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3 Dimensional Chat / A New Model Pack System: Modular Entity Contruction Sets (MECs)

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TechLord
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Posted: 20th Mar 2009 05:38 Edited at: 20th Apr 2010 08:27


Dear 3D Artists,

There is no doubt that Model Packs provide awesome artwork for an affordable price. The major concern that has influenced my decision in purchasing such packs is knowing that identical models are being used by others in their games. It is strongly desired that my game, has its own distinctive look. In the past, I've purchased packs and modified textures to provide some variation, but, thats simply not enough.

Procedural Animation
http://aigamedev.com/open/articles/planting-the-spores-of-procedural-animation/

What I propose here is A New Model Pack System concept that would provide both 3D Artist and Game Developer with greater amount of flexibility and variety. I call this system, Modular Entity Construction Sets (MECs).

MECs provides modelled/textured Parts that can be assembled to create countless Entity variations. Several Model Constuction Sets for Buildings and Structures are already available, MECs takes the concept further providing Parts for Character Bodies/Heads, Furniture Props, FireArm Weapons, Melee Weapons, Trees/Plants, Vehicles/Crafts, and Machines.



Open Standard: The MECS Data Format should support bone and key frame animation and simplify assembly of parts using a Open Standard for Labelling Meshes, Bones, Animation, and Textures. Model Parts should be made available in mulitple common formats such as .X, .3DS.

MECs 3D Plug-in: Parts could be imported into a 3rd party editor and assembled manually OR imported into game engine/application and assembled using a 3D Plug-in that handles parts welding and texture blending.

Licensing: Less-restrictive Licensing Agreement would allow Purchasers the ability to create Mods from parts meshes and textures without paying additional fees. Of course credit would have to be given to the original author and some restriction reselling Mods would have to be provided.

The MECS Construct

Defines a MECS Building Block/Accessory and its Connectors.

Block: 3D Mesh in which one more Connectors are added.
- Block Skin: Textures, Maps and Shaders applied to a Block

Accessory: Audio/Visual or Virtual Object in which one more Connectors are added.
- FX Objects: Particle Emitters, LensFlares
- 3D Objects: Mesh, Lights, Camera, Sound
- Physics Objects: Cloth, Hit Objects

Connector: A connection point in which a Blocks and Accessories are connected.

- Mount: A external connector added to mesh or internal point defined within the mesh used to connect Parts & Accessories at runtime. Gender determines Parent/Child Relation between block and connector. Mounts have 3 types of Genders: Slot/Peg/Any. Slots are Parented by Blocks, Blocks are Parented by Pegs, Only Slot to Peg relationship allowed between specified Mounts of either gender. If the connection gender is any is used as standard mount

- Bone: two connecting points defined within a mesh used for bone animation. The two points maintain a Parent/Child relationship defined by the animation data. Two Bones connect to each other, at the points of the same name. Bones can be assigned a gender to connect to Mounts and Joints.

- Joint: Dark Physics Rigid Body Joint often used in Machines: 6DOF, Clyindrical, Distance, Fixed, Point in Plane, Point on Line, Prismatic,Pully, Revolute, Sphere.

- Weld: A vertex point defined within a mesh and assigned to be used for (magnetic threshold) welding of two meshes together to create a single seamless mesh. Welds have two genders: Positive|Negative.

The MECS Entity Class

Defines a Game Entity Class, its Parts, and Assembly Hierarchy.

Class Part
- Core: Base Part in which Limb Parts connect. Mandatory for Entity Assembly.
- Limb: Extension Component that connects to Core or Limb.

Common Entity Classes:
* TerraForms (Terrain + Sky + Celetstrial Body + Fluidbody + Cloud)
* Building (Interior|Exteriors)
* Structure
* Trees & Plants
* Character Head
* Character Body
* Firearm
* Projectile
* Melee Weapon
* Prop
* Furniture
* Vehicle and Crafts
* Machines
* Items (Single Block with Connectors)

The MECS Entity

Defines a individual Instance of a Entity Class

Entity Part: Single Construct or Composite Construct

MECS XML Format


Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Mar 2009 06:01
Someone recently asked a question here about mixing parts and when typing the response I totally thought of this picture! Were you doing something with this a while ago? I think I remember seeing this on the DBP boards a while back.

I like the idea, it could be interesting. I think it would only benefit those not talented in modeling/texturting, but that right there is a big market in and of itself.

I don't know much about the legal side of things, but it seems reasonable enough.

The key would be in showing of easy it is, because right now, it sounds like a pain to do. I think some would consider just modeling their own parts instead of wasting time/money.

