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Geek Culture / Problems of being an indie game developer

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Josh
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 19:22
As a serious question;

What are the biggest problems and annoyances you guys have to deal with as indie game developers?

Inspire
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 19:27
Lack of money, lack of time.

GatorHex
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 19:40
No money
People steal you work.
etc.

My 1st game I sold to a magazine for use on it's coverdisk, only got paid £75 back in 1990. Then some git started selling it on Public Domain floppies for £1.99 a go. i only caught him because he sent it in to a magazine for review!

http://www.KumKie.com http://bulldog.servegame.com
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 19:52
No money, no time and my latest, health.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 19:55 Edited at: 14th Apr 2007 19:56
No sex (ie. no different than now).

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 20:01
Ben, I have a cat you might like.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 20:09
Cool...

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Apr 2007 20:20 Edited at: 14th Apr 2007 20:20
How about lack of completely original ideas? I've seen and played hundreds of cookie-cutter indie games (i.e. run-of-the-mill RPGs or tile-flip-match-3 puzzle games). I believe the only way to make money in indie games is to do something different, perfectly. If you do something the same as the commercial companies do, you are 99.99% guaranteed to do a crappier job as one-man outfit. But if you do something unique then you can be top of your game. No pun intended.

Dared1111
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 00:09
Cows and their milk... GROSS UHT!!!!
but nice lovely milk.., but i really like uht, its ok as long as you dont keep it in the mouth too long

but the real problem is motivation... how many plugins can you see around here:LOTS!!! and games:VERY FEW!!!!

[link]"http://www.greatgamesexperiment.com/user/Dared1111/" my account on GGE[\link]
Xenocythe
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 00:27
Lmao Sep, that was a good one

I'd have to say lack of time




...



Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 00:33
Quote: "Lmao Sep, that was a good one"

I wouldn't have said a good one, he walked into it after playing the role of a cat for so long, I can't help it if I have so many Cats and one Benjamin, a cat joke would arise eventually.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Shadow heart
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 01:34
no money, hard to get ppl to help

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
Phaelax
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 02:31
Quote: "My 1st game I sold to a magazine for use on it's coverdisk, only got paid £75 back in 1990. Then some git started selling it on Public Domain floppies for £1.99 a go. i only caught him because he sent it in to a magazine for review!"


A similar thing happened to me. Just randomly came across a website (in another language) in google cache and someone was selling a CD full of desktop wallpaper. I immediately recognized one of the images as being a wallpaper I had posted on Deviant Art many years ago. I never gave any permission.


soapyfish
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 03:53
Getting people to buy your game.

We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate but we're also easily swayed!
Jess T
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 06:10
Lack of planing and project knowledge.

When I started indi deving I was just a kid with a keyboard.
Now, I understand projects need to be planned, layed out, and structured correctly otherwise they just fall in on themselves.

Time and money aren't concerns, really.
If I'm keen on an idea, I'll lose alot of sleep over it. Sometimes gets to the point where even my dreams are about giant if statements crashing my world, etc
Money - you don't need to pay a dime to read all the online resources there are out there. The Visual Studio Express edition is free - it's just the time. (Of course, I'm talking about C++ deving here ).

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TKF15H
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 09:41
Work from 9am to 6pm, classes from 7pm to 11pm. Hours from midnight to 5am are reserved for talking to the girlfish over Messenger.

Time is a concern.

Tom J
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 11:09
Lack of time and ability to make media.

I'd better check that nobody has pinched my game without permission

Jess T
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 11:23
Heh TKF15H, sounds like you need to get some sleep!

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Josh
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 12:16
It seems to be a concurrent theme that indie devs may be good at creating games, but are not so good at the business and management side of things. However time is probably the major issue here as most are either in full time education or work.

I guess those are issues the individual needs to work out by themselves...

Jess T
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 13:03
I had a massive post, but it sounded really negative, so it's gone

Instead, I'll just say:

Time can be an issue, for example in TKF15H's case, but even if there's only a couple hours a day available, it really comes down to a management problem. Learning to plan and follow through on those plans is really quite a good things to know

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 13:34
Much agreed Jess T, that's one of the reasons why Ronin never worked out, I am an extremely disorganised person. But hey, I'm learning from it.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Phaelax
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 13:57
It would be interesting to talk to some of the indie developers that actually made it. In the early days of Psygnosis 2 programmers basically just worked from their garage. And I think Looking Glass (Thief series) started out as a small indie group as well. Graphics weren't the best, but it was a great game.


Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 14:06
I'm very focused with Geisha House. Time is a major factor. It is extremely difficult for one person to do that amount of work. However, time can be managed. Money is a factor as well. I've spent a bit of money on Geisha House. Lots of games around here all look the same because people don't have money to spend on their games.

