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Geek Culture / Should I make games again?

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:03
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Okay everyone, I'll fill you in on the story. I spent a whole year, like 24/7 working on a game called "Dumbow & Cool": http://www.drewsgames.com

Anyway it has made jack schnit money so far and that sucks. So I turned my hand to something else, called The Milk Paton Show in the hope of turning it into an internet money making thing: http://www.milkpaton.com

And that's so far made £0 as well. So what I'm getting at is, should I give games dev another shot? I only have the energy to do ONE of the two full time, and I'm thinking maybe I can still make some kind of living from games dev.

I dunno this is kind of thinking out loud but I think I'll be coming back to game dev. Got a handful of game ideas that I could knock out very quickly.

Thoughts?

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AlanC
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:10
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You know what? You need to advertise more! Do as much as you can. I don't have £'s or what ever there called. But yea. Maybe I'll make a post on how to tell the world about your games . But anyway sign up for those banner exchanges and stuff. Search google for "Free Advertising" Becuse I did that once and my site one time got a million hits in 1 day . Give it another try!

hhmmmmm........ hi
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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:11
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back to gamedev ! i did the same thing now get to work

I'm back! Great to be back | Watch out for one of my projects soon that will be finished
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David R
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:13 Edited at: 10th Oct 2006 22:35
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Yes, I reckon you should definitely come back to game dev; you obviously have talent, since D&C was an exceptionally good game.

However; If you do, don't bother making a sequel to D&C (yet). I know the game is good and some people want a sequel - but follow how real business works, in which (usually) a sequel is only made if the original succeeded in sales. If it didn't, dump it and find a new IP.

I think that's the key - create a simply, unique game that doesn't take aeons to code and get going. If it fails, its not too much time out the window. If it succeeds, then good

But yeah, rejoin game dev and at least give it another chance.

Well, I finally decided to create a website that really reflects what kind of programmer I really are: OneManBand software: http://www.ombsoft.com
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Scraggle
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:14
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Having seen Milk Paton I would say definately go back to game dev


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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:22 Edited at: 10th Oct 2006 22:25
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@ AlanC - I get around 1,000 visitors a day and many many more downloads it's nothing to do with traffic. Give "Dumbow & Cool" a google.

@ David R - I think you may be right!

@ Scraggle - Not amused.

GRRR life confusion. It'd be nice to actually get rewarded for hard work for once.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:29 Edited at: 10th Oct 2006 22:30
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You have a fabulous talent Drew. The only thing is you just haven't found a way to focus it into profit just yet. But, you will soon.

In game dev, as an indie developer, I believe that there are three opportunities for profit.

1. Puzzle games.
2. Lucky cult breakout hits, Blair Witch style
3. Game dev tools

I'm hoping for 2, and I'm developing 3 with the Geisha House engine. People that develop MMORPGs are wasting their time because that can never be a number 2. Sadly, a great game like Dumbo and Cool won't be number 2 because in some ways it resembles other platform games. Such a wonderful game, so much amazing time and talent put into it. But, it just wasn't commercially viable.

There is great potential in gamedev, but you just have to create a product that people will just have to play. It's all about product appeal and advertising potential. Mining ideas that haven't been mined before. No matter how good an idea is, if it resembles another idea then it won't make you any money. This is a challenge in any creative industry, whether it be movies, TV, writing, or video games.

I guess it comes down to what type of game you want to make, and how you want to make it. Just make a game that will be the most ultimate fun ever for you to play. Find new ways to represent a genre that have never been done before.


Come see the WIP!
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Scraggle
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:33
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Quote: "@ Scraggle - Not amused."


I'm sorry ... I was hoping you would be

Dumbo(w) and Cool looked fantastic and you definately have a talent for game dev. You also clearly have a talent for 'film' making but Milk Paton is not at all my taste ... sorry.


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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:35
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Quote: "Having seen Milk Paton I would say definately go back to game dev"
That wasn't funny......

I'd have to agree with cash here tho Drew Something like racing puzzle or Game Dev tools e.t.c are fun but platformer's get boring after a few weeks play

I'm back! Great to be back | Watch out for one of my projects soon that will be finished
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:36 Edited at: 10th Oct 2006 22:40
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To be honest (and blunt) I don't see much, if any, money in hobbist game making. Most people do it for the fun and satisfaction. An internet video gig thing is a better idea, but the problem with Milk Paton is that it only appeals to a narrow geek audience...us! Plus I think the randomness factor turns alot of people off. Look at succesful internet shows like Pure Pwnage and Ask A Ninja...Pure Pwnage has a legion of hot girl fans! They all gather here in Toronto (including the PP crew) everytime a new episode comes out.