If this idea does go through, there should be some sort of quality control for it, especially if people have to pay.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Degrees: Computer Animation-
JLMoondog
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Posted: 20th Mar 2009 19:10
I think your getting a little to complicated here, especially with the welding of model parts. As far as I can tell looking at other games that have multiple variations of a NPC, they first have a base mesh with a base texture. Then they'll apply a first layer of clothing using multi-texturing. Last, they have a second layer for clothing that goes over the first layer, including such things as arm/shoulder armor, face, hair, boots, weapons and other such items.

I think the easiest way to create such a model pack is to first start off with a base mesh, rigged and skinned. The base mesh can then be manipulated by adding layers of textures or other objects that would be attached to certain limbs of the model.

To get more detail, you could actually divide the base mesh into several parts. Head, torso, arms, legs, feet. This way you can replace each part with a variation. A large amount of games use this technique, and is at the moment the easiest and most efficient way of doing this.

The problem with welding is you would have to have a base mesh with a set number of connection points with a set number of vertices to be welded at each connection. Then the limb would have to have the same. When combined, how would you handle the UV coordinates effectively? As one object you would have to somehow combine and even manipulate the UV data to fit one area. Setting UV data in a modeler is already a skilled art form. Having a computer do it automatically could end with horrific results.

Just a thought, though it would be cool to create such a set of model packs.

TechLord
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Posted: 20th Mar 2009 22:01 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2009 16:48
Hi Sid and Josh,

Thank you for your replies.

Quote: "Someone recently asked a question here about mixing parts and when typing the response I totally thought of this picture! Were you doing something with this a while ago? I think I remember seeing this on the DBP boards a while back."
I've been developing Modular Entity Construction Sets for my MMO (in dev for 1.5 years) with intention of supporting countless variations for Entities and Customization. It didn't dawn on me until recently, that the system could be made portable for use in other games - supported by Model Pack System.

For my First Person Shooter MMORPG, I desired the ability to highly customize the FireArm, not just characters. It wasn't long after, I realized that one could practically assemble/customize all classes of entities with parts. Inspired by Toy Construction Sets (ie Tinker Toys, Knex, etc), I conceived a system of virtual building blocks and connectors which could handle creating many variations within each class of entity.

Quote: "To get more detail, you could actually divide the base mesh into several parts. Head, torso, arms, legs, feet. This way you can replace each part with a variation. A large amount of games use this technique, and is at the moment the easiest and most efficient way of doing this."
That is exactly what MECs is, the more parts, the more detail. The overall goals are 1) Provide a standardize system for export, import, assembly in Game Engines via Code Lib, Plug-in, Scripts, etc;2) Supply the system with high-quality parts from 3D Artists.

Quote: "I think your getting a little to complicated here, especially with the welding of model parts."
I don't want my Characters to look like segmented action figures (although stylized in its own right), my solution was to weld the seams, glue joints, and blend textures on demand within the game engine to create single mesh entities. There are also performance issues with using multiple meshes vs a single mesh.

Quote: "The problem with welding is you would have to have a base mesh with a set number of connection points with a set number of vertices to be welded at each connection. Then the limb would have to have the same. When combined, how would you handle the UV coordinates effectively?"
Hmm, that quote in itself contains the basis for a modeling standard and identifies the need for a process to auto-compensate for texture coords (and dont forget weighted vertices). Thanks Josh. It can be done, I just need to figure it out and I'll put it into a 3D Plugin.

Quote: "The key would be in showing of easy it is, because right now, it sounds like a pain to do. I think some would consider just modeling their own parts instead of wasting time/money... I think it would only benefit those not talented in modeling/texturting"
Been there - done that. I grabbed the lastest version of Blender and attempted to model my own parts. Due to tiny amounts of 3D creation skills and humongous amounts of frustration, I took a visit to your neighborhood 3D stores: Turbo Squid and The Game Creator Store.

Unfortunately, all of the Character Packs feature single mesh models or pre-assembled models, however, I figured I could separate the mesh and textures into parts for my Character Customization System. This proved to be much more difficult than anticipated. Thats when it dawned on me, what if there were already Model Packs for MECS! In fact, such model packs would be Modular Entity Construction Sets!

Quote: "If this idea does go through, there should be some sort of quality control for it, especially if people have to pay."
Setting this up will require some serious leg work but heres an outline of a possible QA process.

MECS Council: Group of 3D Artist and Game Engine Programmers who approve and manage the MECS Open Standard and Tools.

MECS Certificate: A Certificate of Compliancy w/ Managed Serial Number issued by MECS Council to 3D Authors whom submit their 3D Art for review and certification. This Certificate could come in the form of a Graphic/Text Logo w/Serial Number to be presented in viewable documentation.

