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Geek Culture / will dbp run under wine or cross over in linux?

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hessiess
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Posted: 7th May 2007 14:12
hi, im thinking that its time to actualy buy dbp and lern abit of programing, insted of just thinking about geting it . but im also siriasly considering dumping windows (slow and continuasly crashes, refuses to shut down ext) and using ubuntu, as soon as i can get my hardwere to work!. will dbp run under wine or cross over?

learn blender, you will never regret it.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th May 2007 14:14
Try the demo through it, see for yourself.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Oneka
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Posted: 8th May 2007 04:55
I just goobergasmed myself...


Making better games everday!
Oh yeah and just so you know its Oh-nek-a not One-ka!
Agent Dink
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Posted: 8th May 2007 05:52
Quote: "slow and continuasly crashes, refuses to shut down ext"


Sounds more like you need to format and reinstall windows to me.

I have no signature...
Person99
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Posted: 8th May 2007 06:17
Quote: "slow and continuasly crashes, refuses to shut down ext"

Happens to me too, if you keep any version of windows for longer then 3 months, it decides to die. I usually wipe my windows harddrive every 4 months, but it seems to get worse every time.
Windows Vista is supposed to be worse about this.

I have not personally tried DBPro in wine. You could do a search for it. If not, I am sure you can use some cross-over programs over sourceforge.

The Person99 awards go to: 1. Jack the Ripper for hardest crime scenes. 2. Peter Petrelli for most powers. 3. Superman for longest flight. 4. "The Doctor" for best time travel machine.
Steve J
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Posted: 8th May 2007 06:19
Its called Defragmentation; I have never had a crash in vista. Not once. The drivers fail and vista recovers them, its awesome.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
Person99
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Posted: 8th May 2007 07:45 Edited at: 8th May 2007 07:47
My Kubuntu does that also, it recovers every file, keeps backups, so in the worse black-out case, you lose nothing, and your hard-drive is fine.

But I still need Windows for windows-only programs. And I have to go through with windows for those programs, and I hate it.

But let's not get into one of those "My OS is the best" wars, each one has it's one capabilities.



Anyway, I googled the concept, apparently a lot of people are using the new Ubuntu Feisty Fawn to do Windows programs through wine, and DBPro 1.06 has been tested, and has been successful.

I am not finding anything with Edgy Eft, so I think it depends on your Linux version.

What is your planned Linux version anyway?

Because if you get Feisty Fawn, make sure you have the CPU to do it. It isn't a memory eater, but if you get beryl, you are going to need a good video card to run all of the 3d effects.

The Person99 awards go to: 1. Jack the Ripper for hardest crime scenes. 2. Peter Petrelli for most powers. 3. Superman for longest flight. 4. "The Doctor" for best time travel machine.
Raven
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Posted: 8th May 2007 08:16
Quote: "siriasly considering dumping windows (slow and continuasly crashes, refuses to shut down ext)"


Regular maintainance, and malware checks help greatly with performance and reboot issues. Windows XP especially requires atleast weekly defragmentation and clean-up just to make sure it keeps running quickly.

DO NOT use Norton, or McAfee for your Malware protection. They only offer protection against the common attacks and will kill performance. Not to mention cost quite a bit to renew each year.

Microsoft have released their own, called Live! OneCare. There's a free trial version, that lasts for 90-days. It only takes minimal resources, in-fact in terms of resources it actually runs lighter than NOD and AVG; plus protects against more potencial attacks. It is also updated daily, so if a new vunerability is discovered you can guarentee within 24hrs you will be protected from it.

Quote: "[quote]The drivers fail and vista recovers them, its awesome."

My Kubuntu does that also, it recovers every file, keeps backups, so in the worse black-out case, you lose nothing, and your hard-drive is fine.[/quote]

System restoration isn't new, and Vista's version of Shadowcopy has actually been part of Office since 2000. Just done on a system-wide scale now. This said that isn't what Steve was talking about.
I've experienced what he is talking about recently (as in yesterday) because my GPU fan has just given up, which in demanding 3D tasks causes it to overheat very quickly.