I can see you're struggling to make something out of yourself, with Dumbo & Cool and Milk Paton, but to be honest with you as a viewer, I don't really see Milk Paton taking off anytime soon. I personally think it's quirky and wierdly giggle-worthy (But how many "me" are there out there?)...but cmon...an empty milk box?? Random events that have nothing to do with anything? It won't strike primetime dude (I lied about the FOX deal mate )

I wouldn't give up on filming dude. People have struck gold there, in combination with the internet. If you make something unique, something that keeps people coming back, and a website to feature it, you can make more then enough on ads alone. Look at the rich Penny Arcade bastards...10K a month just from ads, because people roll in to view the latest comic strip.

Yeah, I'm one of those people that wants to make cash online doing wackyness too. Can't blame me.

Everyone wants a peice of the internet. I can't say there's ever a time when I'm not trying to think of the next Million Dollar Homepage or popular flash series. There's always something lacking...lack of expertise in a certain area, lack of people, lack of time. I'd want to get a few friends together to do voice acting for a flash cartoon series, but I can't draw! I don't wanna release anything half-arsed out there either, that would just make me look lame. Maybe we should all take a leaf out of 50 cent's book and go deal coke? There's good money, and there's a chance you might get shot and be featured in the newspaper.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:38
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Sorry Scraggle I'm just in a mood you know. I've just got a bit of a defeated thing going on right now: thankyou for your compliments!

Oooooh decisions decisions.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 22:50
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@Drew: Would you not be better off finding a job in the games industry, rather than hoping to make money out of your own games?

Not questioning your talent, I just have to agree with Aikicat, nobody wants to spend money on hobbyist games when they can get AAA games for a few bucks more

Nephin Games
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Virtual X
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 00:30
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If you developed Dumbow and Cool into an 'educational' game, you could make some money in the kids educational software market!
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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 00:34 Edited at: 11th Oct 2006 00:35
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@Drew - Definitely if I were you I would make some quick puzzle game trials and try to get them on as many of those game sites as possible (RealArcade, Pogo, Zone, etc.). I would also try to get published with Steam as it's a *fantastic* way to get exposure--- hell, there are millions of people who installed Steam and buy those other non-Valve games. I just picked up all of Introversion's titles the other day from it.

You could even try to get Dumbow and Cool on Steam if you're ambitious, although I do think you'd need to have the full source (C++) to plug your game into their system. But who knows unless you try, right?

Good luck.


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Steam Assassin
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 00:36
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Edutainment Rules!


I used to have one of those signs, but then realized how annoying it was...
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Robin
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 00:52
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Hey Drew - I think I know how you feel - I'm one of those people constantly looking for ways to make money, be it through website advertising or game making, yet I haven't made a single penny to date. I think what you have with Dumbow and Cool is a great 'base' and you most certainly have made a name for yourself and your games in not just this community. Were you to work on another game, I think your previous games will provide an excellent example of what you are capable of, and I think you could do very well out of selling a new game.

Something I would suggest is to find a 'niche' genre with a gap and work on a top quality game to fill it. For example, searching download.com for a yahtzee game brings up several - some are boring with 2D graphics, some are better with 3D graphics but these are normally shareware. Then you can find my game, Yahtzee 123 and (I believe in an case ) that it's the best free yahtzee game you can get, that's why people go for it. I don't know whether I could have sold it, there being a few bugs I still haven't got around to ironing out, but the game is drawing in a healthy flow of traffic to my website and is a good base upon with to launch a new game. 3D Backgammon? Card games?

Hope that's some food for thought - don't give up with the game making

Robin


http://www.robinsgames.com http://www.darkbasicgames.com
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 01:02
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Thanks guys, I will keep trying and hopefully "make it" one day soon.

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Philip
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 01:04
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@Drew

If you want to make money, get a day job.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip" (Philip)
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 01:23
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Drew ,

I would say continue to work on what makes you happy, if you go to bed excited about Milk Paton and wake up and can't wait to get started then it is the thing to do. Ask most successful musicians, Artists, Actors, comedians, etc how many years they lived on nothing before becoming successful. Whichever you choose make sure you choose it for the right reason, not what will make you the quickest buck, it's not how fast you run the race but if you finish it at all. Whichever you choose you may have a long road of what many would call failure, but you only fail when you quit. No matter which you choose your product will get better and better each time and should pay of in the long run.

