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Geek Culture / For all you web developers out there... MultipleIE

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Nicholas Thompson
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Location: Bognor Regis, UK
Posted: 26th Feb 2007 01:17
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http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE

Since IE7 came out with its own unique set of issues, one of which being the way it overwrites IE6, its been harder and harder to find a legacy machine to test my sites on. No more with MultipleIE.

It can install IE:
3.01
4.01
5.01
5.55
6.0

(me wonders why they did away with the 0.01 in V6... Maybe they had a floating point error? )

Very usefull app! Its nice to see my TMJ site works all the way back to IE 5 (bar some transparency issues I'm going to look into).

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hyrichter
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 02:27
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Oooh, I've definitely got to check this out. I, like most everyone else into web dev, have spent WAAAAY too much time trying to get sites that are W3C compliant, look good in FF, and in IE.

Thanks for the find.

Good performance is better than a good excuse.
CodeSurge -- DBP Editor for serious programmers.
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Steve J
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 03:17
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Not to mention work on PDA's and Cells. Unless you guys dont...?

Support Freedom by supporting fascism. For under hard conditions freedom prevails, while under stagnation, it crumbles to dust.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 05:10
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Getting websites to look the same on IE and FF is real easy, just use tables instead of DIV tags mixed with CSS.

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Dave J
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 09:27
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Yeah, but that goes against the W3C standards. Tables should be used for displaying relevant information only, not presentation.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 10:00
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Steve - Depending on your site, PDA's make up such a minority of viewers, the attainment is often not worth the effort. Wont be that way for much longer though as technologies like 3G come on.

Phaelax - using tables for layout is just wrong and they come with their own set of issues, such as cells not rendering until the contents has been downloaded. With DIV's the browser tends to try to render as it goes along which gives the impression of quicker page loads. Plus Tables can be a right git to debug sometimes - one misplaced <td> and you're entire layout goes to pot (although, depending on style, a misplaced DIV could do the same).

There is a LOT more to crossbrowser compatibility than using table's over DIV's. Generally speaking (from my experience), using DIV's works better than tables once you've allowed for bugs in IE like their screwy box model.

When I tried my TMJ site on IE5 (it worked perfectly in FF and IE7), the only thing I needed to add as a CSS hack was to allow for the border around the link buttons at the end of each teaser. There were a few issues in IE6 too.

Generally speaking, I've found the easiest way to design a site (and this is often the accepted way from most people i've spoken to in the industry) is to design a site in a standard compliant browser, like FF, and then apply any hacks to get it to work in non-compliant browsers. Its a right pain to get it to work if you do it the other way around.

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indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 10:38
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thanks mate, reminds me of anybrowser.com

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 10:46
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Quote: "is to design a site in a standard compliant browser"

Firefox is completely compliant? Since when?

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indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 10:54 Edited at: 26th Feb 2007 11:04
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KHTML browser 3.5.6 or Konqueror 3.5.6 appears to be the most compliant browser for CSS3.

shame hardly anyone uses it

here is a test bench you can slap around your monitor connected to that box with the wires n stuff.
http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/


Safari v 2.0.4 (419.3) that was based on KHTML but forked badly shows it in its test

It got
From the 43 selectors 21 have passed, 7 are buggy and 15 are unsupported
(Passed 336 out of 578 tests)

where as Firefox 1.5.0.8 on mac osx (yeah need to add V2.0+ as well)
From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported
(Passed 357 out of 578 tests)

where as Firefox 2.0.0.2 on mac osx
From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported
(Passed 357 out of 578 tests)


give it a try on your PCS mine are not on at the moment.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 10:58 Edited at: 26th Feb 2007 11:03
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Firefox 2.0.0.1 (2.0.0.2 install pending on restarting browser in a min)
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported (Passed 357 out of 578 tests)"


That is a DAMN nice site! Nice find Indi!

EDIT:
Haha... That site wont run in IE 5.5... Therefore a score of zero is awarded

EDIT 2:
IE6:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 10 have passed, 1 are buggy and 32 are unsupported (Passed 276 out of 578 tests)"


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 11:04
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Quote: "Firefox is completely compliant? Since when?"


