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Geek Culture / Microsoft, Vista, and Indy Developers.

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 03:28
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Quote: "because I'm certainly not giving up independent game development because Microsoft wants me to"


Please point me to where they say they want to get rid of indie game development.

Quote: "360 (which is really all XNA is good for at the end of the day)"


Actually no, you can compile your XNA games to run in Windows as well.

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Code Dragon
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 23:50 Edited at: 17th Feb 2007 23:54
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It looks like Vista's going to be a real pain, but it's only a matter of time before all the thousands of bugs dating back to Windows 95 code catch up with them. Either they put their billion of money where their mouth is and make bug-free feature rich nonrestictive OSes or lose to Apple.

Quote: "You can't deny game dev being a geek thing, well you can, but it's healthy not to delude yourself "


You don't have to be a geek to make games, what's more cool than video games? Not much. There's this one kid in my class who's as far from being a geek as can be (talks about video game constantly, sometimes a real pain to get him to be quiet), and he thinks it's so cool that I make games. The "game dev is a geek thing" idea is an oxymoron in my opinion. People who calling themselves degradatory terms like "geek" confuse me.

Line Counter - a personal code helper for your DBP project
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Feb 2007 00:03
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Aside from the facetiousness of my comment (Hence the 'don't delude yourself', I'm no where near arrogant enough to actually mean 'don't delude yourself' ) you don't have to be a geek to do geek things, I'm sure perfectly 'hip' people make games.

Quote: "The "game dev is a geek thing" idea is an oxymoron in my opinion. People who calling themselves degradatory terms like "geek" confuse me.
"


"Geek" is only derogatory if it's used that way, but I don't, I probably could define exactly what 'geek' is, but only tell you what is geeky and what isn't, the best I could define 'geek' are technology fanatics/lovers/know it alls etc. It's only derogatory to those who go around yelling 'Oi Geek! Give me your lunch money, or I'll punch your lights out!' similarly the word 'gay', that's not derogatory, just is used in that way.

Quote: "and he thinks it's so cool that I make games."


Back when I used The Games Factory, a couple of people who found out that I did it, thought it was pretty cool. But who says geeks or geeky things can't be cool?

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Feb 2007 00:08
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Well I can't find anything in this article or elsewhere that endorses our efforts to make games. In Game Developer there's an article about Microsoft doing something for programmers with Vista but I haven't read it yet, but otherwise, I've yet to hear or see anything that makes me feel like they care about the Indie community, outside of their XNA stuff, which we shouldn't be forced to use.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Feb 2007 01:29 Edited at: 18th Feb 2007 01:30
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Quote: "outside of their XNA stuff, which we shouldn't be forced to use."


Nobody's forcing us, are they? We don't have to use it. This is the first time a console manufacturer has actively allowed and supported development (that I know of)

Quote: "Well I can't find anything in this article or elsewhere that endorses our efforts to make games."


Just because they don't explicitly say anything about it, doesn't mean they're locking all of us out. That's just ridiculous.

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 18th Feb 2007 02:24
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Quote: "I mean have you ever called their tech support hotline and talked with an actual human being? I haven't been able to yet."


I do about every year when I reformat my PC. It comes up that I have already activated my WinXP Pro and I have to call the number. Upon entering my information into the computerized setup it laughs at me and puts me on hold. Then this person who speaks english (but not redneck) in a wierd indian sounding accent comes on and sorts it out for me. Unless she's some kind of bot or something 0_o

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Feb 2007 02:41
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Almost the entire article is about how we'll end up being locked out. If we don't have an ESRB rating, we won't get our games into the Game Explorer... that's pretty much the same as locking us out. It seems like Microsoft doesn't want the indie community competing with their games (not that we do yet). XNA just doesn't interest me, it's like a more expensive version of Sony's Net Yaroze but with modern features and whatnot. Culmatively, everything I've heard about Vista makes me worried about the future of TGC and the games that TGC members are able to produce. Vista is going to dramatically limit and deteriorate our already-comparatively miniscule audiences, or at least that's the impression I've been given by everything I've heard about it so far. If this isn't true and I'm worrying for no reason, I definitely want to hear the good news about Vista, but either no one will tell me the good news for indie developers who don't want to use XNA, or there is no good news to tell. And at this point, I'm getting pretty desperate to hear something positive about this new OS.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Feb 2007 03:02 Edited at: 18th Feb 2007 03:03
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Quote: "If we don't have an ESRB rating, we won't get our games into the Game Explorer... that's pretty much the same as locking us out."


No, you can still run the games like you do in XP. Not having them in the Games Explorer is not a big deal People aren't stupid--- they will know where to find your game, just like they do now with XP/2k/98, etc.

