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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] PC gaming - dead within 10 years?

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Redmotion
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 11:34
Here's why:-

1. Consoles are much cheaper and offer a better gaming experience for a majority of people who like games. (Even the PS3.)

2. Top graphics hardware is now selling close to $1000 for the top spec. Noone will be playing the look-how-fast-my-PC-is game anymore.

3. Top processors are now being released at $1000 (eg: Quadcore)

4. The increasingly larger jumps in PC computing power are now about to make PCs become obsolete far quicker.

5. The cost of developing games for such drastically different computer specs, plus the standard of detail that will need to be reached to satisfy top-end owners (and the very few of them who actually see and appreciate all that hard work) will mean they will always be available on console aswell and never take full advantage of the hardware.

6. I predict that Crysis will be one of the last really good looking PC only games -

7. - and the Games for Windows rating system won't save PC gaming.

(I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong. )

Chris Franklin
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 11:51 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 11:51
I Prefer pc gaming over consoles

Consoles = Not upgradeable , no internet play unless you get the now obsolete addons and gfx power is low compared to some top pc games with the btop graphics card i'm not gonna go into that though so don't ask

Edit:
Oh and i almost forgot the amount you spend on consoles these days could be spent on upgrading the pc anyway.

Kentaree
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 11:59
1. Cheaper, but not by an awful lot, and they only do 1 thing, play games, whereas computers do quite a lot more, including games.

2. 1000? Where the heck do you buy your hardware? I thing the new 8800 series was around 500 quid!

3. This will go down quite soon

4. This will also render console obsolete quicker, where the PS3 is very powerful now, in 2 years, most PCs sold will be more powerful. Then take into account that consoles tend to last on average 5 years before the new version, do your math...

5. This is where stuff like DirectX comes in to abstract programming from the hardware, it's now up to the hardware manufacturers to ensure compatibility, not as much the developer

6. Only if consoles start shipping with keyboards and mice

7. Never heard of it to be honest.

I think while games like FPSs and RTS still play better on PCs, there's not a lot to worry about. A PC is capable of mostly everything that a console can. There's even drivers for XBox controllers for PCs now. I think everytime a round of new consoles come out people are going to make this very same claim, but in a few years when PCs have outclassed consoles again, opinions will change. Until the next round of consoles that is

FredP
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 12:06
No.
PC gaming will never die.
People use pcs for a lot of things and they are intergrated into our society.
And there are always independant game makers who will make games thay play on older systems.
Even low end pcs work pretty good for retro gaming.
People have been predicting the death of pc gaming for years.
It's not going to happen.

Saikoro
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 12:09
The thing is, people buy PC's for more than just games. When someone buys a PC for work, then decides they want to play games, why would they buy a console when they already have the hardware needed to play games?


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Kentaree
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 12:10
Actually, I want to add something that I thought of when I read Fred's comments. It wont even get CLOSE until independent game developers are encouraged to develop for consoles, without having to pay huge licensing costs.
Developing for a PC is free to an extent, pick up a compiler, the OpenGL or DirectX SDK, and with a little magic you can make a game.

Fallout
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 12:11
There will always be PC games. It's pretty much a complete certainty, and it's kinda strange to me that this argument keeps cropping up.

Companies exploit any method they can of making money. So long as a game-capable platform exists, it will have games developed for it. Look at mobile phones, for example. For gaming, they're pretty bad, but you can't leave a market untapped like that, and this is why we have a million pretty dire games available for your mobile phone.

While everyone has a PC at home, games will be developed for them. Consoles would have to kill off the home PC before they kill off the PC games market. Once they've done that, they'll pretty much be PCs themselves.


Van B
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 12:16
As long as people use PC's, they'll use them to play games - whether it's Oblivion 5, or Solitaire, saying that the industry will be dead in 10 is really just an echo of that same statement that has been uttered every couple of years since the 90's.

Hardcore PC gamers like the customisable aspects of PC games, like mods and stuff like that - stuff we never see in console games and when we do, they won't have the same depth as PC game mods.

Some people just prefer PC gaming, some people have bought PC's just for the games, like flight sim games with elaborate joysticks, multiple screens etc - consoles satisfy the demand from one side of the market, while PC games will continure to provide more in-depth gameplay, more complex and niche games that consoles never bother with.

