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Work in Progress / Dark GT revisited

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DTsine
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Posted: 8th Aug 2006 23:17 Edited at: 11th Aug 2006 11:35
NEW SCREEN AT BOTTOM

Hey,

I don’t know if there is still anyone here that remembers my project or me, as it’s now been almost 3 years.

Anyway it was a remake of GT for the playstation.

You can see old screens here http://www.geocities.com/richardneailuk/Projects.html

Well anyway time is now on my hands again to resurrect the project and I will keep everyone posted.

Rich
David T
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Posted: 8th Aug 2006 23:58
Oh my god! Rich, how have you been?

It's been ages. Remember me - David T? We worked very briefly on a 'new' Dark GT but things never took off...

DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:04
Yer I remember its been like an age I know but things have moved on now and I have time to start again.

Plus with the new developments within DBP I want to try some things out

To be totally honest I am just recovering from an eye operation so it will still be a few weeks before I can get any major work done.

Just wanted to see what peoples thoughts where and get back into the community ect

Rich
Big Man
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:04
screens look nice

sorry i dont rememeber you as i have only been here for a year 8 months.

Cheers

BM

Our aim is to keep the loo's clean, your aim can help.
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:32
Here are the older screens

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DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:33
and another

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DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:34
and finally one more of a later screen shot still an old one though.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 01:07 Edited at: 9th Aug 2006 01:07
site is exceeding it's data limit for me

EDIT: why does it say you have 8 posts when you have 4?

Pirates of Port Royale
Live the life of a pirate.
Elite Gaming
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 01:08
Website doesn't work

I'm assuming by GT you mean Gran Turismo? I'm currently building my own racing game, http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=85357&b=8 so it would be cool to see what others in the db community have done with the same format.
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 01:53
EliteGaming - cause my account is a new user all the posts have to be verified before they appear. If a mod could alter this that would be great!

Quote: "I'm assuming by GT you mean Gran Turismo?"


Yes I know the name Dark GT sucks its just a working title I might change it.

Checked out your game that looks pretty good chap coming on well. Are you using your own AI and physics?

What optimisation you looking at cause your frame rate seems quite low.

Everyone else I know the website sucks and don’t work but its years old so hopefully you will be able to see the uploads and I will sort a new website.

David T get back to me mate we can catch up and you canfill me in on whats been happening around here

Rich
Jonny_S
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 03:53
Man I remember this project from a whole lifetime ago cool stuff!

I finally changed the bad spelling
The admiral
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 06:02
I remember this great stuff for its time I look forward to the new version.

The admiral
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 11:43
lol well I hope i can live upto the older version.

thanks for the comments guys

Rich
Elite Gaming
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 12:03
@ DTsine

I've currently got two versions of the game in progress, one with my own physics (the one that is displayed in my WIP), and another one i'm refining now which uses Dark Physics, and hopefully soon, another version which will be using Newton physics, just to see what works out the best.

The AI, once the physics are done, will be created myself, as i want specific AI for each car, as in they think differently, and act differently to situations.

The FPS is low due it being "Dummy Physics" - its uses a few intersect object commands, which is slowing it down. The newer versions run at 33-66 fps. It would be nice discuss your project more with you - have you used your own physics? The track looks pretty good compared to the GT track its resembleing!
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 13:03
@ EliteGaming

Originally I used the masked coders physics but scrapped them and never had chance get anything else done, with the introduction of Dark Physics I decided to give it another go.

I haven’t played with it much but I was just reading your thread and have come to the same conclusion at the moment that turning ect is a bit of a disappointment but collision is very good.

The tracks and cars I model myself in lightwave gives me total control over them that way, what do you use ?

And remember them screens are actually from DB not DBP when that was done DBP was a very young program.

Rich
David T
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 13:58
Hi Rich - I'm afraid we can't alter your approval status until you 'wear it off'. Shouldn't be too much longer posting normally.

Do you have msn / and email address?

DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 14:02
@ david T

Yer sorry for asking about my posting I read after about the rules !! LOL anyways no worries as its sorted now

Do you have my AOL email?

Rich
VR2
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 14:41
I understand your renewed interest is due to Dark Physics?

Does the DP licensing concern you or is this just a "for fun" project only, just to see what could be done?

Or would you, potentially, go full on commercial (with publisher etc).

What I'm saying is, the decision to invest (time) in DP now may bite you in the @rse later when you come to sell your game shareware from your site via Paypal for £10.

Might it be worth considering Newton or ODE for physics? I suppose part of that question is, "Is there something DP gives that Newton does not (apart from Hardware support)"?

Personally I'd love to see a full demo (exe) of DarkBasicPRo and ANY physics package, creating a racing game

And I *mean* Racing, not "Terrain Demo featuring Dune buggy". I want to feel the need for speed, jumps and rolls
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 15:06 Edited at: 9th Aug 2006 15:11
@VR2

Interesting questions chap,

Quote: "Does the DP licensing concern you or is this just a "for fun" project only, just to see what could be done? "


No it doesn’t concern me as at the moment its just for fun Dark GT has always been just to see if something that people say cant be done can be.

Quote: "Might it be worth considering Newton or ODE for physics? I suppose part of that question is, "Is there something DP gives that Newton does not (apart from Hardware support)"?"


I have looked at newtons but I couldn't get my head round it. I might look at it again if I can’t get what I want out of DP.

My maths sucks and that slows me down !! LOL

Quote: "And I *mean* Racing, not "Terrain Demo featuring Dune buggy". I want to feel the need for speed, jumps and rolls "


Yes so do I a little arena dent show anything what you need is a proper racetrack or even a rally stage! (Might look into that too)

Just on the subject of tracks I now have my LW importer done so I can load my tracks direct into DBP vertex shading and all

Rich
VR2
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 15:26
I believe that DP comes with a pre-defined "vehicle" class of sorts so it will be interesting to see how well that pans out.

Y'see last year I tried using ODE to make a new racing prototype (in C# / Managed DirectX, Managed ODE) but just could NOT get the wheels to stay put, once a "certain speed" was attained. You know, the speed where things start getting interesting I spend ages playing with the parameters and trying different things but never really solved it.

What happens is you then look around the web to see how other people have done it and all you find is "Terrain Demo" or "Buggy Trial" or even "F1 demo" where they have an F1 car doing about 15 MPH!!, when what you REALLY need is to see something moving at high, high speed, "drifting" into corners and handbrake turning etc.

So, I look forward to your progress and seeing what you, and DP can do
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 15:41
Yer I know what you mean I wantall thepowerslides ect else it isnt a proper racing game is it.

I been asking a few questions in the DP forum asit says in the features for DP

Quote: "Have you ever wanted to create a racing game? Well now you can by utilising Dark Physics. A set of commands exist for taking vehicle models and setting them up in the simulation. It has a great deal of flexibility that allows for the creation of all kinds of scenarios such as driving simulations and racing games. It won't be too long before you can be driving around a terrain performing power slides and skids, or perhaps you fancy driving round a race course at high speed, or maybe you want to create a stunt circuit and have vehicles that drive up ramps and have to go through obstacles. All these possibilities are available to you by using Dark Physics.

A wide range of properties exist for vehicles to create all kinds of effects. Being able to set front, rear or 4 wheel drive is handled with a few simple commands. Automatic and manual driving can be set up along with all kinds of gears, control over steering and how the vehicle handles and of course how much power the engine has!
"


I was wondering how u make it power slide and also I had a play with the front,rear,4WD command and seems to make no difference too me but maybe I am doing it wrong so thats way I am waiting for replies.

Rich
VR2
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 17:45
Wow, well from the market guff it sounds *fantastic*, and is *exactly* what I was trying to do with ODE! And it certainly sounds alot easier to use DP than manually setting up joints etc. Plus you've got a tested code base (in theory at least), a couple of lines and you have a fully functioning vehicle. Now you just have to make it "handle" right.

