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Geek Culture / Nintendo's big mistake

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Kentaree
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 12:39
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I think that after all the recent Sony bashing, someone should mention nintendo for a change:

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=74177

They recently announced gamespy will be partnering with them to provide online gameplay, however, they're still going with Wii friend codes, and what's ever worse, different codes for each games. So finding your friends between multiple games is impossible, unless you keep passing each other over a long series of numbers for each game.

In my opinion the friend code system to start off with was bad enough, but this is ridiculous...

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 13:12
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Depends on your angle.

The way Nintendo handle this stuff is to assume that anyone wanting to play online with friends, already knows them. Their systems are not designed as email and MSN replacements like Live seems to often be.

For your average adult gamer it's pointless and annoying, for concearned parents it just makes sense.

I'm dubious about letting my son play on Live with any old git that happens to be playing the same game - for games that he plays for long periods of time anyway, I've encountered some real a-holes on Live who I'd rather didn't play or communicate with my son.

This way, he'll play with pals from cub scouts and school only, or with me. With the sorts of games Nin makes, and the sorts of gamers who'll be playing, well I just think that people who are looking for hardcore online shooters are already on Live with 360's - if they're looking for that from the Wii then they backed the wrong console - the Wii is gonna be much more sandbox, you wont want just anybody joining your game. Imagine opening your town in Animal Crossing, only to find some git has chopped all your trees down, and taught your inhabitants a whole shedload of new swears. At least with this vetting procedure, you have security, your not having to play with chumps who are used to far more disposable gameplay.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Kentaree
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 13:41
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I agree to an extent, but it depends on the type of game aswell as you say. For games like animal crossing and the likes it makes sense to have a system something like this, as you can only interact with one person at a time, but when it comes to games with more players, I think the benefit of the extra security is null and void. You're still going to come across complete a-holes whether they're on your friend list or not, so why not make it easier to add guys you get on with so you can have fun games, rather than play with random people who you hate?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 14:11
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Isn't the whole 'friends code' the way the DS works? I guess they were just lazy, or didn't have enough negative feedback, and used it on the Wii too - to keep things consistent. I appreciate the 'security' aspect of it, but it's still very annoying - games like Crackdown on the 360 have an 'allow co-op from Friends only' option, which if they built into the likes of Animal Crossing, would stop the sort of destruction that Van mentioned. I think the bigger issue is that the Wii is SO much more 'kid' orientated at the moment that they have to be far more careful than XBLA ever did (especially as there are no fee's involved, so Nintendo can't actually DO anything to offenders other than block an account ID).

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007 14:30
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The DS does work like that on some games, like Animal Crossing, you can only really open your town up or visit one that you know the friend code for. But, with Metroid on the DS, that's more of a deathmatch scenario, so you just join a game in progress, no friend codes to mess with.

I does heavily depend on the game, but remember it's Nin, so if they had this free-join system on the Wii, there would probably be a lack of communication options and people would complain about that instead. Perhaps they should have a private friend code, that you give to your trusted contacts, but also the option to join non-exclusive games too. I think Nin are petrified of online paedophiles adopting DS's and Wii's like they adopted MSN, can you imagine the negative press if anything like this happend? - especially considering the point that Rich raises about what Nin could actually do if things got nasty. They can't even identify users, never mind banning them, so letting any perv run riot in some kids game is just not something Nin will do. Nin are playing big brother, but if they don't who will, parents? (pfft!).

There aren't enough options, but then there never will be, same goes for Live - I think both systems work and will work for each console, and if not I'm sure adjustments will be made (like Metroid on the DS having a simple and easy deathmatch joining system).


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Zeus
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 00:12
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Nintendo, always has something missing, this is why I like SONY better.

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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 00:31
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@Jordan - Nice trolling--- way to change our minds

I could be wrong, but isn't the PS3 the same way in that you have different friends lists for each game? I could have sworn.

