 18th Sep 2006 01:12
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Quote: "First of all, the title would be wrong, I know you said it doesnt involve actual code, but yet all the concepts you're convering are going to be DBP concepts. Many things in DBP are abstracted from what they actually are, so they wont be much use unless you're using DBP."


Firstly, you assume something wrong. It will not touch on any code whatsoever or concepts from a certain language. This is something I've said again and again throughout this thread.

Quote: "Also, I know this has been discussed before, but I havent seen you mention any game you've completed. This is a serious limitation, both experience and reputation. What would me make you buy this book over something like over lets say, this book? Writtent by someone with over 20 years experience in actual gamemaking, in companies such as microsoft."


Yet again, throughout this thread and again and again, I have said that I am in a team as the programmer and we have a game well underway, hopefully to be finished when the book is, or at least a public demo which allows online play. Secondly, that book is about coding, not the processes of making a 3d game. So why would you want to read mine? Because its got something that one doesn't have, and the same goes for mine. It depends on which subject you want to read. Also, a book writting by the "oldbies" lacks something written by a newer generation of game makers.

Quote: "Also, you keep saying you're a brilliant or good programmer. Be that as it may, it takes a lot more than being a good programmer to make good games. I'd advise you to have a look at that book, look at all the concepts, including the non-programming ones, and see how you compare."


I know what it takes to make a game, and that's why I am writing this book. I have learned over the years why some of my projects have crashed, and with that in mine I can now write this to help others with that same problem.

Quote: "Important though, I'm NOT telling you not to write the book, and I'm not trying to intentionally discourage it, just know your own limitations"


Well thanks, but unlike everyone keeps assuming, I already know my limitations, and any post of any kind is not going to stop me from writing it.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 21:24
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I wasn't trying to stop you, and wish you the best of luck.

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 01:12
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I know, thanks.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 02:21
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Quote: "Are you the only sensible one around here? You are abosulutely correct. This forum is full of people with their own little ideas in their own litte worlds, and no matter how they are debated, they must continue to insist that they are right until a thread eventually gets locked."

Thanks!

Well isn't nice that most of us have made up! Sometimes its a little to tell what we really mean when we are restricted to typing!
But oh well!
Good luck with your book

And I do agree that Megatons jokes are becoming more offensive rather then funny!
Lighten up man!


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 07:31
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Quote: "Also, a book writting by the "oldbies" lacks something written by a newer generation of game makers."


What, exactly? Nothing is as valuable as experience, so yes, "oldbies" are sought out in the industry.

And judging by the fact that you can't take constructive criticism, I'd be hard pressed to see you succeed if the publisher wants you to change anything.


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 20:31 Edited at: 18th Sep 2006 20:32
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To answer your questions, I probably would find a book on programming concepts interesting, yes.

However, as said before and in a purely neutral way; there are already many books out there about this topic, and I would probably spend my time on that nice game you've got going at the moment than onr writing a book because I wouldn't think that there is any money in it to be honest. (As explained by others earlier)

You should maybe step back about what Cash said and read it from a neutral point of view man. Imagine it was someone elses thread and then re-read it.

If you have your heart set on doing a book, NOT for money, then why not write a wee bit and then post it here and then see what people think about it?

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