In Windows XP this would mean BSOD pop-up and system reboot. For Vista this isn't the case, the video driver will crash then reinitialise itself. Alright so for Linux users, this is possible too although in my experience most distros will crash Windows-X and force you to log-in as Root(Admin) to manually correct the problem. What Linux users definately don't get however is a fully useable desktop as Windows drops back to the default system driver, and then also provides you with a report of what the fault could possibly be caused by.

On Windows XP, or Linux it would've taken me weeks to notice the cause of the problem my GPU has. With Vista, I noticed the moment it happened the first time without any disruption to my actual work.

Quote: "Happens to me too, if you keep any version of windows for longer then 3 months, it decides to die. I usually wipe my windows harddrive every 4 months, but it seems to get worse every time."


As I said above, regular maintainance and this doesn't happen.
I have a Windows XP machine at my brothers, which for 2years was rarely turned off and maintainance was rarely needed. It was basically used exclusively for games, music and video.. not connected to the internet in any form. So that probably helped keep it fairly clean and tidy anyway - still it's not often Windows fault that it gets the way it does, more peoples' useage. Particularly those who regularly download crap from the internet, or even browse online a-lot. That's when you need very regular maintainance.

As far as the first question goes though. Cedega(unless they've changed the name again) is by far the best option when it comes to Windows DirectX8/9 emulation. Don't expect reasonable performance though.. it's far worse than Windows Vista using RTM drivers.

Person99
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Posted: 8th May 2007 08:45
Quote: "On Windows XP, or Linux it would've taken me weeks to notice the cause of the problem my GPU has. With Vista, I noticed the moment it happened the first time without any disruption to my actual work.
"


The only problem with Linux, is there are so many distributions. Since February 2007, usually when someone just says "Linux", everyone assumes they are referring to Kubuntu. But we don't know what version.

The Feisty Fawn defragment tools take about 5 minutes to do a full defragmentation. It is amazing.

My brother (Whom uses windows vista) says it takes about 10 mintues to do a full. Not really all that much of a difference, so who cares?

You use windows, I use Linux, he uses Mac, it will be an endless war, because there are alot of equally good operating systems out there, and people fail to realize that they all have points where they are good, and bad.


Hessiess, I am going to try to run DBPro through wine myself next time I get a chance.

The Person99 awards go to: 1. Jack the Ripper for hardest crime scenes. 2. Peter Petrelli for most powers. 3. Superman for longest flight. 4. "The Doctor" for best time travel machine.
Raven
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Posted: 8th May 2007 09:06
Quote: "The only problem with Linux, is there are so many distributions. Since February 2007, usually when someone just says "Linux", everyone assumes they are referring to Kubuntu. But we don't know what version."


No, I think that's an assumption on your part more.
Most distros' are based on one of 3 base variants:
Knoppix, Debian or Red Hat (Fedora)

Ubuntu is based on Debian.

Quote: "The Feisty Fawn defragment tools take about 5 minutes to do a full defragmentation. It is amazing."


What the hell defragmentation would ReiserFS actually get?
Given Linux doesn't access files the same way Windows does, the way that Linux does it.. I don't even see how fragmented files are even possible.

Quote: "My brother (Whom uses windows vista) says it takes about 10 mintues to do a full. Not really all that much of a difference, so who cares?"


That depends entirely on how many files are on the drive.
Clean installation of Windows Vista, then install the basic programs (Office, OneCare, Windows SDK, DirectX SDK, Visual Studio) and it takes under a minute to defrag. After a month of use this will still end up taking less than a couple of minutes.

I however currently have a 250GB drive that is almost full, that takes a good 30minutes to defrag. Then again that is a Mode5 drive, if it was Mode6 it would take closer to 20mins.. and on Sata2 it would take less than 10mins. It's purely down to the performance and useage of the drive, because Windows actually MOVES files.