While I can appreciate Nintendo trying to protect kids, I don't want to be punished for wanting to just join an active game and blowing away strangers. And again we have to understand that parents should not allow their kids to play online games if they're really that worried.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 03:54
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Quote: "Isn't the whole 'friends code' the way the DS works? I guess they were just lazy, or didn't have enough negative feedback, and used it on the Wii too - to keep things consistent. I appreciate the 'security' aspect of it, but it's still very annoying - games like Crackdown on the 360 have an 'allow co-op from Friends only' option, which if they built into the likes of Animal Crossing, would stop the sort of destruction that Van mentioned. I think the bigger issue is that the Wii is SO much more 'kid' orientated at the moment that they have to be far more careful than XBLA ever did (especially as there are no fee's involved, so Nintendo can't actually DO anything to offenders other than block an account ID)."

The more I read your posts about the Wii Rich, the More you sound like an anit-Nintendo pro Xbox! Being Anti is bad (Specially to Nintendo) but being pro is good!
Lol!


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Kentaree
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 11:22
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Jeku, you're correct, and doesn't the Wii have parental controls built in? Can't this be extended to games so that kids are more restricted than the adults?

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 12:51
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Quote: "The more I read your posts about the Wii Rich, the More you sound like an anit-Nintendo pro Xbox! "


I'm not anti-Nintendo, as a company I think they're incredible. I'm just anti "the Wii is amazing" - because it ain't. As a previous owner of one I know how utterly disappointing they are. The 360 kicks it in the nads on every single level. The Wii continues to sell massive numbers of units, but my money still backs this one as being a flash in the pan. The PS3 on the other hand, now that looks seriously interesting - and assume Sony survive financially, I reckon will be a solid investment this time next year. I can't wait to see what devs crack out of that uber hardware set-up.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 13:13
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I disagree with you on two fronts there, I don't see the PS3 as amazing, sure it has a cell processor (which was never intended to be used for games) and some other nice specs, but altogether it's not that awfully more powerful than the 360, and developers aren't going to bother making full use of the hardware if they develop multi-platform games.

The Wii is interesting, it has a lot of potential if they get move away from the party games and get some decent games out, nintendo will probably be the main innovator with their first party games. The Wii just has so much more potential than it's being used for, it barely matches up to the GC graphics as is with most games, I hope that'll change soon

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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 14:11
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Quote: "The more I read your posts about the Wii Rich, the More you sound like an anit-Nintendo pro Xbox!"


I will defend Rich here, simply because he posted a very constructive criticism a while back on the two machines which was very useful. And having owned both with no pressure from the vendors to review it, impartiality was the key.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 14:47
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Quote: "The Wii is interesting, it has a lot of potential"


This is what I disagree most with - I don't think it has hardly any potential that hasn't already been demonstrated. There are only so many things you can do with a Wiimote, and because the console can never hope to compete on the graphics / physics front, everything rests on the controller - and I just don't see how that will carry it for the 4-odd years required to last until the 'next gen' is due.

I'm sure devs will come up with hundreds of more ways to use the Wiimote, but it lacks so badly in the other core areas I struggle to see how it will elevate it beyond 'novelty'. You will never get a truly 'next gen' gaming sensation from it, it just doesn't have the horse power.

Think how incredible it COULD have been - imagine say the power of the PS3 or 360 with the Wiimote? Stick that into a stunning looking Star Wars game, where you swing the Wiimote around light-sabre style. It could have been mind-blowing, and it so nearly was.

The PS3 is the dark horse of the race, the one everyone loves to hate - yet I reckon the console will produce some stunning games, way beyond anything we've -ever- seen before. Sony and their attitudes might suck beyond belief, but hardware is hardware, unaffected by corporate claptrap, and the PS3 has it in spades, just like the PS and PS2 before it. It's a powerful gaming heritage and you'd have to be a fool to think it can't persist into this third incarnation. Give it a year, get the 2nd gen titles out and the inevitable price drop as the components become cheaper, and we'll see what it can truly do.

