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Geek Culture / Another AUDIOPHILE(audio enthusiasts) thread: THE MASSIVE DROP IN CD SALES AT MUSIC VENDORS. Post your thoughts.

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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 21:40 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2007 21:46
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In the first quarter of 2007, CD sales have already dropped 20% according to Neilsen Sound Scan. CDs are starting to be replaced by online music stores, but the average American doesn't know how much they're losing by downloading music.

First off, CDs sound better, A LOT BETTER. Audio files sound good, and can even EQUAL the quality of CD depending on bitrate and file type. CDs have a constant bitrate of 1.4 Mbps(1411) at 44 KHz. I did a test on iTunes, the average .AAC is 128 Kbps, I even saw some at 96 Kbps!!! What kind of rip off is that?!?!?!?

That's over a 1.2 Mbps rip off!

Many, many, many audiophiles have done tests with people on audio quality. I think most audiophiles would agree that 128 Kbps is, well, sub-standard quality. Even 160 Kbps isn't that good. I found that 192 Kbps was good, but high pitches get some noise polution. 256 Kbps may sound very excessive, but to audiophiles it isn't. I usually rip at 192 Kbps if it's an album I don't listen to much, but other than that I usually rip at 256 Kbps, most humans can't hear the difference above that line. Back to CDs.

Now with the age of SACDs (how dare I mention them), why would you want something at only 128 Kbps? SACDs have 5.1 Surround Sound complete 48 KHz, sometimes 88KHz, and a bitrate of 1.5 Mbps per channel (estimated).

Please people, buy a CD once in a while.
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Peter H
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 21:46 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2007 21:47
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I think we should go back to records...

though i admit i don't bother to own any records... all my music i bought on CD. If i'm driving the car i'll bring my CDs as they sound better... only time i listen to music on the mp3 player is on the plane or if i'm with a big group driving somewhere and i'm not the driver.

but yes, the amount of quality taken out when converting to mp3s is disgraceful... the worst part is that the majority of people don't even notice
(they probably would notice if they listened to a CD quality than mp3 quality next to each other)

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
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FredP
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 21:58
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Bring back 8 track tapes...
The answer to the question is simple...
Why do I want to drive 12 miles to buy a cd when I can purchase the music online and download it immediately?
And if I did want to buy a cd I can do that online as well.

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 22:57
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I personally have never forked for downloadable music. I just don't "feel" the value in it... I like the tactile satisfaction of removing the shrink wrap and thumbing through the lyrics booklet as I listen to music.

I have vague plans for World Domination
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soapyfish
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 23:17
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Perhaps if CD's weren't such a rip-off sales wouldn't be dropping. I don't mind paying £15 for a CD because a decent album can give me many, many months of entertainment but I'd feel a lot better about it if I knew the artist was getting the majority of my money.

I buy cd's because I like having them there as a collection. Plus I don't have to worry about losing all my music if my computer decides it wants to go dodgy.

What really gets me is people who pirate music and then look at me like I'm an idiot when I tell them I pay for mine.

We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate but we're also easily swayed!
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ionstream
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 23:35
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Sure, if you're the obsessive-compulsive type where a barely noticeable difference in sound quality can set you off, then compressed audio files are somewhat of a bad deal. For the rest of the sane people, it doesn't really matter too much. MP3's and the like are many times more convenient than CDs, with a minimal loss of quality, and for that they are a good deal.

That's not as bad as you think you said.
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2007 23:45
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@soapyfish

Yea, I can't stand pirates. There are so many people downloading illegally, it doesn't feel right to me, I hope people would stop downloading illegally, I know what copyright infringement feels like, without the copyright (had some of my work stolen before).

@ionstream

You're obviously not and audiophile, if you were, you wouldn't be downloading music, and you'd appreciate music a little more.
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Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 00:50 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2007 00:50
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Quote: "Sure, if you're the obsessive-compulsive type where a barely noticeable difference in sound quality can set you off, then compressed audio files are somewhat of a bad deal. For the rest of the sane people, it doesn't really matter too much. MP3's and the like are many times more convenient than CDs, with a minimal loss of quality, and for that they are a good deal."

i think that poor sound quality effects people regardless of whether they consciously notice it. So you may not care about the difference, but i think it hurts your mind anyway

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 00:59
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I know someone like ionstream. He always records audio or saves it in an 8-bit 11 KHz format. It annoys me to the extreme. No matter how much I tell him about audio quality, he never cares. Not to mention he takes sounds from old games and other places, and records them in careless standards (considering he doesn't care that people worked hard to make those sounds and music).
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ionstream
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 01:09
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Well, saving at 11 kHz is the opposite side of the spectrum. I'm like way in between. That being said, I envy that guy .