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Dave J
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 13:52
It's also relatively easy to port a console game to PC (especially from the xBox), so why wouldn't you?


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
Redmotion
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 13:53
Actually, my arguement doesn't hold water if you consider all types of gaming, fair enough. But, I guess that this makes Linux and the Mac 'gaming platforms' also.

Console developers grew up as PC gamers and at some point switched as a career move. Console gaming cannot survive without new blood growing up tinkering with PCs and joining the gaming industry via the PC.

I still see the new consoles holding back the quality of most PC games though.

lagmaster
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 13:59 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 14:00
pfft, i still prefer playing half-life 1 on pc compared to console games. it mostly depends on the game i think. some games are made for the console, but some are suited for the pc.

e.g. rts/simulation games, age of empires or sim city anyone? :p
i bet the majority of players for those games find it easier on the pc, because of it's point and click style.

lagmaster
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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 14:20 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 14:25
Quote: "1. Consoles are much cheaper and offer a better gaming experience for a majority of people who like games. (Even the PS3.)"


Not true, a PC and easily duplicate any console experiance, if you don't like the keyboard and mouse combo, go buy a gamepad, there's enough of them sold. Plus you get more choice, mid air controllers, wireless controllers, force feed back, and everyever else you could desire.

Also the gaming experiance is pretty much even, depending of cause of the hardware you have. PC games interfaces are often more intutative. The mouse pointer moves on screen and clicks, it's much easier and more accurate to use a mouse to click on something, rather than hitting a controller button that cycles though all the options on the screen, delaying a move.

As for cheaper, yes this is true, but you can't open a console and shove a new graphics card in it either.

Quote: "2. Top graphics hardware is now selling close to $1000 for the top spec. Noone will be playing the look-how-fast-my-PC-is game anymore."


So don't get top selling hardware, you certainly won't find it in an X-Box, get a mid range card instead, it will last you a couple of years at least. They are around the $120 range.

Quote: "3. Top processors are now being released at $1000 (eg: Quadcore)"


Duel cores aren't even properly supported yet in the vast majority of applications! Be realistic, just because something is top of the line, doesn't mean you have to get it. Get a duel core instead for about $140 and you'll again, have a system that will last a couple of years.

Quote: "4. The increasingly larger jumps in PC computing power are now about to make PCs become obsolete far quicker."


Rubbish. Game designers program what what's affordable now, and what's in service. What is the point of making Oblivion Direct X 10 only when few have vista or a DX 10 card? No 7xxx series nvidia cards will still be used in the next three years time even if they are not top of the line. I'm using a 5xxx series card, as are alot of others, it still manages to play the lastest tomb raider game without big problems. Oblivion is really ahead of it's time, and quite unusual compaired to 90% of games sold.

Quote: "5. The cost of developing games for such drastically different computer specs, plus the standard of detail that will need to be reached to satisfy top-end owners (and the very few of them who actually see and appreciate all that hard work) will mean they will always be available on console aswell and never take full advantage of the hardware."


Every single console game is developed on a PC. The only real difference for game programmers is the flexibility of graphical settings allowing the user to adjust his or her experiance.

Quote: "6. I predict that Crysis will be one of the last really good looking PC only games -"


There's a difference between PC Only, and not selling PC games. Most games are programmed in C, which is cross platform compatible. Also you don't need to pay sony/ microsoft, massive licence fees to make a game for a PC, so many companies develope for the PC frist, then when they have a product, port it over.

Quote: "7. - and the Games for Windows rating system won't save PC gaming."


What's to save? There's certainly still alot of PC games being sold!

Quote: "(I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong. )"


No one can truely predict the future. So only time will tell.

Finally, remember that consoles are getting more and more PC like with every generation. Hell the PS3 is based on Linux for heavens sake, with about a million programs and features. And they are suffering for it, the Nintendo Wii has alot more support because it still very much remains a simple to use game platform while sony's slowly becoming a nightmare. Sony has a bad habbit of not listening to it's customers, nintendo on the other hand, tend to pay more attention to the consumers.