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Van B
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 15:22
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In hardware terms I never liked the PS2, it just never impressed me, ever, the Gamecube and XBox impressed the hell out of me but the PS2 was overrated - hell the Dreamcast gives the PS2 a run for it's money on the hardware stakes. The last game I enjoyed on the PS2 was Killzone, before that it was Half Life, and that's it!, there's no real point in me even owning a PS2.

Now the PSP is a strange one, because I firmly believe Sony are pushing completely the wrong games on it, probably just my opinions about what an enjoyable hand-held game needs. Like there's only a handfull of decent games for it, despite the fact that the hardware is unbelievable. I've been playing ATV vs MX, and it's just a great little game, but I've spent 100 times longer on the DS with it's paltry graphics and small screens. I think it just lends itself to the sort of game you want to play on a handheld, basically anything not made by EA . No offence to EA employee's, I'd rather play things like Burnout and NFS on a big screen is all, for me PSP versions just seem to be ported for the sake of it, not because they make good handheld games.

I'll probably wait a long long time before getting a PS3, like when you can buy one without a re-mortgage - I just can't justify the expense while my PC is so lacking. But it doesn't help that I have seen no footage of the PS3 in action, with like gameplay and stuff. Really at this stage, PS3 should be all over the place, rather than sitting waiting on it's loyal customers sell organs to buy one 'just because'. Sony pimped more fake footage when the PS3 was announced than we've seen in the last year. Maybe I just don't visit the right websites, but I would expect the Sony marketing machine to have caught me by now. I don't like hardware manufacturers throwing numbers around with no tangible proof, I'd rather wait a year and see how things pan out for it.


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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 20:27
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Yah, EA hasn't done a lot of stuff for DS lately. Their best sports game is Fifa 06 (and I believe Fifa 07) for the DS, but I'm looking forward to Pogo DS, Theme Park DS and Sim City DS, which are all supposed to be coming out soon.

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dab
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Posted: 16th Mar 2007 23:04
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Have you been developing anything lately for the consoles? or is it a big shhh project right now?

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Mar 2007 02:55
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Working on the Madden franchise now, on more than one console, and that's all I'll say about that. Good times

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Zeus
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Posted: 17th Mar 2007 15:40
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*coughs* Down with nintendo! *coughs*

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 17th Mar 2007 20:13
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Quote: "
This is what I disagree most with - I don't think it has hardly any potential that hasn't already been demonstrated. There are only so many things you can do with a Wiimote, and because the console can never hope to compete on the graphics / physics front, everything rests on the controller - and I just don't see how that will carry it for the 4-odd years required to last until the 'next gen' is due."


I tend to agree with Rich on this and I said pretty much what he just said, in this very forum, before the European release of the console.

Of course, I still believe that Nintendo will release enough "cool" games that rely on fun mechanics and likeable characters not to flog my Wii. Furthermore, I saw this motoracing game on a few PS3 demo pods and I was totally not moved by it: especially not in graphical terms.

But I still maintain that a year and a half from now everyone will already own a Wii and will move on to a stronger "fix". That's when PS3 may come onto its own. In the meantime I expect the X360 to be a good compromise and sell consistently well.

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Jess T
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Posted: 18th Mar 2007 01:32
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Not owning any console other than a PS2 and a DS, I'm not really in a position to make comments, but from my personal point of view, I have to agree with Miguel:

Quote: "games that rely on fun mechanics and likeable characters"


That's pretty much exactly what the DS and Wii are good for, and that's what I want to see.

Not having 20 parallel processors, or state-of-the-art graphics systems isn't a crux, it's a blessing. It takes the development of games back to the 'fun' stage where graphics was second to game-play, not first.

Hand me something that looks absolutely beautiful on the 360, and even something that may play nice, then throw me a Wii game that has those dodgy looking 'Mii' things in it, but which has gameplay up the wazoo, and I'll take the Wii game anyday.

