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Geek Culture / UK University Question

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Mattman
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 22:57
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I live in the US, and cannot for the life of me understand this quote I found on the Rare company website:

"Most of our applicants have completed a Computer Science/Software Engineering degree to 2:1 or above"

The boys in IRC couldn't help me. How about you all?

Thanks,
Matt

Why make sense when you could make brownies?
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 23:09 Edited at: 20th Feb 2007 23:10
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A 2:1 is a level of grade you get when finishing your degree, it's basically an 'Upper Second Class Honours' and means you did pretty well. A 'First Class Honours' is the best you can get. From a 2:2 on down it's pretty much useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_undergraduate_degree_classification

In short, you need a good degree at University level in Computer Science as an absolute minimum. For them to say they want a 2:1 level or ABOVE means they want the best of the best, no slackers

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 23:12
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It means they have got the 'Degree' qualification at a mark 2:1 or higher, which is a good grade, my Mum got a 2:1, my sister a 2:2 at university. I don't know the system fully, but I think the next one up is 1:1 which is the highest.

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Robin
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 00:31
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yep.
I'm not sure how it is in most uni's, but percentages here roughly equate to the following grades:
1:1 = 70% - 100%
2:1 = 60% - 70%
2:2 = 50% - 60%
I think you can get third class grades too...

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Jonny_S
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 00:56
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Yeh you can get a 3rd, if you get that then you have definatly wasted the last 3 years of your life, because your degree is pointless

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Mattman
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 01:54
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Thanks guys. Wonder how hard this spot would be to get as I'm from US.

Why make sense when you could make brownies?
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Mattman
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 02:21
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Gah. Now I found a scale comparing UK grades (0-100) to US Grades (F-A), but I can't figure out how those UK numbers corrolate to the 2:1 Honours. Can anybody help me out again?

Thanks,
Matt

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 03:14
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Quote: "The boys in IRC couldn't help me. How about you all?"

yeah, 'cause all them guys are like 3:9's



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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 09:54
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Generally speaking:
3rd class = <50%
2:2 = >=50% <60%
2:1 = >= 60% <70%
1st class = >= 70%


The usually take other things into account, eg if you get 59% but your coursework is 1st class they might bump you from 2:2 to 2:1... Unless your me and you went to Essex Uni. I got 59.4% overall but 74% average on coursework (a good few of which were in the 90-100% range!)

How much does uni cost in the US? In the UK its bloody expensive - about £3k a year tuition for UK residents and I THINK about £10k a for foreign (I knew a Chinese guy studying at Essex paying that much).

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Chris K
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 10:26
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I thought there was a 1:2 which is better than a 2:1? Maybe I dreamed that...

There is also a "Star 1st" which is the best of the best of the best.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 11:47
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Chris - you dreamed it

Yeah - Star first is like a special extra on the 1st noticing extreme achievement.

One thing to bear in mind is that a 1st is some degree's is nowhere near equivalent to a 1st in another (compare Law/Medicine to Media Studies).

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adr
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 12:13
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Quote: "From a 2:2 on down it's pretty much useless."




I'd like to think I'm doing OK. I had the best time of my life at university, I just wasn't all that .. um... academically focussed. What frustrated me most was that my final year project was marked at something like 74% - within the top 5 or so projects of my year. Unfortunately, the damage had already been done - too many 40%s in the second year...


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Robin
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 12:39
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International students can pay ridiculous amounts - at my uni, to study medicine some students are paying around £25,000 a year

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 12:54
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Quote: "From a 2:2 on down it's pretty much useless"

For Computer Science a 2:1 or higher is very desirable - however, you can get by with a 2:2 (I have a 2:2 and I'm doing pretty well!)

As with most things in life, its more often about WHO you know, not WHAT you know. Its also useful to have a portfolio of stuff to show you off - especially if your Degree doesn't make you shine

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Dazzag
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 17:17
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A lot of companies basically throw any CVs that don't have a Comp Sci degree into the bin (we did). A good percentage will also chuck anybody that didn't get a 1st into the bin too (we didn't thank god). A 3rd is what is widely known as a drinker's degree We had great parties at my firm in the early days Oh, and I know about the CV thing because we researched it and I interviewed a hell of a lot of programmers over the years.