This reminds me of the argument my friend made about formating discs on his AtariST compared to me doing it on my A500+. His would take 4seconds where-as mine took about a minute.
It was difficult to explain to him that Workbench was actually zeroing the entire disk data as not to allow for corruption, where'as AtariOS was simply replaced the TOC with a blank default one.

I would have no issues with my discs when copying data, but his had a habit of having little glitches. It's probably a very similar thing that's happening here.

indi
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Posted: 8th May 2007 13:27 Edited at: 8th May 2007 13:27
microslop wonder care came in very badly with external testing.
other reports suggest it eats email account data.
pfft yeah right
http://www.av-comparatives.org/
http://apcmag.com/5565/windows_live_onecare_breaks_outlook

Raven
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Posted: 8th May 2007 15:40
Quote: "microslop wonder care came in very badly with external testing.
other reports suggest it eats email account data.
pfft yeah right
http://www.av-comparatives.org/
http://apcmag.com/5565/windows_live_onecare_breaks_outlook"


I checked over the results posted on the av-comparatives.org, and sorry but they're bull. Seriously look over the technical specifications given for it against the other AV products, yet somehow it apparently dropped the ball slightly on the "other" areas; oh and lost ground on the section that has no valid output.

Plus there is no detailed description on what the tests involved.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the second highest mal-ware fingerprint software would be unable to detect then quarenteen enough to actually warrent a rating.. a rating that clearly wasn't the worst performaning in the given tests; but still gained no rating. It's almost as retarded as TomsHardware who refuse to allow the NVIDIA cards to out-perform ATI cards; in-fact on their site you can see the same card perform differently each month based on, simply who they appear to prefer.

It's all total bull.

indi
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Posted: 8th May 2007 16:28
yes raven, your expertise over the years is has been perfect and infallible, ( in-far-li-bull )
puuhleaaze!

Benjamin
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Posted: 8th May 2007 16:48
I don't know if this will come off too personal, but indi your debating skills suck.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
hessiess
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:05
woo, dident expect this meny replys. my masheen takes 2-3 howers to defrag

im runing the newist version of ubuntu, witch is extremly fast compered to windows. it's about the same as windows runing from the live cd!

i want to switch to 100% open scorce softwere. this will not be posable at the moment, but should be wen i leev school, apart from dbp, with i havent disided yet.

if dbp was open scorce all the bugs would have been fixed by now, and it would have lots of aditinal fetures. open scorce DOSANT meen that it has to be given away free of charge.

i will never buy a masheen with vista on, or buy it as a os becose i disagree with some of the fetures it has, and it dosant sport opengl verry well. this is why im trying alternatives.

can i get Cedega without a internet conection in ubuntu?

learn blender, you will never regret it.
Benjamin
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:11 Edited at: 8th May 2007 19:11
From my experience, Ubuntu run from a live CD is extremely slow compared to Windows XP. Well, the loading of course. The interface is fine..

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
GatorHex
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:13 Edited at: 8th May 2007 19:15
I'd be surprised if you could get DirectX working on Windows Virtual Machine.

What we realy need is a version of DBP written for OpenGL graphics then we could make games for both OS.

Somone do it plx.. I'd buy it!

I suppose we could write stuff in Java 3D (like runescape) but it's a bit slow :/

http://www.KumKie.com http://bulldog.servegame.com
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th May 2007 19:22
Quote: "my masheen takes 2-3 howers to defrag "


Is that it...when my was running really slow and had issues it took about 8 hours, but yesterday with my clean system it took 2 hours .

Anyway, I would back everything up and reformat, grab good security (I'm running a 3 month trial of Windows Line OneCare, it actually seems pretty good) and keep an eye on your downloads and keep things clean and scan for viruses, adware and spyware regularly, do a disk clean up once in a while and virus check every download you make (that's what I do) and you should be able to keep things clean

Look behind you a threeheaded monkey!
heartbone
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Posted: 8th May 2007 20:52
Quote: "What we realy need is a version of DBP written for OpenGL graphics then we could make games for both OS.