I think that the biggest problem for indie developers, especially around here, is biting off more than we can chew with our game ideas. For some reason we all think that we can use Dark Basic to create huge, complex games when most people have never completed even a simple game. I suppose that people like to think big, but it is not conducive to completing games.


Come see the WIP!
Josh
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:19 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 15:20
When I'm developing I usually won't work on something for weeks, then when I get a free day I'll spend 8 - 12 hours solid working on it.

I'm not the kind of person to draw out hundreds of detailed designs and plans, although I can if I really want/need to. Rather I'll do a crappy sketch of what I want it to end up like so I don't forget it, and then I'll start coding it. I find it easier doing it that way as things quite often change during development.

Jess T
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:27
Unfortunatly, Josh, that's the exact reason why alot of indie projects don't get finished.

They sucumb to what I can "Feature Creep" - "Oh, that would be nice..." and all of a sudden it's something completely different from what you started out to make.

If, however, you take one of those 8-12 hour working days and plan out a project (no coding), I'd say you'd be able to do quite alot more work within the next 8-12 hour stretch than you normally would.

As an example, for a Uni project right now, we have 4 months (starting a month ago) to plan a game out. The time to develop the project is another 4 months.
We're using the OpenUP/Basic project planning technique.
Even though none of the four of us on the team have used OpenUP before, and none have worked on a group project, we can already see the massive benefits to actually planning this thing out.
It's kind of unreal when you think that a month ago we only had an "Oooh, this'd be a cool game to make!" idea, and now we have so much fleshed out, keeping the 'features' to a minimum so we can get the core planned, etc, etc.

It's quite alot to do, and I'm not saying that an individual indie developer should take on the OpenUP/Basic framework, but something like it, or even just a structured approach to developing would improve productivity 10 fold, if not more!

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Josh
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:33 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 15:35
Yeah that is very true.

However with the web ring for example, I've just re-coded how some of the pages work, and now they are much better. I didn't originally plan for the changes but while developing the web ring I discovered a better way to do things.

Being able to stay focused to the original aim and reason for a task is very important. I always make sure I'm going to end up with something which meets the original criteria I had for the project.

I do think that I need to pay more attention to "feature creep" though.

Jess T
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 15:42 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 15:44
That's one of the major things that the OpenUP/Basic doco's emphasizes; Plan it for the best architecture at the start.

In writing down the architecture for our game (which I finished the first revision of just last week, and will do another revision this week), I started with a very basic idea, that would have worked quite well, but then as I wrote it down, I realised there was better ways to do it, so I changed what I'd written down.
Normally, I wouldn't have noticed the better way until it was too late.

As an example, today I had to refactor some code for a DS game I made (my Spider Solitaire DS game) because when I first did it, I didn't plan how to I would be loading images.
After writing an app in DBP (took 15 mins) to convert all my images over to a better, smaller, quicker filetype, I then had to spend about 3 hours rewriting the image loading/displaying functions and changing the way they were called.
Caused quite a headache that could have easily been avoided if I had planned the project from the start.
[EDIT] Meaning that I would have only spent 15mins rather than over 3hours [/EDIT]

Admittedly, I've done this a number of times in the past too, and I still haven't learnt from my own mistakes, but none-the-less, my point still stands

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
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Lazlazlaz 1
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 16:42
I find my problem is too many ideas that are way beyond my skill level. I still havent finished off a single game yet, prob cos I get distracted way too often.

David R
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 20:24
That OpenUP/Basic thing looks incredibly useful Jess, thanks very much for pointing it out - I'm definitely going to have a go with that as soon as I have time to do so.

I have a huge PC-free exam period coming up very soon, but 10 weeks of absolutely nothing afterwards, so I can hopefully get an incredibly large volume of work done during that period (in which such a planning method would be good)


Miguel Melo
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 21:15
I normally say that my problem is finding people to help and, namely, to produce art. While this is very true and certainly a factor, I now believe my main problem is a lack of drive (and a short attention span to boot).

Being honest, it's a bit like learning a new language: if you (or at least I) want any sort of sustained development and improvement, you must take classes. You must have spend money to force yourself to commit, and then have a certain time per week allocated for classes where you have to go and face other people and only do _that particular thing_. Any attempt to do something worthwhile in the comfort of your home, with no one to report to (doesn't need to be a boss, it can be a peer/a fellow developer) just ends up fizzling away.

Which takes me back to my first comment: if I could find a fellow developer would I be able to carry it through? Possibly, as I would feel obliged to do it because he was banking on me as much as I was banking on him. But in hindsight what I would be happening is I would be boosting my drive, which remains the crux of the problem, from without.