Just my thoughts.

As for Milk Paton, I find it amusing but have to say at the moment i am not at a point of not being able to wait for the next episode. I suggest you gather a group of people, preferably not friends, from a wide spectrum and find out what they like and don't, it should only help you.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 01:54 Edited at: 11th Oct 2006 01:54
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Drew Cameron,
Like others have said, you have a talent for game making, Dumbow and Cool was certainly very fun. I think there were just two problems with it that made you not have much of a profit:
1) I was satisfied, and I'm guessing others enough playing the demo, I didn't really want to spend $5 (or whatever it was) more on the full game.
2) That type of game isn't really the kind of games that interests many people, it has a smaller fan base than many others.

I think you should start out with another idea, or look into going professional (depending on how young you are). You shouldn't have much of a problem getting a good job with a portfolio of something like Dumbow and Cool and a college degree .

Pirates of Port Royale
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 03:05
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Drew - I think with your talent you should try and make a game that would be similar in style but have a more mainstream market - for example Xbox Live Arcade, I personally think, with better graphics, that Dumbow and Cool, or a platformer of the same style, would be great for XBLA (it would be in XNA though). Microsoft is always willing to support independant games if they think it will be worthwhile - and Dumbow and Cool was enough proof for me that it would be a worthwhile investment. I'd say shoot them an email about the process, because the language is fairly easy, and you could actually profit this time around if they were willing - hey if a game like Cloning Clyde could get on XBLA I have no doubts that D&C could.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/dev/developingforlivearcade.htm

I'm doing the same with some friends, we're developing a proto-type in DBP while we fully learn XNA Express to give Microsoft our idea (a rail-based shooter), and even if they say no we will continue development and release it for 360 with the upcoming subscription service Microsoft will be offering.

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Steve J
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 04:24
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@Drew: Make a Milk-based shooter

Seriously, you should keep on developing games. Possibly make something more mainstream, but your talent shouldnt be wasted.

http://phoenixophelia.com

Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 05:08
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Drew,

Quote: "Anyway it has made jack schnit money so far and that sucks. "


At $4.99 I'm not the least bit surprised. You might think being cheap is really attractive from the customer point of view, but being too cheap it like saying "Hey, even we don't think this is worth much" to the customer. Potentially setting a negative (throw away) first impression.

Another point with the price is that your not allowing for any reseller scope With a higher price ($10 ->$15 say) and signing up resellers, you can cover more ground here. It's surprising the number of people who order directly from download sites and never visit your home page. Ok so you'll giving away some commission to some complete stranger, but you'll still earn more in the end.


PB V1.51 & ColdSteel3D Released - Next Generation PlayBasic FX & PlayBasic 3D Available soon!
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Jess T
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 06:57
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I don't want to kick you in the nads while you're down, but what you should focus more on is polishing up the productions you do.

D&C is a great, and fun little game (played it all the way through, and even had a fair bash at the time-trial section), but it really doesn't have that quality touch to it.

You said you spent a year making the game - That's a good thing, it more than likely means that you've made it very expandable and easy to modify. If so, then I suggest you sit down with an artist (or even just photoshop tutorials) and spruce it up.

Release a patch, and raise the price like Kevin suggested. That should impress alot more people!

Also, a BIG make-over for your homepage to go along with the new release. Something to Megaton's graphical standard would be best.

The grahpic and audio style I'm thinking of should be in the realm of the original Ratchet and Clank - Lot's of bits and bods (lamp posts, tree's, stairs, etc, etc), most of which can be interacted with rather than just having a spherical collision with it.

At any rate, you're definatly doing much better than alot of the indi developers around here - You've got a full, commercial game and a full-blown internet video series both to your name (noone but us know that it's not making you any money!)...

Since the internet is your marketing platform, you're realling going to want to get into the likes of the web2.0 scene, with dynamic pages, lots of things for people to do, very sleek and round designs... You get the idea.

Plan it all out on paper, and set your heart to it and you should have no worries!

Jess.

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indi
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 08:09
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Yes, you should not waist all that effort, the next time around will be naturally better then the last project. It might take a few attempts before you pull something off thats totally commercial.

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The crazy
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 08:27
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Dude, D&C is an awesome gmae. It's been inspiration for every platformer game I've never finished

I also really like the milk paton show. The bad thing about it is you don't make them fast enough. (take that as a compliment) I know they take time so it's not your fault and I can't complain. But when/if I get a credit card, I'ma buy a milk paton shirt for sure. (You can ship to the us right?)