So the question is, does it (DP) do what it says on the box?

You know what, I'm almost tempted to have a play myself except.....I just couldn't handle the DB syntax nowadays, it just doesn't *fit* with anything else I do. Shame.

I may have gone for Dark SDK but, as I understand it, DP is not available from Dark SDK (ever?). And besides, my circumstances do not really allow any serious extra curricular coding (for the next 18 years or so?).

Still, I wish you the best of luck and watch with interest
VR2
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 18:17
Quote: "Added some new commands to give further control over vehicles today:

* phy set vehicle brake torque ID, wheel, value#
* phy set vehicle motor torque ID, wheel, value#
* phy set vehicle steering angle ID, wheel, value#
* phy set vehicle wheel radius ID, wheel, value#
* phy set vehicle suspension travel ID, wheel, value#
* phy set vehicle longitudinal tire force function ID, wheel, extremum slip#, extremum value#, asymptote slip#, asymptote value#, stiffness factor#
* phy set vehicle lateral tire force function ID, wheel, extremum slip#, extremum value#, asymptote slip#, asymptote value#, stiffness factor#
* phy set vehicle wheel flags ID, wheel, flags "


Well don't THOSE commands look useful!

In fact, it stuns me that they release DP without them!

Still, it defininately looks like you should be able to do the kindof things the marketing guff speaks of.

FYI: This was my abondoned ODE effort http://www.victory-road.co.uk/download/ODECarDemo1Setup.msi
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 23:31
@VR2

Yer it surprised me too that them commands are not in the original release as they seem so easy too add and will be in this weeks update for DP.

Anyways I aint complaining the guys are getting it in there and I will be able to use it soon

It certainly seems to make things much easier, guess everyone will be having a go now ! LOL

Well if I can make it handle right I can chop the code into the original Dark GT and have some fun to start with before I get the new version done POWER SLIDES !!!!!!!!

Elite Gaming
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 23:35
Have you got demos have Dark GT i can look at? I'm trying to pull together a quick demonstration of GTRacing, using DarkPhysics at the mo, be interesting to see yours.

Cheers
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Aug 2006 23:50
@VR2

That’s not bad at all chap what you was working on why did you give it up?

The handling is not bad although it drives more like a rear wheel drive than a 4 wheel drive.

@EliteGaming

I have an old demo somewhere but I don’t know where. I haven’t started to put it all together yet. I tend to write individual programs for each element of the game, one for physics, one for AI ect ect, when I have them working I then start to put them together.

Rich
VR2
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Posted: 10th Aug 2006 16:29
Quote: "That’s not bad at all chap what you was working on why did you give it up?

The handling is not bad although it drives more like a rear wheel drive than a 4 wheel drive."


I was just experimenting, as you do, with a view to making a new version of Victory Road (hence VR2). The thing was, what you see there was weeks of trial and error to eridicate, as much as possible, the infamous "wheel wobble" where the axel joints & suspension just couldn't cope with the forces, so you'd end up

1) Not being able to steer properly
2) The rear wheels not following the car around bends - they'd just try to go straight on!!

Even on that demo right there, you'll notice that the wheels could "Pidgeon Foot" inwards or outward, and once the wheel goes to a right angle, then the car flips over. The speed in that demo was just not sufficient for that to happen though.

What I'm trying to say is that it just didn't really work, I'd find that I needed to set the "MAX_ITERATIONS" of the physics simulation to some way over the top number (like 50 instead of 10) to try to keep things under control. Thats b@ggered the other 40 cars I was gonna have on the track then!

Maybe I was just doing it wrong, maybe there was a bug in the physics engine, maybe the types of joints I had to use were not designed to do what they were doing. It actually occures to me now that perhaps I should have thrown away the "Car demo" I started with and re-done everything from scratch, taking care to simulate wishbone suspension and proper axels etc, basically make the model more realistic in the hope that the physics would follow suit (but not grind to a halt under the processing).