Quote: "XNA just doesn't interest me, it's like a more expensive version of Sony's Net Yaroze but with modern features and whatnot."


The PC version of XNA is FREE. The 360 version costs $99 a year. Like I said before, MS is the first console manufacturer to ever do something like this. They could have done like Nintendo and Sony and lock out indie development altogether now couldn't they.

Quote: "And at this point, I'm getting pretty desperate to hear something positive about this new OS."


How about taking a breather pill. The OS was just released when-- a month ago? Why the impatient rush? Your games still work on Windows. Vista is pretty rough right now, but it just came out.

And by the way, XNA on a 360 is NOT A BIG DEAL. The Xbox Live market is *miniscule* compared to the indie market on the PC. Why get yourself in a twist over XNA? Good ol' C++ will work on virtually any operating system. DBP is going to work on Vista.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 02:24
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There's no license fee for the PC version of XNA? I thought there was one, I guess I heard that wrong. But after reading this article, then reading the article by Ron Fosner in Game Developer Magazine, I'm left thinking Vista is going to shut out indie developers, or at least that's how it's going to be for a pretty long time by the look of things. The user restrictions are going to limit the mobility for a lot of developers, even some mainstream studios, and they're going to definitly hinder Indie studios as well. I'm just saying, I haven't heard anything good about Vista yet... it's all been bad, and no one seems to have anything nice to say about it.

XNA's xbox feature isn't new, net yaroze did it back in the day, allowing people to develop for the PS1. I wish they allowed it for newer consoles though, it would be pretty cool to make a PS3 game (although it would be a major headache, lol).


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 02:36
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Quote: "XNA's xbox feature isn't new, net yaroze did it back in the day, allowing people to develop for the PS1."


Net Yaroze can't be considered the same thing. IIRC it was a BASIC language that was never fully supported by Sony, and it lacked power. With XNA you can technically make Halo.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 03:02
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True, but for its day it was definitely super cool. I mean none of the other console makers at that time had anything like it, not to my knowledge anyway.

I guess I should take a look at XNA, although I'm going to remain skeptical of it until I see a few games made on the platform. I've heard very mixed reviews of it so far, but I don't entirely understand how it works. Is it based on C or is there no programming involved with it?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 03:18
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Right now you can only use C# with XNA.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 04:48
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I took a bold step... bold for me anyway... and installed XNA. I don't think I'll be using it over DBP, mostly because I'm a hardcore TGC loyalist , but at some point I'll end up playing with it so I'm better informed about what it is and what it can do. But still, I don't know how I feel about Vista, and no one has told me what Vista can do better than XP and how that effects indie game development in a positive way. I know Vista is still young, but there must be *something* positive to say about it, and if there isn't *anything* positive for game development yet, then I'll be sure to be the last person on earth to migrate to the new OS, and that's only if I can't avoid said migration entirely


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 06:59
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Have fun with XNA--- make sure you go through the beginner tutorials, especially if you've never programmed in a C-scripting language before. C# is pretty nice though

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Peter H
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 14:27 Edited at: 19th Feb 2007 14:28
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Quote: "*anything* positive for game development"

how about, most people will be on it at some point in time.

(not me though, until they drag me kicking and screaming)

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 20:13
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lol Peter I suppose that is definitly a benefit!

I'm kind of confused about XNA, I installed the Visual C# Express, and then the XNA game studio, but I can't tell the difference between them. They look like the same exact editor. I'm wondering if I messed something up during my install. When I load up XNA it just seems to load the Visual C# editor. I'm definitely scratching my head.

It would be pretty neat to learn C#, it would be nice to understand all of the code examples in Game Dev magazine lol. Of course I'd have to remain a DB loyalist , but learning more languages can't hurt. We did C+ in college, I'm wondering how much of this I'll pick up easily and how much is going to be completely foreign to me.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Antidote
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 20:38
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XNA is an extension of C#. Basically when you create a new project it gives you extra options like "Windows Game Project" and "XBox 360 Game Project". It is the same editor, but adds some new options. For example if you pay the 100 dollar fee then it allows you to export to your 360 (if you have one of course).


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Feb 2007 20:48
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I personally think that the only way to make a Windows installer secure is to make them a hardcoded system; the files that are run are simply like ZIP packages, and a wizard built into windows puts the files exactly where you tell them to, nowhere else. No other program would be allowed to write EXEs without a signing from M$. Inflexible, but the only way to do it.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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VR2
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 00:23
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Net Yarozee was C/C++ using Code Warrior tools & others, not BASIC and Sony put quite alot behind it to get it moving. I understand there was quite a thriving community behind it but the Internet was young then so the numbers were nothing compared to those downloadinng XNA right now.