If nintendo wins, then consoles will likely return to gaming only machines with perhaps a few features like internet and chat. If Sony win's then it will most likely end up becoming a PC like machine, overly complicated. In which case there will end up being a Sony, Apple, PC devide which PC will most likely win because it's flexible, and anyone can make them, wherehas you have to be an offical apple distrubuter to make and sell apple parts, which makes those parts much more expensive then PC parts.

Kentaree
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 14:34
Quote: "Most games are programmed in C, which is cross platform compatible"


I'm going to have to stop and disagree with you there. Firstly (and least importantly, most games are C++, not C, and don't say there's very little difference ), also different console/systems have different architectures, so they use different compilers which might or mightn't match (just try and compile a VC++ program under MingW) I wont even mention system libraries
Apart from that, I agree with most of your points

Van B
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 14:36
SimCity2000 was actually rather good on the old PSX, definately a decent effort, and the new LOTR RTS on the 360 looks amazing - but the point is this - kids love RTS games.

Your average 10 year old boy won't have a powerful PC, just a decent hope of getting a 360 for Xmas, so we'll see these games migrate more and more because RTS addict kids are bad news for PC users. Every weekend this month I've been without my PC, because of Rise and Fall, my son, and my younger brother - it's hell, so if buying him that LOTR RTS for 360 keeps him off my PC, then let me get my wallet.

XBox live makes RTS games more accesible, we'll see more and more RTS games on consoles, and more and more players - because this is one genre that is not aimed at kids yet, once it is, EA and all the big players will cash in. 'Spongebob Squarepants Generals' here we come...

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Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 14:36 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 14:41
I'm only just getting into C++ coding with microsoft visual express, so I'll bow to your knowledge on this matter. I'm still trying to work out how to make a plugin!

The other big advantage PC games have, is the ability to create much stronger communites though modding. Star Trek Bridge Commander for example, has brought most of the trekies together in one big community (www.bcfiles.com) who make tones of mods and enhancements for the game. Same with the Mirrowind and Oblivion games. While gaming groups will leave the PC, there will always be a strong core of PC gamers because it appeals to a certain kind of mind. Besides Bridge commander was release in 2001, name me a console game that has lasted that long (aside from final fantasy of cause, which is about the only reason I'd ever pick up a console control pad.)

transient
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 15:00 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 15:03
There would be many developers, especially in Japan, who've never touched PC games.

Both platforms make megabucks, but you can rely on the future of PC gaming with one phrase - MMORPG (Cybercrack).

Perhaps in ten years PC's will be more like consoles in their construction (i.e nVidia Box or something), but I think it's safe to say they'll still be here.

[edit] No hardcore RTS player is going to bother with consoles, so I wouldn't worry about this.

Van B
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 15:16
Quote: "There would be many developers, especially in Japan, who've never touched PC games."


You mean they learn C/C++ without compiling and running any code, they just port it straight to the console?. I can guarantee that most, by most I mean 99.9999999% of game programmers have to work on PC games in order to learn, people don't just go be a game programmer, programming console games is very far from entry level, they have to earn their stripes before tackling a commercial product, let alone a console product. In university they use PC's, maybe with Linux in some cases, but there's really no avoiding PC games when learning C++.

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transient
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 15:36
Many developers in Japan would not have worked on any PC games, they would have gone straight from uni to nintendo or sega or whatever.

Whether or not they learn by making PC games I don't know. Maybe I should have clarified it by saying commercial games.

I was responding to the comment that console developers grow up as pc gamers and then switch to consoles as a career move. This isn't necessarily true, especially in countries like Japan.


QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 16:14
All a console really is is just a dumbed down PC. PCs will always be around due to how we've already integrated them into society, and PCs are also always a step ahead of console technology. The PC that I built four years ago and that I'm still using is about just as powerful as an XBox 360. The next one that I build will be far superior to any console avaliable. Plus, I could never play a first person shooter with a joystick. *Shiver.* Such awful control.

Kentaree
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 16:48
Quoth, you're wrong there I'm afraid, currently the PS3 and XBox360 are as powerful, if not more powerful than current PCs (up to reasonable standards, maybe not if you spent around 10 grand on a PC).

One thing that always annoys the heck out of me is that because a PC matches or exceeds the specs of a console, you assume it's automatically faster. Consoles are specialised gaming machines, everything from the hardware to the operating system is optimised for gaming, while a PC is multi-functional.