Please continue making cool stuff.

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dark coder
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I agree with Jess T`s post, the first thing that interests most gamers is the graphics, It maybe different here since most of us are coders and we will pretty much try anything since we are in the same community, but most gamers will first see if the graphics are good, then see if the genre is any fun, and maybe watch some videos to see the gameplay.

While I haven't played D&C, From a customers perspective the graphics are the main turn off, then perhaps the genre as I don't like platformers so much these days, making a game that is more unique but very fun and also has graphics that suit the game would be a better approach imo.

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 08:43
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Drew, I'd say get back to games.. but then again I'd also say that the shareware market is dead.

You're best bet for making money is to create a game and get it on Steam... you've got a guarenteed 12million audience plus a safe & secure delivery/payment system you don't even have to worry about.

Alternatively, I'm looking for people with a bit of C++, DirectX9 knowledge and some interesting ideas they reckon would work on a console. Not talking about some AAA product, but a quick 5-minute attention grabbing arcade style games.

Intel Pentium-D 2.8GHz, 512MB DDR2 433, Ati Radeon X1600 Pro 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista RC1 / XP Professional SP2
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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 11:26
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Quote: "If you want to make money, get a day job"


I actually have a 40 hour a week job already and it sucks.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 12:33 Edited at: 11th Oct 2006 12:37
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Drew give a little time and I will send you an email...


http://ideal-entertainment.galekus.com
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Philip
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 14:44
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Quote: "Alternatively, I'm looking for people with a bit of C++, DirectX9 knowledge and some interesting ideas they reckon would work on a console. Not talking about some AAA product, but a quick 5-minute attention grabbing arcade style games."


@Raven

Thought you were working on re-writing the Quake engine in Java?

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip" (Philip)
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 14:53
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Raven had also totally fixed ODE and was going to release the update after he finished the documentation. That was what, like a year and a half ago?

That would be a great update for everyone that hasn't bought DarkPhysics yet. That should also make Raven an expert with physics, making him a strong competitor in the PhysX competition


Come see the WIP!
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Raven
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 16:51
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it wasn't so much the quake engine, but some of the aspects for a 3D FPS game using J2ME w/3D. it was something to mess around doing while i'm waiting for my computer to be shipped up and can get back to serious work again.
in the end it was more of a doom in 3d clone, and simple terrain matrices.. just so she could have a halo-style game on the move.

could upload it if your cell supports CDCL 1.0 and MIDP 2.0 + 3D, and you can try it if you like.

Quote: "Raven had also totally fixed ODE and was going to release the update after he finished the documentation. That was what, like a year and a half ago?

That would be a great update for everyone that hasn't bought DarkPhysics yet. That should also make Raven an expert with physics, making him a strong competitor in the PhysX competition"


I wouldn't say totally fixed, but I corrected many of the issues that were there before. Added a few things which made the engine faster, and ragdolls.

It was suppose to be for TGC, I mean I sent back my build that was VC8 compliant and fixed the inital bugs reported along with quicker vector lists. Just simply wasn't released, so figured there wasn't much point in sending my updated builds either.

Honestly who would even bother using my ODE, over TGCs? or Newton?
As many of you kept pointing out quite blantently a lot, I had nothing to do with TGC past TechSupport (not even that now). So why would anyone use what I release over them?

None of that matters anyway, cause this post is about Drew. Who due to his total ignore of my post guess it means he'd rather stay on the path he's already doing or go it alone using XNA. Totally up to him.

(no doubt there'll be some sort of negative response to what i've posted, but don't expect any answer)

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 17:20
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Don't poke Raven with sticks.


Drew,
It sounds to me from your initial post that you have already DECIDED to go back to games development. DO IT!

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 18:21 Edited at: 11th Oct 2006 18:22
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There is alot of enouragement going on here and I really appreciate it.

Jess' points are very true, but I would just feel I'd like to begin from scratch on a new project. I was in the middle of fixing D&C up a peach until a big computer problem.

It's not like me to give up on things so maybe I'll just keep on going and something will pay off!

I also have an idea for another TV series that would be more mainstream right now which we are doing in December so I wont' give up hope on that either. I intend to keep working on Milk Paton too.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 19:17 Edited at: 11th Oct 2006 19:18
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BUMP: Jess, whilst I'm here, I posted your t-shirt this morning!

My plan of action is as follows.