Maybe *good* vehicle physics, even when using a good, but generic physics engine, is still hard to do. Maybe there are just too many parameters for the average bod to figure out what settings to apply for decent results. Maybe either you need a really good example to work from, or the engine needs to have a generic "Vehicle" class built in (as per DP), that can easily be tweaked.

Whatever, the fact was that it started not being very fun anymore and it was clear that I was trying to base the gameplay around something that was outside of my control. That is super fine when its all going well, you stay sane, but when you run into a bug/problems then it all starts unravelling real quick!

I would only hope/assume that this kindof thing would not apply to a commercial physics engine like PhysX, which, as far as I can tell, acts like Direct3D does for HW graphics in that it allows direct manipulation of the PPU, but comes with a "Reference Rasterizer" as well, for when the hardware is not there.

All things being equal, I'm expecting some good stuff and look forward to seeing what you can do with it
DTsine
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Posted: 11th Aug 2006 11:33
@VR2

Thanks for the support chap we will just have too see when Mike gets the update of DP out.

I know what you mean by when things just get too much for you and its better to give up while the going is good.

For now I will get a basic setup done so I can just add the new commands in.

Here is a screen that shows what the new track will look like, better textures ect.

Rich

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VR2
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Posted: 11th Aug 2006 12:12 Edited at: 11th Aug 2006 12:16
I had a thought on this.....I know you're keen to plug DP into DarkGT and "see what happens" (and, lets face it, who could blame you!) but at this "waiting for the update time" (lets hope you don't have to suffer too much of this) you may also want to think about creating a "Vehicle Creation" program where you can edit every single parameter (or at least the major ones) of the vehicle & surrounding physics (ie gravity, wind, road surfaces) in real time to see the results of different values.

Then you can save them off into a file and bring them into your main game

That way you can stay sane by basically having fun with your program (mostly written before the update was even available?), driving around and stuff but be creating really great handling vehicles at the same time. Just a thought.

And later, you can sell said vehicle creation program though TGC for a tidy sum.......?

Nice screeny BTW
Sixty Squares
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Posted: 11th Aug 2006 17:10
WOW those screens look amazing! I would LOVE to play this!

DTsine
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Posted: 11th Aug 2006 23:31
@VR2

You read my mind !!!!!!! LOL

And I quote

Quote: "I tend to write individual programs for each element of the game, one for physics, one for AI ect ect, when I have them working I then start to put them together."


The physics one will allow me to change each element so I can see its effects.

You got a email chap that I can get you on?

Oh and congrats on the little one I have two myself

Sixty Square thsnks for the comment I only hope I can make it play as good as it looks this time.

In fact if it all works it will be better than GT on the playstation as you will actually be able to crash the car and you cant that in GT well not upto now anyway.

Rich
VR2
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Posted: 13th Aug 2006 04:36
So how's it going on this? I've seen some of the posts on the DP thread, wheels rotating the wrong way and materials not affecting the vehicle tyres....

Is the update with the tyre slip stuff in it out yet?

Does this mean there are lots of gremlins? Or are these just minor annoyances and you already have those powerslides working?

I've added my hotmail to my profile.
DTsine
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Posted: 13th Aug 2006 16:59
@VR2

Yer there are a few minor annoyances and gremlins but I am working my way round them.

Havent got the new update yet and havent got the power slides ect sorted, I am trying to create a stable car editor that I can use to setup the car and test them then create A INI file and load it direct into the game.

Also if I do it this way then the section of the game that allows you to buy upgrades and change car performance will already be done.

At the moment if I had just dropped the code into what I had it would have been a nightmare !!!, to many little things you have to do to make it work right but I am sure it will get there in the end.

Will drop you a email chap

Rich
VR2
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Quote: " I am trying to create a stable car editor that I can use to setup the car and test them then create A INI file and load it direct into the game.

Also if I do it this way then the section of the game that allows you to buy upgrades and change car performance will already be done."


You know it makes sense

I just had a look at EliteGaming's demo. Pretty good I thought, much better than your average amature vehicle demo!