I have vague plans for World Domination
Jeku
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 21:47
As soon as it starts feeling like a job or a chore, I will quit. Honestly it's not worth shedding hair over. Ideas are a dime a dozen, so honestly it's okay to stop and start projects. However, much respect can be gained by actually finishing a good game, regardless of how large and deep it is.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 08:04 Edited at: 16th Apr 2007 08:10
Regardless of background, there's just so many factors that stand in the way of budding game developers. It's actually rather surprising how many are produced at all. While the quality varies, even the most mundane games takes a level of commitment to complete. Which is probably one of the biggest factors. Developing games for a passion is one thing, but out of obligation is something entirely different.

Ignoring media / skill (experience), developers need to sort out their tool set early on (language/mapping/animation/collision/lighting/Physics/AI etc etc ). Identifying the base potential is important. So we need to find what's strength and weaknesses these tools have ? This is important for the design process, so conceptually we can design projects that fit the tool set from day one. There's no point trying to force a square peg into a round hole. No matter how much fun that is

The temptation is to run off now and start building your final vision. Some people can do this really well, not me however. I find that once the tools are sorted, it's important to flesh out your game layer. Regardless of the language you're using, you can be assured it won't work entirely how you want it to. So by building some base function sets, we can abstract our game code from the language underneath. The idea is that these layer(s) of code are generic enough that we use them project to project. Think of them as a quick start frame work that connects all the components together. Over time this frame work will evolve as our ideas/skills evolve.

Ok so that probably sounds like a lot of work to just get to stage one, but the idea is that we can save ourselves time and effort by streamlining the process before we rush out and start our next behemoth. Once we're happy, then start prototyping our base ideas using our kit. Initially this is where a lot of hiccups are discovered, these might be things with the tools, your game layer, or just unforeseen complications. Whatever the issue, it's up to you to choose the path forward. Be it solve them or just accept them as limitations and move on with your design. Of the course the latter might indeed rule out some features of your game. It's always going to be compromise.. We can't do everything !

Once you've built a working prototype to show your design works. Then we can start seriously looking at the building the game itself. As the programmer, It's so tempting to hardcode all the functionality into the actual game engine (maps/layout of characters/specials/high sores/ etc ect). This is a huge mistake (since this makes the programmer the keyman!), Rather we want to build the game so that it can play whatever level we want it too. So while the programmer's) will most likely build in custom code control enemies behavior for example through the game world. The layout and world space should be done externally. Sometimes this is achievable from generic tools, but you'll often need to build a simple (no frills, but functional) tool to drop characters/set times/bonsus etc etc into worlds/levels. This way anybody in the group (or externally) can contribute to the content creation process.

Imagine your building an Arkanoid clone with 100 levels say. Sure you could use data statements and layout them out internally in the code. But no matter how much you love your game, this is going to get old real fast ! Hence, if we make a simple external editor, we can share this work across the group. Not only that it opens up the door way for to build expansions at some latter date.

The point of this ramble is just to re-iterate the importance of design. The bigger the project, the more important it becomes.


This is massive subject, so here's some
More Tidbits

Jess T
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 13:27
There you go, Kevin nicely summarised pretty much any and every good software development process out there

(btw, the "Waterfall" process is NOT a good one )

Thanks for that link, too, I like the points you posted up on your forum - quite valid and always good to keep in mind. (Damn Calypson is a good artist!)

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Van B
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 14:42
I'm finding that having the level editor and engine in one place is a great way to keep it interesting and fluid to design your game. In my last project I have a level editor built right into the game, and you can test your level very quickly and make adjustments - it's a really nice way to work. We actually designed all the levels inside the game, then organised them according to difficulty for the full game.

I'm convinced that spending some time on your editors and tools, tidy them up and stuff, that accelerates your progress because once you have a neat tool that everyone can use a coder can move onto other things - often coders end up doing jobs they wouldn't have to if they neaten their stuff up and document it properly. Even if your in a team of 1, I still say that a neat GUI can fuel progress.

If your level editor is not pretty enough to release, then just disable it or make it accessible through a secret route - nobody bothered to look, but the level editor is in Illogic. Thing is that most people won't want to edit levels, it's for your own and teams benefit that you'd make your editors nice. Thing is, once you know how to put together a decent GUI, doing the same in other tools and projects is very quick, it actually cuts down your coding time if you can reference arrays for the GUI, add tools by adding indices, store your buttons or icons on a grid and reference them that way.

I think though that the #1 hurdle in indi game development is not money, it's time. I'd love a month off work, getting up in the morning to work on a project rather than drag myself to work. It's funny but that's what I do with most of my holidays, I take the Friday and Monday off and work the whole weekend. I mean I work most nights for a couple of hours, but it's amazing what you can do with a whole week of peace and quiet let alone a month.

Personally I'm looking forward to retirement, I'm only 32 but damn how sweet will it be!, there's no denying that I'll still be doing this at that age, it's the reason why I learned to read! - can't always have someone to read out code listings for you .