Again, I'm not really in any position to comment, but that's my 2c

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 19th Mar 2007 05:56
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Quote: "I'm not anti-Nintendo, as a company I think they're incredible."

Sorry I should have re-worded that! And I did say it jokinly nothing malicous was meant! I do love the Wii (I'm a Nintendo Fan) But if I was offered an Xbox 360 at a lower then usual price I would buy it. I mean I didn't know you could play RTS's on it! It's game library kicks the Wii's (Currently) but that ownly because It was out I think 6 months earlier? I would go for the Wii/360 and frankly I don't see why you (Rich) don't like the Wii!

As for the PS3...
Bye bye Sony!



PS. Can somone please give me a link to an article or something that tells me the 360 is more powerful then the PS3. My brother doesn't beleive me! He thinks because the PS3 has blu-ray it's more powerful. Oh and he's not illiterat.
Thanks!

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Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 19th Mar 2007 10:18
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Quote: "It was out I think 6 months earlier?"


Almost a year actually. I agree with you completely. If I was given the choice between the Wii and the 360 I would normally choose the Wii, unless if it was the premium version of 360 at cheaper price(lets say 75$-100$ off). Sorry Wii, thats a sweet deal. Thats not how it is though right now.

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Van B
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Posted: 19th Mar 2007 10:57
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Jeez Theme Park DS rocks! - the import (Jap) version has English language included, but it's great, another DS must buy. You lay paths and place buildings with the stylus, it's all very intuitive and about as much as we could hope for, it's damn smooth even with tons of customers running around.

I hope Lionhead get more classics on the DS, like Theme Hospital and Dungeon Keeper - seems to be a great format for these older simpler sim games.

I got Konami Arcade Hits for DS as well, that's pretty good, Nemesis is one of my all time fave shooters, and you can't go far wrong with Contra.

Everytime I get bored of my DS they release some remarkably cool emulator or retro game and it's back in my good books, little flip screen minx that it is.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Jess T
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Posted: 19th Mar 2007 12:56
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Van,
Just out of curiosity, do you have a homebrew kit?

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Van B
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Posted: 19th Mar 2007 13:14
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It's something I've wanted to meddle with - got a good few ideas for DS stuff - even strongly saleable ideas. Maybe one day I'll have the time to learn C++/C#, I'd like to move onto XNA as well, but there's a lot of learning in that lot :/. I have all the gear, but it's mostly there so I can get emulators on it .


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Jonny_S
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Posted: 19th Mar 2007 15:32 Edited at: 19th Mar 2007 15:35
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XNA is cool and dead easy to use but there is a ridiculous subscription fee to get your games actually on an Xbox and there is currently no way to share your games. So imo its currently not worth it for an indie developer but I'm hoping that changes as time goes on.

Quote: "It takes the development of games back to the 'fun' stage where graphics was second to game-play, not first."

I couldn't agree more with that, so many games on the 360 have fantastic graphics and then either lack the gameplay or the lifespan (<< which usually involves crappy Live gaming).

I finally changed the bad spelling
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Raven
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I think a bigger problem on the Wii atm is actually the way user-accounts are accessed.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed but the only way to actually put the parental protection on the console, isn't per-account like on the xbox360 which if activated will not let you use it without signing into an account; but is open until you start playing a game. There was a recent issue found where many sites were accessible to children that shouldn't be because they got around the parental control system.

The GameSpy system that seems to being designed right now, actually sounds an awful lot like this currently system. (since they added parental controls), those who are on a restricted account are only able to play against those they have a game code for; this makes sure that you can only play with people you know and are also in the same age group.

This to me seems a bit overkill if a better parental control system was installed (akin to XBL) but overall it should make things safer while not irritating the adult gamers. This said we'll see how it pans out.
I think Nintendo are trying to get it so that multiplayer can be played in a social structure rather than how Microsoft provide it by making it more universal.