It was just the lack of tyre slip....and the DP update is out today I think....?

I'm thinking that with the new update, things could get rather interesting
DTsine
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 12:59
Yer I checked the demo too but it isntthat fast on my laptop only around 13FPS although its still very smooth running.

Mike is saying that the update should be out today so fingers crossed and lets see what we get to play with

Rich
Elite Gaming
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Posted: 20th Aug 2006 00:25
Does anyone know if this project is still going? Would love to see what DTsine is doing with the car physics, and the gt tracks.
TEH_CODERER
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Posted: 20th Aug 2006 16:50
The demo gives me a constant 60fps which made the car move too fast to control. Some of the collision was also quite dodgy. The track and car both look great though!

[url]andrewneale2004@yahoo.com[/url]
http://www.elbsoftware.dbspot.com
MikeS
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Posted: 20th Aug 2006 18:21
Ladies and gentlemen, one of the ledgends from the early days of DBC/DBP era, Richard Neail.

I am extremely excited to see you continue this project. With the enhancements of DBP, this has huge potential with your coding abilities. Keep us posted.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
DTsine
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 23:14
Ok just a quick update to let everyone know I am still working on this, things are slow at the moment as I mentioned in my previous posts I am still recovering from a eye op.

MikeS

Quote: "I am extremely excited to see you continue this project. With the enhancements of DBP, this has huge potential with your coding abilities"


I dont know if I would go that far ROLF!!!!!!!!!, but thanks anyway !!

I think at the moment my coding abilities have wandered of somewhere!!!

anyway will keep you all posted.

Rich
Nanarchy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2006 07:59
I havn't seen it posted anywhere, but I contacted Ageia about licensing since I have a project in the works, and their reply was thus:
---
If that's the case, as long as the game support AGEIA PhysX hardware
using some of the functionality exposed in DarkPhysics, there is no
license fee.

Without hardware support, the fee is US$50,000 per game.
---

Hope that answers that question

--Nanarchy
DTsine
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Posted: 27th Sep 2006 01:26
Just to let everyone know yes this is still going and no there is nothing new to show at the moment at its all internal workings.

Boring I know but I could post pretty screens all day and sub standard demos but I wont release anything now until I have something that plays well.

Rich
gameguru
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Posted: 5th Oct 2006 22:23
Hi rich ..... we are all waiting for ur demo to be released. I myself hve been workin on a fps in dbpro and am also eager to integrate a few racing levels to it.

I've prepared the basic car handlings and am using newton for the dev.

Can you gimme ur mail ID .... u may contact me also at ur convenience >>> max_nava[@]rediffmail.com [without the brackets ofcourse)

Hopin to hear from you soon.
Chris Franklin
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Posted: 8th Oct 2006 21:55
Wow awesome stuff got msn? i need to ask you something about the 3d design >.< great work

I'm back! Great to be back | Watch out for one of my projects soon that will be finished
DTsine
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Posted: 9th Oct 2006 23:51
No sorry dont have msn I am happy to answer any questions here though so ask away.

Rich
Chris Franklin
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 00:20
i was just curious where ya got the models from? or what you used to make them? because i'm trying to get hold of a toyota celica for a commercial game

I'm back! Great to be back | Watch out for one of my projects soon that will be finished
DTsine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2006 23:53
Hi,

I make all the models myself from blueprints and I use lightwave to make them.

Rich
sneaky smith12
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 00:48
Quote: "We worked very briefly on a 'new' Dark GT but things never took off..."


Hope this one does take off

If at first you dont succeed, LOWER YOUR STANDARDS.
Chris Franklin
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 00:51
Quote: "Hi,

I make all the models myself from blueprints and I use lightwave to make them.

Rich"


Great stuff wish i had your skll good luck with the game =)

I'm back! Great to be back | Watch out for one of my projects soon that will be finished
DTsine
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Posted: 11th Oct 2006 22:34
Hey thanks for the comment its just time and practice thats all there isnt much skill needed if you have the time !!!!!! LOL

Rich

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