Heh, I only went to perhaps one lecture a week for the last 2 years and did no studying at all for exams (unless you count 2-3 hours on the last night before each exam). Considering I think I only went to the opening robotic lecture I assumed that one was completely dead in the water so went to the pub the night before instead. Good times

Luckily I'm one of those natural programmers who loves programming, so I got by in Uni, plus my final year project was right up there (mainly because I liked what I was doing so put some time into it), and I turned out to be pretty good teaching and leading other people as well as yapping away in meetings and the like (clients like me luckily). And once I got Uni out of my system (and a couple of years or so into work life...) I got on with things easily. Now I work as a programming consultant in Cyprus for a firm in the UK and own my place out right. Ahhh.... I sometimes wish I'd tried harder in Uni.....

Quote: "its more often about WHO you know, not WHAT you know"
Yeah, true. But I was *very* lucky considering I moved across the country to work and didn't know anyone (plus at the time was terrible meeting new people - great once I had met them for 2 secs). Everyone was a bit of pub animal at the time basically. Which suited me fine. But I have seen managers that really shouldn't be in charge of your pudding let alone whole areas of multi-million pound departments! Honestly, one guy even use to play Lemmings all afternoon, and promise his programmers good pay increases at the end of the year because they were the best he'd worked with. Never actually happened though.

Cheers

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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 18:31
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Wow, I'm glad we don't have that kind of system here. A degree is a degree. A few companies will ask for official transcripts, but most not I presume.

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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Feb 2007 22:43
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Quote: "but I can't figure out how those UK numbers corrolate to the 2:1 Honours."


The "honours" come from a year in industry, I believe. So a comp sci course may either be 3 years (for example), or a 4 year course with 1 sandwich year you spend out in industry. Honours is great because it gives you a headstart with the experience many jobs require.

@Jeku

Is there no way of distinquishing grade quality then? There must be some sort of grading system, otherwise how can employers tell the difference between the best graduates and the slackers?


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 00:35
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Quote: "The "honours" come from a year in industry, I believe. "


Not in all cases, really honours just comes when you have to do the extra work, my Mum got a 2:1 Honours BA for Illustration, by doing the extra essays.

Quote: "Is there no way of distinquishing grade quality then? There must be some sort of grading system, otherwise how can employers tell the difference between the best graduates and the slackers?"


Indeed, these days, a degree isn't too hard to get, you can get one at college, pay loads of money to get one at university or just use the Open University, of course a University degree will look best on employers, but someone who worked their arse off at uni may come second to a fly-by student who barely passed his/her degree.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 00:53
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I got a 2:2 honours along with about 95% of the people on my course. Nobody really knew why they deserved it. Lol

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 02:22
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Quote: "Is there no way of distinquishing grade quality then? There must be some sort of grading system, otherwise how can employers tell the difference between the best graduates and the slackers?"


Well, some companies ask for transcripts. I've only been asked for that once, and that was for a government job. With my current job I just needed a certain type of degree, and didn't even have to prove it with a photocopy or anything like that.

Quote: "Indeed, these days, a degree isn't too hard to get"


Depends on the degree. A General Studies degree can't be that hard, but I still think a computer engineering or related degree would be tough.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 04:37
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Quote: "Now I found a scale comparing UK grades (0-100) to US Grades (F-A), but I can't figure out how those UK numbers corrolate to the 2:1 Honours. Can anybody help me out again?"

Wouldn't it just percentage? If that's what your talking about. But we have percentage in the US too. A=90%+, B=80%-89%, C=70%-79%, and although considered failing (you can't go on), some schools count it as a "D" if you get 60%-69%, and then lower is an F. Is the scale not the same or something?

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 10:40
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@Jeku - Computer Science is mostly quite easy as you're answers are often right or wrong, so you'll either get 100% or 0% (exaggerated, bu tyou get my point). In terms of coursework, as long as you follow the specifications you should get a high mark.

Now something like Law (in the UK at least) its nigh on impossible to get more than 70% - in fact I've heard that some tutors out-rightly say they wont give more than 70%. Personally I think that's the most stupid thing in the world to say as your mark is no longer percent (ie per hundred) its per-seventy.

@Gil - I explained the Degree boundaries earlier, bit its basically the same:
70% > 1st
60% > 2:1
50% > 2:2
40% > 3rd
otherwise fail.

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Manic
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 10:52
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You can get also get a pass for 35%, but you might as well just say you don't have a degree.