Also, look at the processor and architecture in for example the PS3, it's vastly superior to the crappy x86 CISC standard in PCs.

Van B
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 17:04
Yeah, coding for standard architecture like consoles is fairly different, really you can take advantage of everything the hardware has to offer without compatibility worries. Can't remember the last time I played a PC game with no bugs, no patches, the QA with console games seems much better IMO, everyone can see the problems with dodgy console game releases, while your PC might be the only one with a particular bug. There's more convenience and peace of mind when you opt for a console game - because you don't have that compatibility worry.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 17:26
VanB: yuo don't have a 360 do you? CoD 2 is incredibly buggy, and there's been patches released for it over Xbox live. The latest patch even managed to break more stuff

Baggers
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 17:34
Quote: " Consoles are much cheaper and offer a better gaming experience for a majority of people who like games. (Even the PS3.)
"

This is the bit that boths me....fine you have your views but here you make an assumationg over all gamers based on your experiences...I personally prefer PC gaming thus far over console though I cant assume everyone is the same.

M.I.A is pending
Fallout
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 18:27
What the Baggers said. I've played Project Gotham on my mates 360 a few times now. Great for pick up and play two player and pretty good fun. Some of the mammoth long tracks are good endurances races. But it's got nothing on Live For Speed, as, being a PC game fan, I prefer the realism and accurate physics/online play of LFS over the fancy graphics and arcadey pick up and play nature of Project Gotham.

Simulators will always be most at home with the PC, or at least are at the moment. I dont know of a good simulator on a console.


El Goorf
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 18:36 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 18:37
consoles are monopolistic, and PCs arent.

that to any economist should translate to "consoles will never be as successful as PCs".

let me explain the translation:

consoles are specialised goods. they play games, not much else. There are high barriers to entry to the market, consoles can't be made by just anyone, in the same way pc's can. There are also high barrriers to supply for the developers of these games have to get hold of SDK's, pay royalties and such, making it harder to get into the martket with their products. With PC's, a 10 yr old kid with no money can put together a quick game.

now if i were able to draw graphs with some graph tool on the forum, i'd be drawing elasticity curves and the like, but there we go.

now, as we see, the reason consoles will never kill the pc in terms of gaming, is because consoles specialise too much in gaming... isnt that ironic, and quite the phenomina... infact, i could write up my own economic theory about this

but anyways, if console manufacturers made the products more open, in terms of software and hardware, perhaps selling a standard barebones with which people could upgrade and buy new parts for at while, and have sdk's freely available, and allow people to make games royalty free, then yes, consoles might just become a threat to the PC, but the fact is, nintendo, microsoft and sony are all money making corporations, and wouldn't ever dream of making their consoles this open. i reckon it'll be some time before we see such systems, considering how long its taken since the birth of pc's for them to reach this level of open-ness where even a 10 yr old kid can build a system or put together a game, and pc's werent even that close-nick to begin with, whereas consoles today are still as close-nick as they were since the very first ones, bar the xbox where some elite managed to install linux on it.
Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 19:12 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 19:24
Quote: "Playstation 3 specifications (from Gamespot)

CPU: Cell Processor PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
--1 VMX vector unit per core
--512KB L2 cache
--7 x SPE @3.2GHz
--7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
--7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
--*1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy
--Total floating point performance: 218 gigaflops

GPU RSX @ 550MHz
--1.8 TFLOPS floating point Performance
--Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels
--Multi-way programmable parallel Floating point shader pipelines
--Sound Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell-based processing)

MEMORY
256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz
256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz
System Bandwidth Main RAM-- 25.6GB/s
VRAM--22.4GB/s
RSX-- 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read)
SB2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)

SYSTEM FLOATING POINT PERFORMANCE:
2 teraflops

STORAGE
--HDD Detachable 2.5" HDD slot x 1
--I/O--USB Front x 4, Rear x 2 (USB2.0)
--Memory Stickstandard/Duo, PRO x 1
--SD standard/mini x 1
--CompactFlash(Type I, II) x 1

COMMUNICATION
--Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2)
--Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g
--Bluetooth--Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR)
--ControllerBluetooth (up to 7)
--USB 2.0 (wired)
--Wi-Fi (PSP)
--Network (over IP)