That's not as bad as you think you said.
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 01:26
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lol. You should see the way he lives. YOU DO NOT WANT TO ENVY THAT GUY! Not to be mean or anything, he kind of needs, how do I put this, a "life". Well, I kind of need a "life" too, a half "life" but not as bad as him. lmao though.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 01:29
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Quote: "he kind of needs, how do I put this, a "life"."

So do other people it seems.

To be honest, a 128k bitrate MP3 sounds just fine to me, although it's always quieter than a higher bitrate for some reason..

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 01:34
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@Benjamin

Low-end or up-converting speakers. I can see what you mean though. But once your hear them on a movie with 5.1 Surround Sound, I think you might change your mind. I suggest a good 192 Kbps, if it's a more "quiet song" I usually rip at that, if it's important or a favorite song maybe 256 Kbps?

But I think you want some compression for space reasons. That's okay too.
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The dude guy
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 03:31
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Quote: "@soapyfish

Yea, I can't stand pirates. There are so many people downloading illegally, it doesn't feel right to me, I hope people would stop downloading illegally, I know what copyright infringement feels like, without the copyright (had some of my work stolen before).

@ionstream

You're obviously not and audiophile, if you were, you wouldn't be downloading music, and you'd appreciate music a little more."

Not to defend pirates, but I've heard the musicians barely make any money off the CD's. I don't know if its a lie or not, but yeah.
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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 04:03 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2007 04:03
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Quote: "Not to defend pirates, but I've heard the musicians barely make any money off the CD's. I don't know if its a lie or not, but yeah."


And that makes it better how? To choose between "barely" any money and no money, I'm sure they would all choose the "barely" option.

Thing is, CDs are so cheap here, as new ones are mostly around $12-15 CDN. I think we must have probably the cheapest legit CDs you can buy. That being said, it's not illegal to download music in this country, so we're not obliged if we don't feel like it.

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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 04:40 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2007 04:41
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@Jeku

Copyright infringement of free music is legal in Canada?

Actually, I heard all kinds of agencies are cracking down in the US. With so many people losing money with p2p's and torrents, I wonder how pirates get away with it.

Maybe it's the volume, 18 million or so people use l****ire, I'd estimate about 85 to 90% of the people who use it are breaking copyright laws in their area. Had a big assembly at my school about it, even though the large majority of us are adults and realize this problem. Colleges and their assemblies.
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indi
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 04:47
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Perhaps you might take a look at the new EMI/ ITUNES setup with higher quality downloads and no DRM restrictions.

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The dude guy
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 05:13
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Quote: "And that makes it better how? To choose between "barely" any money and no money, I'm sure they would all choose the "barely" option.

Thing is, CDs are so cheap here, as new ones are mostly around $12-15 CDN. I think we must have probably the cheapest legit CDs you can buy. That being said, it's not illegal to download music in this country, so we're not obliged if we don't feel like it."

Not everyone pirates music, it wouldn't be that much of a loss, but you're right, it would still be a loss.
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heartbone
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 05:38
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I've gone looking for Steely Dan's Everything Must Go (2003) CD with no success. I like to go to the record shop but with so many CDs nowadays, I guess that business model is going the way of the dodo.
A wider selection at the shops would help, but I'm sure the inventory cost would be too great.

Internet/mail order Amazon/NetFLIX is the future, but the delayed gratification is definitely a deterrent.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 21:26
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@The dude guy
A LOT of people pirate music. The RIAA reports thousands (this year millions) of pirates. I think they're conducting around 300 waves of raids in order to stop music piracy. Last year there were around 50,000 wasn't there? This year is supposed to get into the millions.

@heartbone

I usually just order the CDs offline anyways.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 21:43
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When the music industry starts putting out music worth listening to, I'll start buying CD's again. As it stands, all of these bands, like Fall Out Boy and Yellowcard and all that, they all sound exactly the same, and the sound is horrible.

When Radiohead, Blur, and Beck put out CD's, I buy those (like Thom Yorke's Eraser), but otherwise, I'm not hearing anything worth listening to. I haven't watched MTV since 1999 because they don't show videos anymore (and when they do, they're from crappy bubblegum pop stars, cheezy pop-punk groups who never would have survived in CBGB, and these garbage pop-rock bands that all sound identical). I say kill the music industry, and kill it hard. Or at least kill it to a point where the corporate brass say "hmm, well, maybe we should go back to trying different things and finding bands with a unique sound." Modern A&R reps don't have an ear for talent, and while I'm praying that's only my opinion, there doesn't seem to be much proving it wrong .