> Rebrand my current games a wee bit.
> Round up go-karting game as a small freeware project.
> Make a simple game project and see if it sells.
> Turn Milk Paton into weekly mini series

Time to get cracking!

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Jess T
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 19:25
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Nice

Sounds like a fairly good approach to me. Start with what you've already got and go from there!

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 19:50
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Yeah, like just keep working on what I've got but change my angle a wee bit?

I have just gone through a really tough time the last two months and it's kind of messed with my head a bit. Things aren't that bad really!

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Chris K
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 21:17
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Quote: "could upload it if your cell supports CDCL 1.0 and MIDP 2.0 + 3D, and you can try it if you like."


Yes please.

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Michael S
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Posted: 12th Oct 2006 01:55 Edited at: 12th Oct 2006 02:05
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Hey drew nice page makeover

Also if you want I can put up a banner on my site

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Scraggle
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Posted: 12th Oct 2006 02:12
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Quote: "Jess, whilst I'm here, I posted your t-shirt this morning!
"

Which I presume he has paid you for ... therefore you have made money out of Milk Paton. Case closed!


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Michael S
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Location: Why do you ask?
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 02:41
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I am interested in helping with your show drew. Is there anything I can do?

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Saikoro
21
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Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 02:43
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Quote: "Which I presume he has paid you for ... therefore you have made money out of Milk Paton. Case closed!"

Yes but it costs money to make a series such as this i doubt he's even covered the gas money yet.


[url="http://www.phoenixophelia.com"]PhOp[/url]
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Jeku
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21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 02:50
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The DVD was released when... 2 days ago? And you're already considering giving up?


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Michael S
18
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Posted: 12th Oct 2006 03:12
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Quote: "And you're already considering giving up?"


What are you talking about?

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Dr Manette
18
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Joined: 17th Jan 2006
Location: BioFox Games hq
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 04:35
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I'm a big fan of Milk Paton, definately a great website and idea among a lot of crud that floats around the internet. I actually haven't played your game yet, but since everyone seems to hold it in the highest regards, I'll give it a shot. Don't ever give up on your game deving , especially if you enjoy/have the talent to get recognized!

-Dr. Manette

Bio Fox...four guys, one computer, games like nobody's business. Join our forum: http://biofox.aceboard.com
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Jeku
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21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 06:26 Edited at: 12th Oct 2006 06:27
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Quote: "What are you talking about?"


Quote: "Anyway it has made jack schnit money so far and that sucks. So I turned my hand to something else, called The Milk Paton Show in the hope of turning it into an internet money making thing: http://www.milkpaton.com

And that's so far made £0 as well. So what I'm getting at is, should I give games dev another shot? I only have the energy to do ONE of the two full time, and I'm thinking maybe I can still make some kind of living from games dev."


If he goes back to gaming, he says he will work on it full time, which sounds like he would give up on the Milk Paton franchise.


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Cash Curtis II
19
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Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 07:48
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I love Milk Paton. It's an idea with a lot of potential. I think that the humor would need to be faster and more commercially viable. If that happened, it could turn big. People would play clips on the TV and it would explode in popularity.


Come see the WIP!
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The crazy
19
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Joined: 20th Jan 2005
Location: Behind you
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 07:50 Edited at: 12th Oct 2006 07:54
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Totell the truth, I don't dig Milk Paton much. (the character) I think the real poeple are really funny Just my opinion....

My fav characters are the guy who like boobies and the final countdown, and the counselor dude.

[EDIT] AND THE GEOMETRIC STORYTELLER! I forgot about him he's awesome!

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Raven
19
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 12th Oct 2006 08:19
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Personally I wasn't fond of Milk Paton either, most internet things like this require some sort of hook; and honestly that didn't have it for me.

Although Series5 of Red Vs Blue has finally started. New season is looking good already.

I always liked Dumbow & Cool, but tbh there's 2 major issues with the game. a) Graphics b) Controls
A control system geared similar towards how modern platformers like the Jakk-Series, Rachet & Clank, Tomb Raider Legend, etc. is done would've proven much better.
The graphics also are a bit of a let down in terms of what could've been achieved, especially when the quality of the voice acting (which iirc you paid quite a bit for) is quite damn good.

With a good artist and some tweaks to the controls, there's no reason the game couldn't have been far better than the current version.

Intel Pentium-D 2.8GHz, 512MB DDR2 433, Ati Radeon X1600 Pro 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista RC1 / XP Professional SP2
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