Different types of gamers, different types of console.
Although I do like my Wii, can't honestly say I want to play online with it.. might be cause there are no games that make me feel like I want to. If I want to play Multiplayer then people come over. My Xbox 360 however, just doesn't feel right NOT being online.

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Van B
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A critique of XBL I'd have is that sometimes it's subservant attitude when people go online is a pain - I'll be playing Dead Rising, and yet it'll still tell me when people come online, what they are doing, what they had for breakfast...

I reckon that it should only harass you like this on online games, or inbetween games - not when your halfway through a zombies neck with no intention of swapping games. That could have been usefull, like if it checked what games you have, then checked what games your friends who are online have, then suggested some stuff - like go co-op on Saints Row, or join 3 mates in a team on Gears. Most of the time those 'gimp is online' messages just annoy me, doubly so when it's a single player offline game.

Yet when I want to play my new FCredator maps nobody wants to know .


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Chris K
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Can't believe Nintendo are still selling like its launch day!

USA Feb figures:
# DS: 485,000
# Wii: 335,000
# PS2: 295,000
# 360: 228,000
# PSP: 176,000
# GBA: 136,000
# PS3: 127,000

DS + Wii is decking PSP + PS3 almost 3:1!!

Nintendo ftw this generation?!

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Steve J
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The PS2 is selling the same as the PS3 and PSP, thats telling you that it is popular right there.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
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Dr Manette
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Right now, I'm seeing a sort of dead time for consoles. They're all out, and we're waiting for all the great games to come out. Personally, I think the 360 is doing well because it's been out for a while and has the games behind, so people who were going for a Wii or a PS3 decided to instead by a 360.

What I'm hoping doesn't happen is the Wii loses it's possible standing because I doesn't have strong games. "Sand box" games are great, but they need more Twilight level games to really give them power. I also loath the friend codes, and it definitely disappointed me with Animal Crossing: Wild World. Hopefully, a lot of games won't use it, because it really worked for Metriod Hunters.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 21st Mar 2007 23:47
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Metroid Hunter's online system doesn't work. Wanna know why?
Check Nintendo's website. It will tell you that at *least* a hundred are playing at one time. I am a two star player. If I select "Match my Rank", that's what I expect it to do. Not pair me up against some person called "*Dark*" who is four star and has 40x the play time I have. If that's functional, so's Vista.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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DrewG
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 01:00
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Quote: "I'm not anti-Nintendo, as a company I think they're incredible. I'm just anti "the Wii is amazing" - because it ain't. As a previous owner of one I know how utterly disappointing they are. The 360 kicks it in the nads on every single level. The Wii continues to sell massive numbers of units, but my money still backs this one as being a flash in the pan. The PS3 on the other hand, now that looks seriously interesting - and assume Sony survive financially, I reckon will be a solid investment this time next year. I can't wait to see what devs crack out of that uber hardware set-up."


Yeah well the 360 only kicks there nads because they're out a year earlier.

and can this stupid console rivalry stop? I mean, unless you've done something to benefit the company/console, then why bother on giving your opinion, no one really cares.

-Drew
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Steve J
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 01:17
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exactly, shut the hell up Drew, nobody cares.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
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DrewG
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Exactly, so why are you posting?
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Raven
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 01:55
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Quote: "If that's functional, so's Vista."


Try using Vista before you start ragging on it!

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 05:56
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Quote: "Yeah well the 360 only kicks there nads because they're out a year earlier. "


No, we can say that about the PS3, but not the Wii.

I would liken the Wii came out of the starting gate of the race with a broken back and a senior citizen walker. The Wii, while innovative, is seriously lacking junk in its trunk.

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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 09:55
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The Wii seriously needs a killer title, as a lot of people have said about this already, a Star Wars game where you get to use a lightsabre would fill that gap. Red Steel is just not good enough from what I've heard, these are the games that people bought a Wii for, not Mario games, that damn game where you get to cut people with a virtual sword.