AV OUTPUT
Screen size 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
HDMI out x 2
AV multi out x 1
Digital out (optical) x 1

DISC MEDIA
CD
PlayStation CD-ROM
PlayStation2 CD-ROM
CD-DA
CD-DA (ROM),
CD-R,
CD-RW
SACD Hybrid (CD layer),
SACD HD
DualDisc (audio side)
DualDisc (DVD side)
PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM
PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM
DVD-ROM
DVD-R
DVD-RW
DVD+R,
DVD+RW
Blu-ray Disc
PlayStation 3 BD-ROM
BD-ROM
BD"


I doubt this spec will seem so wonderful in a years time.

3.2Ghz CPU, and 700mhz RAM? What's so great about that? DDR II memory is anything between 667 and 800, heck some go up to 1066! Depends on how much you want to spend. The damn things using a modified 7xxx series graphics card as well. It's hard to do a direct comparison because it doesn't use the same standards and componants. But aside from the Blu-Ray I'm not massively impressed. The Wifi hasn't been future proofed, we're on 802.11n standards now which provides a more realiable connection. A Bluetooth dongle can be purchase for anywhere between £5 and £25 adding support. It lacks firewire, still sticking with USB 2.0. The eithernet isn't bad, it's up to spec. The average cheap Floppy disk with combined memory card reader supports far more standards. Oh yes, and the majority of motherboards today are at least 6.1 audio, some even support 7.1! Oh yes, and finally, the resolution! I think 1024x768 is the minimum standard, and alot run with 1280x1024 these days. Heck play older games and you can go about the 2000 mark! Meaning that the quaility of PC vs Console is either very close, with the possibilty of, for pixel vs pixel, being much higher. And of cause, the more dots there are on the screen, the finer the image!

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 19:21
I remember someone saying something like this very recently...

Like people have said, console gaming will almost certainly never replace pc gaming as a whole. Long before that could ever happen even, all these similar technologies will have merged, and the console will be the pc, and visa versa. Not to mention every other electronic device in your house, as well as all communication devices.

Peter H
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 19:39
Well, since people will always own PCs to do stuff like their jobs or social networking, games will be made for them.

If consoles start to do stuff like that, then they are no longer consoles, but really un-upgradeable PCs

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 21:11
Quote: "If consoles start to do stuff like that, then they are no longer consoles, but really un-upgradeable PCs "


Ahh, you mean apple mac's then , with a sony badge.

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 21:46
Imo - anyone who thinks they can accurately predict what will happen in the next ten years in technological terms is bordering on foolish.

To put that in perspective:

In 1996, the PlayStation had been launched the year before - the first console to be 'cool' enough that people other than geeks and nerds could admit to playing it. Quite close to that time, Nintendo released the Nintendo 64 - remember the N64? Mario64 anyone?

Tamagotchi's are released - Pokemon was invented the year before in Japan.

Ultima Online, the worlds first actually popular graphical MMORPG won't be released until a year later. That's right - MMORPG's as we kind of think of them now, don't even exist yet. (MUD's not withstanding, I'm sure the MUD fans understand where I make the distinction).


So if anyone has ideas as to where the games industry will be in another 10 years - I doff my disbelieving hat at them.

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 21:57
Ah, but we can still try and guess. I'd hate to think about about what the universe would be to me like if I didcn't guess at anything.

Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 22:18 Edited at: 30th Nov 2006 22:19
Cost should never be part of the argument... way back when computers were normally $3,000 bucks we still bought them and made games for them. Computer games are here to stay... no matter what the cost.
Kenjar
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 23:32
And PC's have been around since the mid 80's, I suspect they'll keep going thoughout my whole life.

Kentaree
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 23:36
That can be arranged *cocks gun*

Matt Rock
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Posted: 1st Dec 2006 00:34
Quote: "anyone who thinks they can accurately predict what will happen in the next ten years in technological terms is bordering on foolish. "

Except Ray Kurzweil. That guy's a genius!