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 22:03 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2007 22:04
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@Matt Rock

I'm guessing your the MTV popular music only restriction kind of person. I almost NEVER listen to that junk. I listen to about 95% indie or extremely hard music to find. This one band I like, I had to wait 11 weeks for the CD to come in the mail. 7 weeks for FYE to order a copy from the production company, who don't exist anymore, then put it in their system (2 weeks). Then another 2 weeks for shipping from overseas! You should really get into the indie world, very much worth it. That band got 4.8/5 stars for their record, it was ethnic (don't laugh) and techno.

Use this website to find music similar to the bands you like

The Music Genome Project: http://www.pandora.com
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 22:24
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Indie bands though are rarely hurt by file-sharing services and online music stores like Connect and iTunes. In fact, file-sharing tends to help indie bands because fans put music on these P2P networks and tell their friends to download the songs they might dig. It might drive up album sales for those indie bands by supportive indie music community members. I know for a fact that this works from personal experience and the experiences of my friends' bands.

As far as MTV is concerned... MTV is dead. For years I've been saying it should change it's name from "Music Television" to "Television Television," or "TTV," because all they ever show now is stupid "reality" shows (and it's funny, because there's nothing actually real about a reality show). I'm a firm believer in the "stupidification" (to quote George Carlin) of American society, and I think MTV is a major culprit in that. When they made MTV2 and had 24-hour music videos airing, I was like "cool, at least now for a few more years we'll have music," but what is MTV2 now? They use it to air re-runs of the same reality garbage they show on MTV. The sad part is, G4 is going the same way, and they've been doing it for a while now. Once they merged with Tech TV I could already see it happening, and sure enough, now they're showing Star Trek and The Man Show and all of this stuff that they think appeals to teenage boys, but little of it having anything to do with video games. At least I still have HBO, Comedy Central, and BBC America ... the only stations I can watch without upsetting my tummy.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Manic
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2007 22:27
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yes, there is a loss of quality in downloaded music, and its not going to change until people have more storage and faster broadband, and even then it'll take a couple of visionaries to convince your average consumer that higher quality recordings are better.

However, I'd defy anyone to say that downloading tracks has made music (in the general industry/art sense) worse. It has helped level the playing field and wrestled some control away from the companies and back into the hands of the fans. More independant musicians are breaking through into the mainstream, just through the power of their fan base.

here's a thought though, you know how audiophiles always go on about vinyl's superior sound quality and warmth over CD (even though its actually an effect from the imperfection of the format). Do you think one day when we are transferring files that are perfect copies of the original, will people look back listfully at the days of "128k warmth"?

well.... probably not.

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The dude guy
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Posted: 4th Apr 2007 00:32 Edited at: 4th Apr 2007 00:32
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Quote: "I'm guessing your the MTV popular music only restriction kind of person. I almost NEVER listen to that junk. I listen to about 95% indie or extremely hard music to find. This one band I like, I had to wait 11 weeks for the CD to come in the mail. 7 weeks for FYE to order a copy from the production company, who don't exist anymore, then put it in their system (2 weeks). Then another 2 weeks for shipping from overseas! You should really get into the indie world, very much worth it. That band got 4.8/5 stars for their record, it was ethnic (don't laugh) and techno.
"

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Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Apr 2007 02:22
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I can think of two reasons for CD sales dropping:

1. Current mainstream music sucks
2. I can buy most DVDs for the price of an audio CD.

The last few CDs I bought were actually used.


When AudioGalaxy first started, it was a great site to find new bands related to music you like. Shame it went so far down hill.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 4th Apr 2007 03:05
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Same thing that happened to Myspace unfortunately. I'm sort of at a loss because I want to find some really good bands that aren't signed who would give me music to use in a game I'm making. We win because we'd have an awesome soundtrack, and they'd win because they'd get some free exposure and whatnot. But no one is going to win because I can't find a place where I can contact bands anymore. Everything turns into a bloody social networking site


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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That C++ Nerd
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Posted: 4th Apr 2007 04:16 Edited at: 4th Apr 2007 04:17
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@Phaelax

I buy used CDs all the time, they're basically the same as new CDs, considering most music vendors only take used CDs in good condition.

@Matt Rock

I contact bands all the time, a good 80% say yes when I ask about music, the other 20% say they need to talk to their manager, and never get back to me.

HINT: You need to find their own little private sites.
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