They should concentrate on that potential, the Wiimote is not a fishing rod, a tennis racket, or a freaking frying pan - it's a lightsabre waiting to happen, it's so obvious that I have no doubt a game like that is on it's way. Lucas Arts are incredible at feeling out gaming trends and meeting them, it's only a matter of time - they're no strangers to making Nintendo exclusives as well, just look at those weird NGC games they made (there's one with a disco intro FFS!).

So when we're all feeling the force, anyone who gave up on the Wii might feel some regret, you turned to the dark side, for shame, and now you don't get a lightsabre .


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
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Darth Vader
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 11:01
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That would be so cool to have a Lightsaber!
Oh I can't wait.


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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 11:03
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Quote: "Try using Vista before you start ragging on it!"


Ok, vista is a pile of sh*t

Nephin Games
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Zappo
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 15:16
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I...
(wait for it)
TOLD...
(its coming)
YOU...
(almost there)
SO!

Had to say it. Sorry .
I seem to remember saying this ages ago but the Wii's controller, while an excellent bit of technology, doesn't have the console to back it up. Sadly the Wii itself just isn't as capable as the competition and I fear that developers feel forced into adding support for the Wiimote in their games because of its 'gizmo' allure when a normal joypad would actually be better - and have longer and wider appeal. Don't get me wrong, its a nice box (tiny), its a great price, and it has some good features but it really strikes me as a kids toy rather than a modern games console. Perhaps some real killer games will change that, but I still think its relying to much on its one flashy feature. The term 'one trick pony' springs to mind.

Please don't take this post as an attack. Its meant to be funny and just my own views. I am only typing it because when I first gave my opinion I was attacked and called a 'Sony fanboy' and all sorts. Now it seems others are starting to look for 'substance' rather than 'shine' too.
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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 15:40
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I think you haven't read what we've been saying, at the moment the Wii is suffering from EXACTLY the same problem as the PS3; lack of proper games. Just because it doesn't have a cell processor etc doesn't make it a bad console! Hell, the PS2 is still outselling the PS3 and that console was less powerful than the Gamecube. Also, the DS is outselling the PSP 3 to 1 and the PSP is undoubtedly the more powerful console.

The term one trick pony is wholly inaccurate, seeing that apart from graphical push the Wii is capable of more different types of game play than both the 360 and the PS3 (innovation withstanding).

Sure, I'm a bit bored with it, yet I'm not going to sell mine because I know there's going to be good games out for it soon enough, I can survive by playing my gamecube games till then anyway, there wouldn't even be any guarantee I could do the same with my PS2 games if I got the Ps3

Nephin Games
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Zappo
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 17:25 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2007 18:41
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Quote: "Just because it doesn't have a cell processor etc doesn't make it a bad console!"

Of course. And having accelerometers doesn't make it brilliant. My point is that it needs more than that.
Quote: "The term one trick pony is wholly inaccurate, seeing that apart from graphical push the Wii is capable of more different types of game play than both the 360 and the PS3 (innovation withstanding)."

I think thats a very personal opinion. It has the unique ability to emulate a pointer on the screen (crudely and rather uncomfortably in my experience) but that doesn't really qualify as a different type of gameplay, especially as pointing the unergonomic 'remote' at the TV for long periods can actually be painful. I don't see anything else unique about it.
You are making lots of comparisons to Sony consoles in your post. I can only assume you see them as the main threat to the Wii? Personally, I think that its main threat is bordom from a limited range of titles available which are all written around the one feature of the console.
Quote: "Sure, I'm a bit bored with it, yet I'm not going to sell mine.."

Thats good, but don't let your love of it make you blind to the other consoles available.

Edit: The PS3 is launched at midnight tonight in the UK so I am guessing we are getting more launch titles than Japan or the US. I haven't looked, but I would hope so. Does anyone know?
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Three Score
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007 19:34
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lol...I wanna buy a wii just so that I can play This game when it comes out for wii and DS...will be great!
so delightfully addicting

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
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