I think that somewhere down the road we'll see the PC become a waste of space... as much as I hate to say it or even think it. Cell phones, iPods, gaming consoles, technology as a whole is pretty much moving away from desktop PC technology. People want something small and portable that can do everything and anything, from playing high-quality games (and by that I mean the mass public's perception of high-quality, which doesn't necessarily border what any of us think is high quality), to checking e-mail, to doing spreadsheets. A handy little pocket-sized device that can work as a phone, music player/ sound recorder, and can do everything a desktop PC can do, from playing games to calculating spreadsheets. I'm willing to bet it's only a matter of time before we see that, and I'm positive we'll see it in our lifetimes... but 10 years from now seems a bit too soon. Maybe twenty years or so, that I could agree with.

As for PC gaming, it's been tetering on the edge of oblivion since, what, 1995 or so? Or at least that's what the media tends to relay to us. Every time a new generation of consoles comes out, someone at some magazine reports "the end of PC gaming," but then a year or two later, some awe-inspiring PC title rocks the industry and challenges console game sales. But this isn't to say that I think PC games are going to live forever... they won't. They've already slipped out of the mainstream to a certain degree. In the past decade or so, consoles have steadily become more popular than PC games. Most people (and by this I'd say, oh, 99% of the populace, rough but probably incredibly-accurate guess) don't know how to install RAM. Someone like that isn't going to drop tons of money on upgrading their PC so it can handle the latest awesome game. They'd rather just buy a console, plug it into their TV, and start blowing up aliens. Consoles are far easier to use for most people. There's no installations to worry about, or patches to download every other month, or hardware conflicts to screw around with. You just open the box, plug it in, and start racing/ shooting/ exploding. And the more technology keeps people multi-tasking, the more cell phones and ipods and handheld gaming devices emulate the qualities of PCs, I think it's only a matter of time before PC games are left for dead by the mainstream industry. In fact, we're already starting to see that. Developers and publishers are already pushing most of their resources toward console game development, and in turn, they're helping PC games grow less profitable. I'm not saying I want PC games to die... I love PC gaming... but to think they'll last forever? I'd say "don't keep your hopes up." But I also wouldn't try to stamp a date on that... when it happens, it happens.


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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Dec 2006 05:22
Quote: "People want something small and portable"


Yes, but not for their main PCs. Who wants to stare at a 5-inch screen and write an essay? I think little pocket PCs are great for checking email and getting stock quotes on the train. But for a main PC, I can't ever see it getting cell-phone sized. If anything our PCs are getting bigger--- bigger towers, bigger screens, etc.

Raven
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Posted: 1st Dec 2006 05:41
Quote: "If anything our PCs are getting bigger--- bigger towers, bigger screens, etc."


I'd say double edged sword; technology on the whole is remaining the same size while power increases. The most visible difference has been the introduction of TFT(LCD) Monitors... it's all due to people wanting bigger screens, they always have without huge costs and the huge space taken up.

They want their computers very similar, they want the power; but not the size. Reason computers have remained fairly similar for so long is because of the upgradability and expandability.

It's what killed the Amiga and Atari PCs... they just didn't change with the demands of the public. They were always far smaller than desktop PCs and honestly on-par powerwise with the counter-parts.

Doubt we'll ever see the PC disappear, or the gaming market for it. Simply reason is, just because the retail industry might (doubtable but suppose it's possible to) disappear; it's such an open development forum that it would just cause a comeback for the shareware developers who i'm fairly sure are waiting everyday hoping to wake up in a world where that's true... unfortunately not.

PC developers can always push the bounderies and let technology catch up... it's a free forum for ideas, but consoles aren't.

Oh and let's not forget that business' rely heavily on PCs for day to day work. So unless the Playstation 3, Xbox 360 or Wii can replace these in the workplace... not likely that they will ever force out the PC, and honestly this would them make them PCs themselves.

What's more without the PC industry the consoles would stagnate, because of the constant PC hardware competition the fund keep comming in to hardware developer to keep the competition going... if a console was released every 5years, what would these hardware developers do? how would they be able to compete to upgrade hardware in such leaps and bounds, as well as retain finances to be able to offer the console manufactures what they're looking for without the cost of the consoles going up to take on the extra R&D costs.

think about it seriously, neither industry will ever kill the other; simply because they NEED each other to survive.