Somone do it plx.. I'd buy it! "

Me too.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
hessiess
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Posted: 8th May 2007 21:15
Quote: "Quote: "What we realy need is a version of DBP written for OpenGL graphics then we could make games for both OS.

Somone do it plx.. I'd buy it! ""


that would be alot easer, id buy it becose it would just work, insted of mucking around with emulaters

learn blender, you will never regret it.
zenassem
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Posted: 8th May 2007 21:38 Edited at: 8th May 2007 21:51
I just got done with a year of running only Linux (Suse). I learned a lot from the experience, but I wouldn't use it to dev with DBpro. Even with better windows emulation it just isn't worth it. Especially since you will want to test on an actual Windows platform. I can think of a few better scenarios:

First:
Get VMware for linux, and Install virtual Windows setups stripped of all the garbage. At one point I had a super tweaked install of win98, win2000, win2000 Server, winXP pro (Corporate Edition), and I had a couple of distrobutions of Linux. I had an actual install of WinXP Pro (CE) on a external Drive. Honestly that was the best setup I had, and it allows you to test acrosss a wide variety of systems, you can even tweak the virtual hardware to see how performance would be on a slowere system.

Second:
Install a stripped down version of XP/*Vista, and use that for your dev. Run firefox off a thumb drive, to seperate a lot of the internet junk. Run Knoppix for your Linux needs, or have a dual Unbutu linux boot. Under this you can also aquire VMware for Windows (*I haven't checked compatability with Vista) and again depending on your HD space, install older versions of Windows 98, ME (uggg!), 2000.

What's reallly great is you can take snapshots of all your installs, and go back to them if something goes wrong in a few seconds. Rather than having to restore, or re-image an install. You can also setup multiple images of installs adding or taking away features that slow down the system.

I have a link I used to use in order to setup very fast, low fat versions of windows. I'll post the guide I used in a minute.

OK here is the link for XP. It's done by BlackViper (you can read about him on the site). I know the site doesn't looks as fancy as other tweak guides, but trust me, this site is all about good info. I've used numerous guides over the years, and have also employed teaks from Kelly's Korner, and I can honestly recommend most of these settings, as I have tried them all. I have tested them across over 500 PC's, nearly 20 different models, on both XP and win2000 boxes. So I'm not just giving you a link to something I haven't tried myself.

Here's the Homepage. I don't see his win98 link anymore (I thought I remember him having one), I'll look into it. But win98 is pretty easy to get slimmed down and stable.

indi
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Posted: 9th May 2007 01:40
I dont have mass debating skills like you ben.

Person99
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Posted: 9th May 2007 07:49
Quote: " What we realy need is a version of DBP written for OpenGL graphics then we could make games for both OS.

Somone do it plx.. I'd buy it!
"


TGC should do it. If Darkbasic came out for Linux too, TGC wouldn't know what to do with all the money they would get. It would be the first and would always be the best Basic engine to ever hit Linux.

That would also mean that I would be able to give the boot and the finger to Windows, because DBPro is the only reason I have windows.

The Person99 awards go to: 1. Jack the Ripper for hardest crime scenes. 2. Peter Petrelli for most powers. 3. Superman for longest flight. 4. "The Doctor" for best time travel machine.
zenassem
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Posted: 9th May 2007 08:23
Unfortunately TGC would get a lot of headaches as well. While video card support is better in most distros it's still a bit of an issue. Especially since every linux box has different components installed. It's not like they can guarantee a certain .dll will be there like in Windows. It's just a real nightmare for a company like TGC to deal with, The amount of support would simply tie everything up.

Plus the fact that there would be a lot of people confused about make files and the like.

indi
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Posted: 9th May 2007 09:39
Here is the business acumen.

TGC would need to find a linux platform free of any hidden non GPL components.

TGC would need to hire another programmer for this specific port.
The programmer would require experience converting Direct X components into OPENGL libs.