MECS Author: A 3D Artist who produces a Modular Entity Construction Set (3D Models, Animations, Textures, Materials, Shaders) and acquires a Certificate of Compliancy 3D Model Pack.

MECS Tools: MECS Code Libraries, Plug-ins, Documentation, etc. These tools are approved for use by the MECS Council.

MECS Store: Official Store for selling and purchasing certified MECS products.

TechLord
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 07:32 Edited at: 20th Dec 2009 14:17
bergice
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 14:33
Wow, you are really working on this

Good luck, love to see it finished.

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Bursar
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 14:54
Yeah, it sounds neat. It would be nice to also see a few models that follow the principles, and the code to get things plugged together and running inside DBP.
TechLord
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 15:04
Thanks, Bergice. I see a great deal of potential for MECS not only for RPGs, but, any type of game/genre. A Standardized Entity Construction System, supported with tools and a supply of high-quality model packs.

I'm hoping to get more buy in from the both Game Devs and 3D artist for this system. I've posting at many types of Game Dev and 3D art forums. I'm working on several things at once to include modeling my own parts and writing the editor.

If anyone else see the positives and negatives please post your opinions.

Cyborg ART
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Posted: 25th Mar 2009 17:04
Sounds interesting.

DestroyerHive
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2009 00:40
You have my support!

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Quik
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2009 01:27
this sounds realy interesting, even though i just quickly read it through, it sounds kinnda cool! you have my Axe... oh, support in this.

will read it more carefully tomorrow

Quik, Quiker than most
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 05:50
Hi

There is a primative version of your idea in the 3D Gamemaker program. You could mix and match a variety of parts to make different entities. If I recall it was possible to go in and retexture elements as well. I think they probably just had all variations included in a hidden library so you had the illusion of actually building characters without having to deal with the aspect of welding etc.
lazerus
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 23:59 Edited at: 9th Apr 2009 00:10
Spore?

Read through all the posts, but in spore they use a similar system in connecting the polys to create seamless species, this is the same process yet it allows you to slightly more flexabilty, It even had non organics to work in the same way, with alot more ease and sucess,

the main issue would be the animation of said parts, in spore theylimited certain aspects to aloow smooth animation, unless you want the option to animate after the fact.

The issue with action-segmented-men, can easily be overcome it you allow 'hard points' to which 'non/or'/ organics can connect, alot like Knex but without allowing the user to throw parts onto parts of the bars themselves.

hell you'v got my support if you need help with modeling. Although you would need to give an example so i can mimic the style.
I've gotten very good at doing that lol
email me, you just ask here

TechLord
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 16:32 Edited at: 10th Apr 2009 18:07
Thanks for input and support Everyone. I'm working around the clock to get a MECS Lib and Editor Running. I'm building this Editor with my MMO Client Engine and GUI System which doesn't have all the Buttons etc built in, so I'm building those as I go and its taking more time.

The initial functionality of the Editor will be to:

* Set Up Entity Class Parts Hierarchy
* Build Parts: Load in Blocks (Meshes) & assign Connectors
* Texture Blocks
* Assemble Entity Instance from Parts based on connectors.
* Import & Export MECS Definition Format.

@lazerus - thanks for the offer. The MECS Definition Format isn't solid yet for setting up the Entity Classes, Parts, Connectors, etc. I intend to flush it out with the development of the editor. However, I could still use some meshes to prototype with. I tried to model Firearm and Character parts in Blender by splitting up a FPSC and Gun model (autoslug) & Character (Conker) Models, but, I suck at Blender. I could use some help here.

Firearm Entity Class


Firearm Modelled Parts (simulated)


lazerus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 18:26 Edited at: 10th Apr 2009 18:29
I can see what you mean now by the hiherarchy,

Will there be a certain starting point of some kind? such as a unmoveable or un-editible brick, say the trigger gaurd or some kind of firing mechanism that will stay in the centre, and then the user will be able to add armour' facy chamber plating. //so the case-ing is what am getting at.\ that sort of deal, If so you would need several start 'bricks' for different weapons

Ill have a fiddle in my spare time and see what i come up with.
Is that the whole item list?
or will there be more parts eligiable for use in the guns, if so please can you post a list?

And i know am getting ahead of myself but will you be using normal map function aswell ? if so this will greatly reduce the polycount and i will be able to power on through it. Its always nice to get some practice in on zbrush.

cheers cb

TechLord
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 00:42 Edited at: 11th Apr 2009 01:56
Here are some screenshots of the Editors.