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The admiral
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Posted: 1st Dec 2006 21:46
I heavily doubt this there will likely be a merge with pc and console games working together having similar systems like the acheivement system that xbox360 has which can be accessed on a computer. Pc gaming will make a come back a bit with vista being released and besides people like the ability to upgrade their machine over a stock standard playing feild.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 1st Dec 2006 23:28
If they make computers smaller as I think they will, I doubt people will rely on the tiny screen on the actual device... if I'm right, I'm willing to bet the device itself will be connected to a television set or something, maybe by an encrypted wireless connection.

Quote: "Doubt we'll ever see the PC disappear, or the gaming market for it. Simply reason is, just because the retail industry might (doubtable but suppose it's possible to) disappear; it's such an open development forum that it would just cause a comeback for the shareware developers who i'm fairly sure are waiting everyday hoping to wake up in a world where that's true... unfortunately not.
"

I have to disagree there. If the big dogs like EA and Ubi stopped making PC games, wouldn't that in-turn hurt indie developers like us? As it stands, the PC gaming market seems to be having a hard time collecting fresh gamers. We're seeing a rapid decline in PC game sales across the board, with a few shining examples, like the BF series for example, breaking the mold. But let's say for humor's sake that EA and Ubi and the other big-name PC game developers dropped the platform entirely in favor for the console market. As it stands, typical independent games don't rake in millions of sales, so I think that indie developers would struggle even more when people are no longer upgrading their PCs for the next Halflife game. Indie games would survive for a rather long time, and I'm pretty sure they'll outlive mainstream PC games, but for how long? And how would they be able to innovate a few years later if people aren't dropping loads of cash on new video cards and whatnot? I think it all comes around to our mutual desire to see indie games become more popular in terms of sales and all that... if indie games could grab a bigger market share and our titles could thus infiltrate more homes, we could invigorate the PC industry. Okay, done rambling for now lol.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Antidote
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Posted: 1st Dec 2006 23:51
PC Gaming is never going to die. Console gaming actually died at one point (before it was reinvigorated by Nintendo). Guess what type of gaming stayed alive? PC Gaming. The thing is, is that making PC games is much more accessible especially to smaller development teams. For example, companies like BioWare that started off with about a 12 man team made a PC game first because they needed some money to expand. PC games don't require expensive dev kits and large budgets to complete.

More importantly is that most of you who say PC gaming will die are drawing an arbitrary line at what is a game and what is not.[sarcasm] Did you know that minesweeper is a game?[/sarcasm] What about the grandmas that check their email and occasionally play a round of solitaire? Simply put, the only time that PC gaming will die is when the PC dies.


Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 00:51
Quote: "PC games don't require expensive dev kits and large budgets to complete."


You're right about the first part The average commercial game costs over $10 million nowadays, PC or otherwise.

Antidote
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 01:00
Well yeah the budgets for PC games are probably pretty similar, but still with a PC you just write some code, compile, and you're started. Continue with the game and when you deem it complete, market and release it. Not as simple with consoles.


SunnyKatt
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 01:48
LOL are you KIDDING?I'd prefer pc games over consoles ANY day. in fact, i think console games are actually going along farther than console games! more expensive stuff for the computer, the better the games. in 10 years it wont be dead, itll just be awesome...
conterstike: source 18...
OR-
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but just my ideas, personally
and computer games are easier to mod

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Raven
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 04:11
Quote: "You're right about the first part The average commercial game costs over $10 million nowadays, PC or otherwise."


actually I think both parts are right.
I mean think about it for a second, where does the majority of the cost from these $10million+ game developments come from?

many of the major costs are from team size, middleware, hardware, software licenses, and office space.

these are many aspects that independant developers just don't need to worry about. also don't see any reason why independant developers aren't capable of achieving the same result as the commercial developers with less resources.

after all, Half-Life 2 aparently required 70 people to be involved over 5years in order to get it to shelves. If you pick apart what they actually have there; the engine isn't as impressive as what the independant programming communities are creating, there is a shockingly small amount of real media in the game.

what took them all that time and effort was compatibility, steam, and modifiability. just no reason for it.. it could've been easily created within 2years with their original team of 12 dedicated developers.

hell, Perfect Dark Zero was created within 18months from scratch from when the 360 alpha kits were sent out by a team of 20people.
It looks and plays a damn sight better than Half-Life 2 without even anywhere close to the same bug issues. This is while learning brand new technology, and underdeveloped platform attributes without the use of middleware.