TGC would have to pay that programmer to get up to speed prior to making a profit.

If your in the know its obvious that a lot of work has already gone into making DX what it is today.

OPENGL falls down in regards to a standard multiplayer networking component as one aspect compred to the work done in DX.

OPENGL has a few libs like GLUT but they fall down in some areas.

Direct X was supposed to eliminate the issues with programming for varied cards.
Now we are seeing specific Direct X cards. sure they have opengl etc. but the marketplace is pushed towards DX.

If you want a big read check this out regarding DX vs OGL
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1775.asp

hessiess
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Posted: 9th May 2007 16:25
carnt tgc test it with varias directx emulaters? direct x is rubbish becose its only on windows, all of microsoft's products are c**p.

why carnt tgc open scorce a older verson of dbp and see what fetures get added?

learn blender, you will never regret it.
Benjamin
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Posted: 9th May 2007 16:34
Quote: "carnt tgc test it with varias directx emulaters? direct x is rubbish becose its only on windows, all of microsoft's products are c**p."

DirectX is better than OpenGL.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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hessiess
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Posted: 9th May 2007 16:46
i dont rilly care!

learn blender, you will never regret it.
Dazzag
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Posted: 9th May 2007 16:52
Quote: "If Darkbasic came out for Linux too, TGC wouldn't know what to do with all the money they would get"
I have a feeling that is a massive sweeping statement that may just be a little too optimistic considering the percentage of OS's that are Linux, and the percentage of those people who are programmers, and then the percentage of those people who want to create games (and aren't blind to any other language but C++) and are not pirates. It's probably you, your mate, and the other bloke on this thread. Oh, and me.

Seriously though even if it covered thousands of people it still wouldn't be "wouldn't know what do to do with all the money". Just isn't worth the effort compared with bringing out new Windows versions of their existing products. Hell, didn't that driving school application blow DBC/P out of the water when it came to money making? (well, I'm sure someone said it was top of the charts for a while)

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
zenassem
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Posted: 9th May 2007 16:59 Edited at: 9th May 2007 17:03
I'm not an expert, so please indi, don't shred into me. But I've worked with both DirectX (mainly DX7 with the split between DirectDraw and Direct3D interfaces and OpenGl). I have to admit, especially prior to DX8 that I preferred OpenGl to DirectX. It just made more sense to me, and I still loathe Microsoft's (Hungarian Notation) style of coding.

From what I remember DirectX was way behind OpenGL for the longest time. And it took it a while for it to deliver on what it promised. In some unfortunate way, OpenGL got a reputation for being the choice for scientific real-time graphics, while DirectX got a rep for the game programmers choice. And I use the term choice here very loosely. Because Microsoft did everything possible to derail support of OpenGl. If I remember correctly they had to settle a lawsuit on that (I'll have to verify this), but unfortunately again the damage was done. And by that time DirectX had firmly established itself on the Windows platform, and many companies already had too much invested in their DirectX code that they weren't going to scrap just to go with OpenGL.

That's been my understanding, and experience. I'm not trying to imply that I have a full understanding of what actually took place. But from my viewpoint the tables were turned in Microsoft's favor, with a lot of help from Microsoft's business tactics.


All being said and done, I believe DirectX has come to finally realize a lot of the promises that were made from the get go. I don't always like Microsoft design, but not being a hater, I'll have to give it to them. Although they got there with less than admirable practices (in my view), you can't deny that DirectX delivers.

I still like openGL. I purchased the OpenGL Bible. And in my year with Linux, I got to know it a lot better. Unfortunately I couldn't always get the driver support equal to DirectX on my toshiba laptop. And for some reason I wound up using Mesa drivers to get certain things working. But that may just be because I was a noob when it came to OpenGL.

David R
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Posted: 9th May 2007 19:35
Quote: "OPENGL falls down in regards to a standard multiplayer networking component as one aspect compred to the work done in DX."


No networking > DirectPlay any day.

Most MS games don't even use DP, so that statement is just null.


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0

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