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Drew Cameron
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Posted: 19th Apr 2007 13:41 Edited at: 19th Apr 2007 13:42
I now have to split my time between full time job, website design, milk paton, the gym and more.

It's like having 3 full time hobbies at once (film, games, websites).

I do have time; just not as much as I used to.

Time for me!

Kentaree
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Posted: 19th Apr 2007 13:59
I don't really have the motivation for games dev at the moment. I've got lots of ideas floating around my head, but when I finish work and go home I just can't bring myself to sit down for a serious coding session, more messing about if anything.

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 19th Apr 2007 14:46
I'd agree with that Kentaree; very true.

Zaibatsu
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 00:55
my inability to follow tutorials unless they're EXTREMELY basic...

what I can do is limited to what I can figure out for myself...

on this note: does anybody have any REALLY basic Milkshape tuts?

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality"

SageTech
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 02:11
I think the problem is in many cases, lack of quality media. I know plenty of ace coders who suffer from bad media. I would be one of those unfortunate coders.


Battle Legacy: Online Third Person Shooter
Look for it on the WIP Board!
david w
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 04:47
#1 Time
#2 Motivation to actually code after a 8-10 hour work day at the mines.
#3 2D and 3D artwork/media
#4 Bugs in tools and trying to figure out a workaround.
Wiggett
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 05:09 Edited at: 20th Apr 2007 05:09
#1 being an indie game developer. it's a problem in itself

Syndicate remastered: Corporate persuasion through urban violence.
DrewG
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 05:25
Quote: "I think that the biggest problem for indie developers, especially around here, is biting off more than we can chew with our game ideas. For some reason we all think that we can use Dark Basic to create huge, complex games when most people have never completed even a simple game. I suppose that people like to think big, but it is not conducive to completing games."

Yeah I agree. I mean, I've done two fairly basic projects, that weren't the greatest, but honestly, nobody wants to start small. There may be a select few, but mostly everyone wants to create games that compete with the industry.


Quote: "I don't really have the motivation for games dev at the moment. I've got lots of ideas floating around my head, but when I finish work and go home I just can't bring myself to sit down for a serious coding session, more messing about if anything."


Yeah, same here. I have 7 hours of school, with 1-3 hours of homework, so soon after, I want to relax, and watch TV or something. Lately I've been buckling down and have been working on my current project someone in this forums knows somewhat about.
Shadow heart
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 05:58 Edited at: 20th Apr 2007 05:59
Quote: "I've done two fairly basic projects, that weren't the greatest, but honestly, nobody wants to start small."


Yeah i dive into big projects (sometimes too much for me to chew)and I just finished a basic game a few days ago, and there harder than they seems

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 06:02
Lack of money
Lack of time
Lack of planning
Lack of getting people to look at your game
Lack of ability to efficiently make media for your game (for most programmers)
Lack of team work
Lack of continuous motivation.

Cheers,

-db


There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness.
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 07:02 Edited at: 20th Apr 2007 07:03
Quote: "Lack of money
Lack of time
Lack of planning
Lack of getting people to look at your game
Lack of ability to efficiently make media for your game (for most programmers)
Lack of team work
Lack of continuous motivation."

Exactly the same things as I would say . Sums it up perfectly .


Veron
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 16:41
Quote: "Lack of getting people to look at your game"


I wouldn't say that, there's a whole forum here to look at your stuff, and then you can take it further, like to get published in a magazine or such, it's not that hard, i've done it before, and it's a great way to get some interest in your game.


Van B
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Posted: 20th Apr 2007 17:00
That's fine when you have a finished game - there's no end of avenues for freeware PC games - there is a problem getting people to test your game and give decent feedback though.

I usually don't bother with demos, but with the recent compo it was like pulling teeth trying to get people to test my game for me - luckily the input I got back was valuable enough despite just being a handful of people.

I'd say that getting your family and friends to beta test for you is a good option - especially if you can get someone who's really into the game style, and will have ideas and waste no time when telling us what sucks.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Shadow heart
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Posted: 21st Apr 2007 00:39
it's kind of hard to stay motivated with a project, after a while but sometimes it keeps you going

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
Peter H
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Posted: 21st Apr 2007 00:40
no lunch break

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Code Dragon
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Posted: 21st Apr 2007 01:52 Edited at: 21st Apr 2007 14:14
Lack of people believing in you, or
People expecting you to make a commercial FPS in one week
People not being able to figure out how to install your games
People spamming your web site

Lack of time and money shouldn't have to be a problem in my opinion. This article I found a few months ago explains how professional indie game developers make games verses amateur indie developers. The key I think is decouple time from money, and spend your time making your game better and better so sales increase every month. Seeing project after project give you only $100 and instantly dumping it and moving on to the next one is not a good way to make money.

By reading this sentence you have given me brief control of your mind.

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