Martin

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Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2007 12:04
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Meh, we all got honours on our Comp sci course if you had higher than a pass (was over a decade ago though). Wasn't a sandwich either. Basically we had a meeting with a few students back from their year out, and the vast majority (apart from one smug git who got paid lots) were upset because they got paid practically nothing, were made to make the tea and photocopy for a year, were treated like 2nd class citizens, lost all their mates who had now left uni, and felt awkward in a year where everyone else knew each other. Really didn't leave us feeling good about it at all (which I'm sure was the opposite to what the lecturers wanted). Upto that point is was really up for a year out. Abandoned that idea there and then and instead carried on partying

One guy on our course was even in hospital for 6 months, had a final year project that wouldn't even compile, and even he got a pass. Only one too; no-one failed.

Cheers

BTW, it's about 21/22 degrees C today (lovely and warm). Damn those wasted years drinking...

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 01:41
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Quote: "Computer Science is mostly quite easy as you're answers are often right or wrong, so you'll either get 100% or 0%"


Huh? I don't understand. The marks were quite spread at school, and there's a large amount of theory work in Computer Science so it's not always "right" or "wrong". It's sure not easy.

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Mattman
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 01:50
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US/UK grading scales are way off I guess then, cuz A for us is 90%+, F(ailure) is 64%+ usually, with other letters in between.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 02:19 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2007 03:02
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People who don't have a degree don't understand that 70% is 100%!

To get 70% you have to do your work to 100% standard. To get above 70% you have to blow your lecturer away with something above and beyond what you were asked for!

The HONOURS comes from harder/more assignments! I normaly had 6 assignments/exams in a 6 week period so about 1 week each! Each assignment involves Design Documents, Writing the code, and a report normally.

Best UK qualifictions are..

PhD - 5 years of research (er.. lifes too short i can't imagine another 5 years to just stick Dr infront of my name)
MSc Hons <-- 1 year, I'm working on this one. Grade average is currently 69%
MSc
BSc Hons <-- then I did this for 2 years got 1st (normaly 3 years with no HND)
BSc
HND <-- so did this for 2 years got 82% Distinctions
A Levels <- 2 years, I fecked mine up and ended up in dead end job, if they are good normaly you can go straight to a BSc/BSc Hons 3 years
GCSE/SATs <-- 5 years, High school, if you get good grades you advance to A-levels, BTec or HND

A recent assignment involved creating a student grade referal system using a Perl front end to a MySQL database. To try an blow my lecturer away i hosted this on my own sever at home which involved setting up Apache, Perl, MySQL and Router port forwarding, I also created PHP and ASP systems to a similar standard but he only graded me overall 67%(yes one of those lecturers who says he never gives a 1st/A!!!!) Check it out for yourself if you like http://bulldog.servegame.com/msc Admin username=et1ect password=et1ect.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 02:36
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Quote: "To get 70% you have to do your work to 100% standard. To get above 70% you have to blow your lecturer away with something above and beyond what you were asked for!
"

Why? . Lol, that's stupid, it's like they're trying to put you down by saying that you can't be good enough to get higher than a 70%. And if 70% is a 100%, why don't they just call it 100%?

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GatorHex
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 02:51 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2007 03:29
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Yeah I think it's kinda stupid too but thats the way they run it they don't like giving away a 1st, probably only 1 per course per year.

If you take on a member of staff with a 1st they were probably the best their university course produced that year, but in the UK many won't hire you because they think you are a bookworm/geek and have no communication skills, so alot of student aim for a 2:1 belive it or not, to try an look normal and more employable!

My best advice for anyone who is bad at exams (my memory is bad due to a truck running over me!) is forget doing A-levels and go straight to a HND. If I had known this I could have saved wasting 2 years of my life

International students pay bucket loads over us EU students because our local taxes still cover about 70% of the true costs of Uni. Infact I got an EU Social fund to pay 100% of my Masters this year!

If you got 40% in many assignments, but 70+ in your final project it probably meant you missed the assignment hand in dates. Yeah it's cruel if it's late you only get a 40% grade no matter how good it is and it brings your grade average down. Never ever hand in late!

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 09:47
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GatorHex - now you explain it that way, the 70% rule does kinda make sense... Although if you hand in some work and there is literally nothing more you could have done to make it better, than it should get 100% - not 70%.

@Jeku: Easy may have been a bit of an exaggeration - but CS is definately nowhere near as hard as something like Law or Medicine. If you have to write a program to a certain spec - its much easier to get more than 70% for that than it is to write a comparative essay on the pro's and con's of criminal litigation (or some other OTT essay title like that). Also, quite a few of my exams were made of questions where the answers were either right or wrong - ie, you had a chance of getting 100% on a paper made of those question types. You will NEVER get an exam like that in Law.