Top amature titles each month were published in a magazine (the Official playstation magazine). I recall some of them like "Dog Tailz" were pretty good, but not by the standard XNA is now, Microsoft have not only made dev for a current gen console possible, but have also made it easy, well, as easy as this stuff has ever been anyway, DB aside.

Having said that, I had a support email come through today for a chap who had just upgraded to Vista, and now my game would not run for him (missing Dll or somesuch - this was a game written in DB Classic DX7). I did some digging and it appears that no old games ( < DX 10) will run on Vista!!

Surely not?!
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 19:02
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I hope Vista dies and everyone does the right thing of switching back to XP. They've recked Windows.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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heartbone
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 19:47
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Unfortunately NeX Windows XP will expire in the next two years.

Your Wintel future will be on Win2K, Win98SE or a Linux distribution.
Unless somebody saves the world from M$ and writes an executable that can serve as a XP (re)activator.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 20:51
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Yah, heaven forbid Microsoft should ever introduce new versions of their software. That would be a travesty, and should be reserved only for every other software company in existence including TGC, Adobe, Corel, IBM, Red Hat, etc.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 21:02
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Quote: "Unfortunately NeX Windows XP will expire in the next two years."


You mean it will stop functioning? Or it just won't be supported at all?

If you are saying it will stop functioning... that's evil.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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David R
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 21:13
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Quote: "Unfortunately NeX Windows XP will expire in the next two years.
Your Wintel future will be on Win2K, Win98SE or a Linux distribution."


Anyone else see the irony in this? You're saying XP will 'expire' as if out of date or no longer supported... and then you urge the uptake of 98SE or Win2k..? Both of which are unsupported and completely out of date

(barring Linux of course, which is constantly evolving)


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 21:14
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Well, what I think MS should have done, is create a major XP upgrade, where there is a major update to the security, so extra features, like custom themes (for those itching for flashiness) bug clean ups in XP and upgrade the software to survive the next generation of content, so perhaps Windows XP Version 2 or similar, or whatever they could name it.

It would make their long time using customers happy, but they won't be able to draw in huge amounts of cash and have people want to have the 'Latest OS' rather than some patch, which is healthy on their market. But it would make Windows better IMO.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 22:02
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Obviously if it made more sense they would have done it that way.

But rewriting the Windows source from scratch, which they apparently did for Vista, makes more sense in the long run.

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the_winch
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 22:34
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Quote: "But rewriting the Windows source from scratch, which they apparently did for Vista, makes more sense in the long run."


According to this (and loads of other sources) it wasn't rewritten from scratch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Windows_Vista

I don't think I've actually seen anything that says they rewrote it from scratch. Doing so and ending up with vista would be a massive waste of time and money. Chuck out many years of work that cost who knows what and you better produce something radically better or the shareholders at least will eat you alive.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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Antidote
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 22:46
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It wasn't a complete rewrite, but it was a MAJOR overhaul.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 00:30
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Quote: "Obviously if it made more sense they would have done it that way.

But rewriting the Windows source from scratch, which they apparently did for Vista, makes more sense in the long run."


Well, you can't say that the company does what makes most sense, I mean making Vista meant more money, but would it necessarily mean something better for the customers in the long run.

I'm sure they could use the main functions of XP and great improve and build upon them, whilst coding in parts that allow for it to handle more powerful software, as they did code a 64 bit version of XP and I don't see why they couldn't build further. I'm afraid if it makes more sense in the long run, I'm not seeing it.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:19
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Quote: "but would it necessarily mean something better for the customers in the long run."


That, my friend, is often NEVER the intention of a company--- and that's not just Microsoft

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heartbone
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 04:32
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Quote: "You mean it will stop functioning? Or it just won't be supported at all? "

My guess Agent Dink, is that the OS will be supported for a few years after it expires,
but only if you pay extra.

Support e.g. reactivation.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 09:47
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Nonsense. None of the Windows OS' expire (i.e. cease to work), so XP will be no different.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 20:45
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Quote: "That, my friend, is often NEVER the intention of a company--- and that's not just Microsoft"


True, it's Sad, but true, they'd probably increase their user base though if they did, I'm probably never going to buy Windows Vista, even if it means abandoning Direct X based games and indi dev, I'll go for Irrlicht and Torque, I've got both and started learning them, I'm sure there are plenty of people have the same attitude, if they decided to improve the OS and not got for a new in your face waste of customer's money, then I would stick with Windows. (I'm sure if they just did what I suggested with a gimmick, they'd probably have the same or similar effect without losing customers)

But I don't know what the company sees and their benefits, so chances are, my opinions aren't the best interest of the company, but it would be nicer if they cared more for the customers than money, but I can see that not happening, money is always more important to people really.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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empty
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:03
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Quote: "Nonsense. None of the Windows OS' expire (i.e. cease to work), so XP will be no different."