I mean personally I find it very impressive that given the resources and pressure from Microsoft for the game to be a launch title the guys and gals who worked on that game were able to finish it with a month to spare.

Alright so they're not an independant team, but the budget for the game was far far lower than that of most current games in development. Somewhere around $2million, compared to EAs offerings which start at $10million per title and just grow.

Honestly don't see why the independant community wouldn't be able to keep PC gaming alive even if the most unlikely event that the big publishers just stopped supporting the platform... which honestly makes little sense given Microsoft will continue providing xbox's which run on the same technology as their windows platforms.

also for those who remember Amiga, they're still going - maybe not strong; but considering they've not had a new system for almost 8years and news from the corporation itself for almost 4years; it's surprising that it is still an industry just as profitable as the shareware community.

might not be much but, still worth it. honestly I would strongly suggest never underestimate what can happen with a system.

hell the Dreamcast has just has it's final game released in Japan... craziness but true.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 17:55
The only thing that is hurting PC gamming today, is that many are co-developed for consoled. The Oblivion game, while a fun game to play, does suffer from a console orantated interface. The way the menus are accessed, is clearly console in in nature. I sold my copy of X3 online for the same reason. PC gammers have a different mentality to console gammers. Titles like tomb raider can get away with it, being very simplistic, yet oddly addictive in nature, but for RPG's, Space sims, and other more complex games, a console style interface often makes it frustrating experiance.

Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 18:10
But what exactly is a gammer? No offense, but I think you should use Firefox's spell checker. I do, and it saves me a few typos.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 20:02 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2006 20:03
For posting on a public forum? Heaven forbid! It's neither important, nor required most of the time. I spend enough time watching my gramma and spelling, when going through that accursed book of mine. The last thing I'm going to do is pay close attention to such things in what I consider to be leisure time.

Agent Dink
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 21:33
Quote: "I spend enough time watching my gramma and spelling"


grammar* ... just had to point it out sorry

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Kenjar
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 23:47 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2006 23:53
Ahh! I hope you at least reported Benjamin to the police, surely he was behind you holding a pistol to your head?

Just be greatful that 'gramma' was the largest extent of my catastrophe's within the last posting.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 03:11
Quote: "The thing is, is that making PC games is much more accessible especially to smaller development teams."

Quote: "Honestly don't see why the independant community wouldn't be able to keep PC gaming alive even if the most unlikely event that the big publishers just stopped supporting the platform... which honestly makes little sense given Microsoft will continue providing xbox's which run on the same technology as their windows platforms."


While you guys make good points, you have to remember that if there aren't customers buying big games on the platform, there won't be customers buying the smaller ones either. I don't want PC games to die... it would ruin my plans for the next few decades . But at the same time I'm convinced that as consoles get more and more popular, the PC market is going to decrease in size, to a point where it's no longer profitable for the big corporations to pour money into it... at which point all of us indie people are going to have a dilemma on our hands the likes of which few people can predict. The platform's market has already taken a massive dump over the past decade or so, because for most consumers, it's easier and far cheaper to play games on consoles than PC's, and for a number of reasons, too:

* Most consumers don't know how to build their own computers, and they don't feel compelled to learn, either. Do you know how many computers get returned to the manufacturer over something as simple as a RAM upgrade?
* In terms of in-game control, for a console you just need the controller... for a PC you need to learn all of the keyboard and mouse commands, or purchase additional peripherals. To most of us (including myself), we prefer having all of the options that a keyboard can present. But most consumers don't rightly care about options... they plug in, blow stuff up, and move along.
* A lot of people don't understand the system requirements for PC games. With consoles, any game you purchase for that console is definitely going to work when you pop it in... PC's? Again, most people don't know much about their computers. They don't know what sort of video card they've got or how fast their processor is.

I could go on and on but I don't want to make a super-post as usual... I have a thread to make hehe. But while I definitely don't want to see PC games obliterated, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in our lifetimes... in fact, I'd be kind of shocked if it didn't happen. It just seems to make sense to me that PC games won't be able to last, so long as consoles keep competing... and winning.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"

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