Thats one of the things I dont like about degree's (UK or International). Although they're graded on the same scale, they're certainly not equal in terms of difficulty and therefore you certainly cannot compare a 1st in Computer Science to a 1st in Medicine, Law or any other "top" degree types. My girlfriend did Law at UEA and came away with a 1st. I went to Essex and came away with a 2:2 (0.6% off a 2:1), however if I'd put in the same level of effort as she did - I would have got close to an average of 90% overall. If she's done the same effort I'd done, she probably wouldn't have made it past the 2nd year.

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Fallout
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 10:21 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2007 10:28
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Quote: "If you take on a member of staff with a 1st they were probably the best their university course produced that year, but in the UK many won't hire you because they think you are a bookworm/geek and have no communication skills"


That's complete rubbish I'm afraid mate. The problem is that a lot of people who get a 1st ARE bookwork geeks with the social skills of a rabid badger. No companies will refuse an interview for someone just because they have a 1st. So as long as you're normal and personable, a 1st is only a good thing and you'll have a good chance at getting the job. Some people are smart and hard workers and still retain the ability to hold a conversation and interact with other lifeforms.

As for the 70% kinda thing, it's a little bizarre, but it makes sense. A 100% should mean flawlessly perfect - the best assignment ever written in this history of mankind. Therefore 70% range grades sit nicely in the "extremely good" category, while keeping them safely away from "the greatest assignment since the big bang". People do get 80%s in some assignments where they do incredibly well. In math based subjects, you can get 100%, when the mark is less to do with the quality of assignment for the subject area, and more to do with right and wrong.

I got a 98% on my coursework for one module in the final year, since it was a target based "right or wrong" assignment. All my other assignments which were papers or investigations into a subject area were under 80%.

The grading system makes sense to me.

Oh, and the honours thing .. that makes more sense now too. I think I got mine for my year in industry though, rather than concurrent coursework.


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 14:40
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Fallout - that can happen. If your CV makes you look too much like an academic rather than a general "normal" person, some companies wont bother interviewing. Sometimes people get 1sts because they can memorize and regurgitate a book within 2 hours. That doesn't make them a good candidate for the job.

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 18:32
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Quote: "If you have to write a program to a certain spec - its much easier to get more than 70% for that than it is to write a comparative essay on the pro's and con's of criminal litigation"


Yah, but how many programs does a CS grad even write throughout their 4 years. I found there were just as many essays. But I'll still disagree that a Law degree would be harder to achieve. Different, yes, as there is lots of memorizations involved. But some people are suited for that. Hell, I don't think I'd do well in a Psych degree, but many do, and I would never ask them to write an essay on CPU architecture

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Robin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 20:37
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Yeah I think I'm more suited towards the maths/physics type exams, where answers to questions are typically 'right' or 'wrong'. If you get the correct answer for all questions, you get 100%. simple. To obtain 100% in an english essay however, is a different matter.

I think if you compare the number of people getting 100% in a maths a-level exam (Which is quite commonplace) to the number of people scoring 100% in their english coursework/written exam, you'll see the difference.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 20:45
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I don't agree with the comment that Law or medicine is tougher than Computer Science. They are mainly research and fact based, in a computing course you not only have to learn facts and figures but also be creative and generate something new.

On my MSc Hons Internet Programming (just one module of three you take at the same time) we had 3 months to learn ASP, PHP, Perl, VB.NET and MySQL/MS SQL Server then code something in 3 of them talked to the databases.

It's like someone saying learn french, german, spanish, swedish this semester then writing the next harry potter in all but one of the languages.

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Manic
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 20:50
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I do Graphic Art and Design, my work is going to be marked on prettiness.

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Robin
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2007 22:13
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hehe...yeah that's an interesting one.
Are people sometimes awarded 100% for an art piece?

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 02:33
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Quote: "PhD - 5 years of research (er.. lifes too short i can't imagine another 5 years to just stick Dr infront of my name)"


And probably double your income.

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Manic
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 18:14
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Quote: "Are people sometimes awarded 100% for an art piece?"


no, its impossible, its marked subjectively, and not just on the final object.

Really we're marked on how well we resolved the brief we set ourselves, on my course it's more about the concept than your technical know how, although the execution is still very important of course.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 24th Feb 2007 19:52 Edited at: 24th Feb 2007 19:53
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Quote: "It's like someone saying learn french, german, spanish, swedish this semester then writing the next harry potter in all but one of the languages."