Find me a more compliant browser for Windows XP and I'll use it (at least for testing).

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indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 11:04
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i get the same result for the FF2 OSX variant.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 11:17
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Quote: "Find me a more compliant browser for Windows XP and I'll use it (at least for testing)."

There's a difference between a browser being more compliant and a browser being completely compliant.

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indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 11:31 Edited at: 26th Feb 2007 11:36
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what does IE 6 and 7 get, without having to power up my other computers.

flock 0.5.15.0 OS X gets

From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported
(Passed 357 out of 578 tests)

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 12:12
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@Ben: I never said COMPLETELY compliant - you assumed that. I just said compliant which was meant as it sounds. Seriously, if you can find a more compliant browser than FF2 for Windows, I will happily use it - however right now, AFAIK, its the best browser out there in terms of compatibility for Windows XP.

@Indi: I posted IE6 above:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 10 have passed, 1 are buggy and 32 are unsupported (Passed 276 out of 578 tests)"


IE7 got:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 13 have passed, 4 are buggy and 26 are unsupported (Passed 330 out of 578 tests)"


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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 12:17 Edited at: 26th Feb 2007 17:06
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Summary of browsers:
IE7:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 13 have passed, 4 are buggy and 26 are unsupported (Passed 330 out of 578 tests)"


IE6:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 10 have passed, 1 are buggy and 32 are unsupported (Passed 276 out of 578 tests)"


FF 2 (Win and OSX):
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported (Passed 357 out of 578 tests)"


FF 1.5:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported (Passed 357 out of 578 tests)"


Safari 2.0.4:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 21 have passed, 7 are buggy and 15 are unsupported (Passed 336 out of 578 tests)"


Flock 0.5.15:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 26 have passed, 10 are buggy and 7 are unsupported (Passed 357 out of 578 tests)"


Opera 9.1:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 25 have passed, 3 are buggy and 15 are unsupported (Passed 346 out of 578 tests)"


So - in order of compatibility:
1. Firefox (1.5 and 2.0) / Flock
2. Opera 9.1
3. Safari
4. IE7
5. IE6

EDIT: Added Opera 9.1

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 12:43
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Quote: "@Ben: I never said COMPLETELY compliant "

No kidding, however you say it as though IE doesn't try to be compliant at all.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 12:51
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Does it? hehe (btw none of what i said was aimed at you personally - i just reread it and was quite "to the point").

I assume by your defensive attitude towards IE, you're "one of those"

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 12:55 Edited at: 26th Feb 2007 12:55
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Quote: "Does it?"

... A little bit . All I'm saying is that it's a little wrong to call one browser compliant and the other one not, when the supposedly compliant browser isn't 100% compliant. Maybe I'm just being fussy today.

Quote: "I assume by your defensive attitude towards IE, you're "one of those""

No way man. Firefox all the way.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 13:08
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Heh - so you just enjoy arguing fair enough!

Quote: "it's a little wrong to call one browser compliant and the other one not"


True - so I'll clarify. IE6 and 7 are less compliant than Safari, FF and Flock.
In fact, according to my maths, IE 6 is 14% less compliant than its more modern non-MS cousins

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indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 14:05
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thanks for compiling that nick, good work mate.

maybe benny isnt being compliant today

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 14:09
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Quote: "maybe benny isnt being compliant today"

Only 14% less compliant than others.

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indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 14:10
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haha thats ripe mate

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Steve J
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 16:49
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@Compliance: Opera passes the Acid2 test, and generally speaking is very compliant.

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 26th Feb 2007 16:58 Edited at: 26th Feb 2007 17:07
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/me goes to download Opera...

cheers Steve.

EDIT: Opera 9... Quite nice. Pretty quick. CSS Score (from above site:
Quote: "From the 43 selectors 25 have passed, 3 are buggy and 15 are unsupported (Passed 346 out of 578 tests)"


That puts it second, behind FF 1.5/2.0 & Flock but ahead of Safari 2.0 which is pretty good.

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Steve J
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 01:03
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. Always nice to help, Opera is very nice.

Support Freedom by supporting fascism. For under hard conditions freedom prevails, while under stagnation, it crumbles to dust.
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