He means support will expire. How long it'll take till this happens depends very much on the Vista sales I would think.
If "support" includes the activation process is an interesting question, though.

Play Nice! Play Basic!
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 21:17
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Yes. All this will do is increase the usage of craxx0r and haxx0r kits if you ask me. Microsoft will lose money.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Moondog
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 23:39 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2007 23:43
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after seeing this guy:
http://gamerevolution.com/goodie/commercials/hes_the_computer_man
who wouldn't switch to mac!!??

i mean, comeon bill, you should of stopped after this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeSh822S1f4

even he loves MAC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uau0aIbrzkQ

MOONDOG
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Moondog
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 23:47
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and then: LOL!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-_xAKSWkdE&NR

MOONDOG
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Moondog
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 23:59
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sorry, last one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QdGt3ix2CQ&mode=related&search=


MOONDOG
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 14:03
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Come on, don't try to say Mac are the best on these forums, always starts a bloody debate about it, I love Mac, others love PC, I use one, it suits my needs, we don't need another one of these threads again, please! It's torture.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Flatlander
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 16:52
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My sister is purchasing a new computer at the end of the month and it will have vista loaded. Will be anxious to test it out for real (if she lets me)?

As opposed to Highlander.
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 17:25
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I'm awaiting my free upgrade copy of Vista in the mail. Hopefully receive it soon. I'm anxious to see what it's all about and why it's so hated

I have no signature...
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 17:31
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Quote: "Well, what I think MS should have done, is create a major XP upgrade, where there is a major update to the security,"

A paid upgrade I presume? How else are they going to make that money?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Chris K
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 17:32
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Quote: "I'm probably never going to buy Windows Vista"


Care to put money on that?

I'll go £500 you're using Vista within 5 years.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 17:52
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Quote: "True, it's Sad, but true, they'd probably increase their user base though if they did"

Boy, if I owned a company I sure wouldn't employ you as manager to drive it into the ground.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Vampiric
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 17:54
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XNA doesn't even work properly with vista anyway. From all my tests I've had bugs with XNA, DBPro and Irrlicht when running example programs. All of these bugs don't apear whenever I run the examples on XP. Oh well it looks like I might have to use DirectX. I bet that has bugs too though

Computer says n00bed
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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 18:26
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I thought VS.NET wasn't compatible with Vista yet anyways. Or is that not the case now?

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David R
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 19:29
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Quote: " I thought VS.NET wasn't compatible with Vista yet anyways. Or is that not the case now?"


2005 SP1 works partially, although it's still riddled with bugs. I found it completely unusable myself, since the Intellisense kept corrupting itself and hanging the entire program


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 20:19
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Quote: "
Care to put money on that?

I'll go £500 you're using Vista within 5 years.
"


Not really. Even if you're right, I'd just steal it from the shop, as a means to prove you wrong. No, I most likely won't, as within those 5 years, I'm most likely going to make a switch to Apple Mac.

Quote: "A paid upgrade I presume? How else are they going to make that money?
"


Paid of course, I don't expect major upgrades to be given away like lollipops.

Quote: "Boy, if I owned a company I sure wouldn't employ you as manager to drive it into the ground."


I'd keep customer satisfaction as a high priority, but I wouldn't put the company at risk, I'd use my major upgrades idea to keep the company running and the customers happy, rather than gimmicks to have explosions of money running in, business owners in other countries have the ability to keep their business running and keeping the highest customer satisfaction, so why do we need to fill our pockets with gold, as long as you as the owner are comfortable, the company has a stable income, the employees are paid enough and customers are happy, I understand that to be enough, to ask for more in my books is being greedy.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Matt Rock
19
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Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 24th Feb 2007 01:40
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I'll do everything I can to avoid using Vista, but unfortunately, resistance is futile . It'll definitely take a few years for me to make the switch, but I dunno, maybe they'll release a service pack that makes it more bearable for me to use it or something.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
20
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Joined: 6th Aug 2004
Location: != null
Posted: 24th Feb 2007 02:38
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Vista wont install for me. Had a beautiful shiny Ultimate Version of Vista placed in the CD drive. Every time i try to install in after boot up, my comp restarts near the end of the installation!
Its odd though because Beta2 and RC1 worked fine!

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