I don't really think so. It's more like learning a small part of each of those languages (say...200-300 words), and then writing some 10 page paper in them. Learning to program a language isn't as hard as learning another language, and making the next Harry Potter in all of them is like saying that then you would have to code "The Elder Scrolls: IV". Not easy, but not as hard as the comparison you made .


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Dazzag
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Posted: 25th Feb 2007 21:06 Edited at: 25th Feb 2007 21:08
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Quote: "If you take on a member of staff with a 1st they were probably the best their university course produced that year, but in the UK many won't hire you because they think you are a bookworm/geek and have no communication skills"
Partly agree. True if you get a 1st you are probably very good (lots of cheating in Uni mind), but not definitely the best that year. Just more likely than the rest, and they happened to be into studying at that time in their life. Friend of mine went to Uni on the train everyday wearing a tie and a briefcase. Never had friends or went out. Did well, but who the hell cares? Plenty of time to catch up later. He's my friend because he worked for me at one time

Do agree a bit about the not employing them bit. The people with 1sts that we interviewed tended to be either smug gits or super nerds (in a bad way). One guy smugly answered the "where do you see yourself in 5 years" with "doing your job". Heh heh. Very funny. Shame I have another 10 people to see today you smug t**t. Another showed detailed diagrams and code of this memory clearout routine he had written or somesuch. Sigh. Basically we employed people who looked like they could type (didn't always pan out BTW), had BSc Comp Sci degrees, and looked like the sort of people you could get on with.

However it's fairly obvious that a *lot* of companies don't care about personality or how they would fit in, and go after the 1sts. I've seen departments full of people like that. The silence (apart from typing) is deafening. Not good. Especially when people don't know the names of their neighbours after working next to each other for months/ years. Nah.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Represent
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 03:15
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This may be off topic but its necessary, Mattman, After all these years you still have the same icon..

Formerly known as xTransworldx, transworld punk, wheezy baby
Yes, im back.
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Mattman
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 13:27
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Because its still clever. Someone new copied me though, can't remember who it was...

Why make sense when you could make brownies?
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GatorHex
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 04:17 Edited at: 28th Feb 2007 04:20
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"where do you see yourself in 5 years".. "doing your job"

yeah seems noone wants to hire somone who is a threat


"I don't really think so...writing some 10 page paper in them"

I wish, my assignmet reports seem to average 55 pages. What you produce has to be of publishable quality to gain 70%


Just got given my first Java Advanced OOP assignment today. I've gota use OOP and design patterns to implement Fourier transforms on sine waves and Dow Jones stock market data (4 programs in total), document all the design stuff and write another damn report, and do a presentation.

Realistically (when you take into account 5 other assignments coming and only 6 weeks left) I've got a week to finish it.

http://www.KumKie.com http://bulldog.servegame.com
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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2007 08:21 Edited at: 28th Feb 2007 08:22
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Quote: "yeah seems noone wants to hire somone who is a threat"
Threat? Get off; I had about 7 years experience at the time. A first just means you put your head down in uni and didn't have a life (apart from a mate of mine who is border line genius if you ask me, plus has time to be the captain of the uni football side, a regular guitarist in a local band, write games for a french publisher, etc etc. Guy was a robot from the future or something). Just no-one (well, apart from those places with wall to wall slime) wants to hire someone who is covered in slime is all. Especially when there are dozens of other people wanting the same job with similar qualifications and experience (especially experience when you are a pleb who just left uni, first or no first).

I found you didn't have to write tonnes of pages to get the best marks, as long as you wrote a really professional decently researched document. They love that sort of s**t. Sound like a muppet and no matter how clever or long you go on for they tended to slap you down. At least in my place. Downside was your writing skills could easily out perform your IT skills in a lot of cases. Not saying it's right, but it seemed that way when I was in Uni.

Week to finish it? Loads of time. Get drunk for the next 6 days then get a gang of you to complete it (then slightly modify things for everyone making sure you put in a couple of mistakes here and there) on the last night. Basically working through the night. Pro plus helps. As does smoking and mixing coffee granuals with coke (drinking kind). Don't use beer (tried it once when doing a project and it really doesn't work). If you are gibbering like a fool around 3pm then simply find someone on your course who hasn't set their Unix permissions on their home folders. Then nick their work. 9 times out of 10 they have made a glaring mistake but it sets you on your way. At least this is how we did it when I was a lad. And all this was fields...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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