MAUI Editor WIP


MECS Editor WIP


Quote: "I can see what you mean now by the hiherarchy,"


Explaining it is difficult in words only. The Entity Class Hierarchy defines a Game Entity and the Class of Parts used to assemble it. Examples of Game Entities would be: Buildings, Trees & Plants, Character Heads & Bodies, Firearms, Melee Weapons, Props/Furniture, Vehicle & Crafts, etc. An example of Class of Parts would be like the FireArm Class illustration above. These are common entities found in games and the system is flexible enough to accomodate any others if needed. You can also create Sub Classes within the Classes for example Character Bodies: BiPed, Quadriped, Octopod, etc.

Quote: "Will there be a certain starting point of some kind? such as a unmoveable or un-editible brick, say the trigger gaurd or some kind of firing mechanism that will stay in the centre, and then the user will be able to add armour' facy chamber plating. //so the case-ing is what am getting at. that sort of deal, If so you would need several start 'bricks' for different weapons"


There are two types of Class Parts: Core and Limb. At minimum, one Core class part must be defined within a Class/subclass. The Core Class Part is usually the primary or central part in which limbs connect to. It can be used as the starting point. In the case of the Firearm Entity Class, I selected the Chamber as the Core class part (I named it Chamber for the lack of a better name, it was better than Core, lol). You can also optionally make limbs mandatory for assembly within a Entity class hierarchy.

The Class Hierarchy only defines what class of parts makes up a Entity, not what makes up the parts. In some cases the Entity Class is used to define a part (ie Character Head with parts for eyes, nose, mouth, ears). To create a part, we first start with a Construct. A Constuct consists of a one 3D/FX/Physics Object (Block) and one or more Connection Points (Connectors). A Part can consists of 1 or more Construct(s).

Entities -> Class -> Class Type (SubClass) -> Class Part -> Part -> {Construct(s) = Block + Connector(s)}

The connection system in MECS is the highlight of the system. Connectors tell MECS how and where parts connect. Connectors are defined within the Mesh (ie: Bones) and externally with the MECS Editor. Creating a Constuct should be as simple as 1)Loading in the Mesh; 2)Add and orientate Connectors; 3) Exporting MECS File Format. Connectors will also contain additional parameters to ensure that the foot bone connected to the lowerleg bone, and the lowerleg bone connected to the upperleg bone... All of these features will supported within the MECS File Format and MECS will know from the information how to assemble the entity.

Quote: "Ill have a fiddle in my spare time and see what i come up with.
Is that the whole item list? or will there be more parts eligiable for use in the guns, if so please can you post a list?"

I believe the current hierarchy is sufficient for futuristic and modern firearm assembly. I have a vague idea of what the bone and mesh def animation it will require dependent on the part and weapon states. I was drawing most of concept for firearm animation from characters. I havent put a list together for character bodies, but, I anticipate the following:

{character head} (core) -> neck <- chest
lower torso -> upper torso -> chest -> upper arm -> lower arm -> hand
lower torso -> upper leg -> lower leg -> foot

Quote: "And i know am getting ahead of myself but will you be using normal map function as well ? if so this will greatly reduce the polycount and i will be able to power on through it. Its always nice to get some practice in on zbrush"
Yes, I intend to provide MECS with standard Texture, Maps, and Shaders support. In MECS textures/Shaders are treated as a interchangeable `Skin`. Ultimately, MECS just provides a means of export/import/assembly of 3D Game Entities with utilities that allow Developers to texture, animate, etc as they see fit.

Brennan
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Posted: 21st Apr 2009 19:28
im curious does CB Model Maker Pro work with FPS Creator I make mine into .obj files how can i make them into fps creator compatible?


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lazerus
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Posted: 21st Apr 2009 20:47
Quote: "im curious does CB Model Maker Pro work with FPS Creator I make mine into .obj files how can i make them into fps creator compatible?"


err wow that one caught me off gaurd...

sorry mate youll have to go into fpsc models and media for that...

its completly and utterly irreleavent why post in this subject thread?

just wow

sorry about above and the lateness of the models, am 15ft deep in work now leaving me little time to relax on my work\, if you want i can cut up my swords so you can give them a whirl, as for guns that'll take a while//

cheers cb

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 08:22 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2009 08:23
Doesn't Oblivion use a similar system for their characters?

It definitely sounds like a good idea, but I think you might find it a tad tricky welding meshes together whilst maintaining bone structure in DBPro.

For animation purposes, you could simply write a function that records all the limb positions and rotations from a base model, write it to a memblock (Followed by a file) and simply reverse the function to read said animation file. Not sure how fast that would be in DBPro though. Its not as complicated as Spore, because the models created would have the same number of bones/limbs.

I see a number of your threads dotted about the place. Its nice to see your still going for this!

Best of luck to you.

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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 10:10
Wow, this looks fantastic! Glad to see some effort is being put in!

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
TechLord
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Posted: 27th Apr 2009 19:05
Quote: "It definitely sounds like a good idea, but I think you might find it a tad tricky welding meshes together whilst maintaining bone structure in DBPro.

For animation purposes, you could simply write a function that records all the limb positions and rotations from a base model, write it to a memblock (Followed by a file) and simply reverse the function to read said animation file. Not sure how fast that would be in DBPro though. Its not as complicated as Spore, because the models created would have the same number of bones/limbs."
I agree that bone welding and its effect on animation will be tricky.

I will consider your recommendation on animation. Although I intend to use Enhanced Animation for my game engine, MECS should provide a decent system to achieve it without EnAnim.

TechLord
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Posted: 7th May 2009 17:57
I jumped from the original version that came with DBP Online and upgraded to U73. What a disaster! It completely broke with Barnski's Lua5.1 Plugin v1.1.1. compiling without a hitch, but crashing the .exe with no errors when ran. Unfortnately, this presented a Show Stopper.

I asked if others had issues with this on a couple of other forums, but, rapidly became impatient waiting for replies. I've been working hard on the GUI and I'm getting anxious to get to work on the MECS 3D system. I downgraded to U69 and all has returned to normal + a 10FPS Speed boost! No Green Ear for DarkMORG

Azunaki
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Posted: 8th May 2009 05:13
well good to hear your back on track.
TechLord
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Posted: 20th May 2009 10:02
To interested parties, I've released , which is the GUI system I'm using to develop the embeddable MAUI Editor, MECS Editor and other Apps for my MMORPG.

The GUI is in a functional state but there are some standard behaviors such as checkboxes missing. I will be adding these behaviors and constantly improving MAUI as my needs dictate. I will developing the MAUI and MECs editor along side each other.

BiggAdd
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Posted: 20th May 2009 12:09
TechLord - Please try not to bump threads with announcements related to another thread.

You are more than welcome to have a thread for each one of your projects, but don't use them as a universal announcement system.


Cheers,
BiggAdd

TechLord
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Posted: 20th May 2009 12:35
My apologies BiggAdd. The goal was to update Project Threads that involved the GUI. It was more work than I desired - lol. It will not happen again.

Oolite
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Posted: 20th May 2009 18:23
Weird, last week i started planning a model pack like this, it wasn't anything do do with merging different parts of characters but static entities. My idea was very similar, having many different parts that make up a barrier(building or firearm) and letting the user control how they are placed together. Like your idea, the different parts would snap into place and all would be modelled so they can fit together seamlessly. I only started modelling last night with no real major plan of action. I'd love to see this come to fruition as its more complex than what i've acheived so far.


I'll finish them whenever i can be bothered.
TechLord
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Posted: 27th May 2009 19:02
Quote: "Weird, last week i started planning a model pack like this, it wasn't anything do do with merging different parts of characters but static entities. My idea was very similar, having many different parts that make up a barrier(building or firearm) and letting the user control how they are placed together. Like your idea, the different parts would snap into place and all would be modelled so they can fit together seamlessly. I only started modelling last night with no real major plan of action. I'd love to see this come to fruition as its more complex than what i've acheived so far."


Oolite, great minds think alike! I understand you dont have a real major POA at the moment, but, do you have a slight idea on how you intend to `snap` parts together? Even if the parts aren't seamless, developing a system to accomplish this would be very powerful and thats my primary goal.

TechLord
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Posted: 15th Sep 2009 22:42 Edited at: 21st Dec 2009 03:08
TechLord
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Posted: 20th Dec 2009 14:16 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2013 05:24
Hi Folks,

I just wanted to update you all on whats been going on with MECS. After a fallout with DBPro I moved over to DarkGDK. Since that time, I launched a community project to build a Open Source Project-Trio that includes a Game Engine, Editor, and Game.

As the coordinator and contributor, I've been very busy with working other parts of the engine. However, MECS is a key feature of the engine as all multi-part entities may use it. I've been seek help from others in the community to help to start some concept code and art. Unfortunately, its been a very tough sell and its going very slowly. I'm very surprised that other game devs cannot see the value in this concept.

Anyways, when I complete the GUI and Network Systems, I will immediately start work to build a functional MECS System and Stand-alone Application, and FPS Arcade Game `uNNatural` to showcase the system by using random generated levels, monsters, firearm weapons with parts packs. Thus, I would also be interested in any FREE model parts contributions to prototype with.

http://www.freakycreatures.com/video.html

Until next time, Happy Holidays.

[href]null[/href]

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