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Geek Culture / Wanting to Build a Robot

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dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 03:52
Hey all, as a little youngin, I've always wanted to make my own robot (Short Circuit was always my favorite movie). Well, I decided to get some info on what I need to start making my own robot. I wanted to be able to program it, and piece it together, but I'm not sure where to even begin to start (). So, I looked on some websites that were supposed to get me started, but I'm not sure what they are even talking about. hehe. My knowledge of technology (like processors and stuff) is very vague. So, I would appreciate if some one would be able to help me out with links, or even suggesting parts/tools for a first time builder.

Thanks for your time everyone.
H4ck1d
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 04:11 Edited at: 10th Jun 2007 04:14
I'd recommend taking a look at the BOE Bot. It's a kit for building a robot based on the BASIC stamp. It includes a base, motors, wheels, sensors, and everything else you need to build a robot. I believe it also comes with some type of instructional book, although I'm not sure.

[edit] If you're interested, there's also other kits availiable here which are also based on the BASIC stamp, and possibly cheaper. None of the kits are exactly light on the wallet, but they're all quality.

Gamedesign er20
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 06:03
Another real simple Robot kit is the Lego Mindstorms NXT. It comes with it's own programming language that is really simple, and if you're more experienced, they offer bunch of other languages to use. It also comes with some tutorials to get you started on building humanoid robots, and vehicle robots. I deffinatly reccomend it for beginners.

This is where my signature would be If I had one.
dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 06:16
Quote: "Another real simple Robot kit is the Lego Mindstorms NXT"

Yea, I've been looking at it for a while, but was afraid on how much learning I'd do about actually building the robot. Since I've never used a soldering iron my whole life, wanted to learn the ways of the circuit board.

Quote: "I'd recommend taking a look at the BOE Bot. "


That looks very cool. I donno, if I'm able to, I might buy it. Though, not owning a Credit Card (under 18 and without a job atm), it will be hard. I donno. I'll see what others have to say.

Thanks so far guys.
H4ck1d
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 06:48
Well I've got a couple other suggestions if you're interested (I've done a lot of research, as I was very interested in robots at one point).

One idea, the roomba vacuums have become a very popular platform for hacking/building a robot base. I'm sure you'll find plenty about it on google. I believe roomba may have even released a version specifically for robotics. So check that out if you're interested.

Second of all, not sure how useful this is, but check out Hackaday's Robot Hacks. It might not be specific enough, but you should be able to get a lot of ideas/info from the sites listed. Make sure to check all pages, as there are multiple pages.

That's all that I can think of atm. If I were you I'd check out my local electronics shop like radioshack for microcontrollers. That's what you're really after. Unless you've got a spare laptop handy, your robot's brains are going to be a microcontroller, so look those up. The rest - the motors, the chasis, the sensors - are all much easier.

Those are my tips. Hope they helped you a little!

-H4ck1d

Raven
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 06:48
Maplin or Tandy (Radio Shack) usually have kits too, plus there's Lego Mindstorms; which is fairly cool as a "my first robot" kit.

dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 09:55 Edited at: 10th Jun 2007 09:57
Quote: "plus there's Lego Mindstorms"


So, it seems like the Lego's kit would be a great starter? Will it help with me learning how to piece together a robot? I know how to program (DBP,PHP, which isn't that difficult, but still).

I guess really what I'm after is learning the electronic side, along with the a small portion of programming that electronic. Of course, I'd still have to learn a programming language (I believe from my research thus far), but I'm willing to learn it.

Quote: "One idea, the roomba vacuums have become a very popular platform for hacking/building a robot base. I'm sure you'll find plenty about it on google. I believe roomba may have even released a version specifically for robotics. So check that out if you're interested."

That sounds wierd... I'll have to check it out.

Quote: "your robot's brains are going to be a microcontroller"


Eh, still looking this up.

Quote: "Second of all, not sure how useful this is, but check out Hackaday's Robot Hacks. It might not be specific enough, but you should be able to get a lot of ideas/info from the sites listed. Make sure to check all pages, as there are multiple pages."


That's a great website!


Edit: Would this be something I would need? Or can use to learn? It seems like it, but I would like some input.

http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/products/basicstamps/more_basic_stamps.asp
indi
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 10:55
Didnt Lee build the language for lego mindstorms, our DBP father.

PowerSoft
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 13:21
Indeed he did Indi,

Quote: "Europress contracted me out to work for Lego for a year or so where I joined a team to write the programming language for the ' Lego Mindstorms' series. After that, I decided not to return to honest employment and go self-employed to see what would happen."


http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=newsletter_issue_2




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sp3ng
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 14:08
i collected the Real Robots magazine, very useful and gave you a peice every month to add to the robot, i think you can order the magazines of the net (back issues obviously)
this is a pic of the robot

each part of the collection added more and more (part one being the robot, part 2 being the remote control, part 3 being customisation (which i didnt do) and part 4 being voice-recognition control!)
IanG
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 19:49
then it went further to a littler robot which ive also got, never really used though

as to robots in general, a simple one can be built round a pic microchip, essentially what a basic stamp is but it allows more flexibility, microchip,http://www.microchip.com, sell a small programmer for about £30 from what i remember, only snag is is that you have to write it in assembly which can be a bit of a pain if you've never touched asm before. But pics are great, fantastic for tonnes of stuff, im using one on a balloon project, but they are also used in small robots. Generally larger robots use 32bit processors, pics are 8bit, but you don't need that much for a small robot


amd athlon xp 2600+,1280mb,FX 5200 128mb,200gb & 120gb,xp pro sp2
dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 20:12
Quote: "Indeed he did Indi,


Quote: "Europress contracted me out to work for Lego for a year or so where I joined a team to write the programming language for the ' Lego Mindstorms' series. After that, I decided not to return to honest employment and go self-employed to see what would happen."

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=newsletter_issue_2"


That makes me think entirely different of that kit now... Hmm. I'll look into it more.

Quote: "each part of the collection added more and more (part one being the robot, part 2 being the remote control, part 3 being customisation (which i didnt do) and part 4 being voice-recognition control!) "


Wow, that's kind of cool.

Quote: "as to robots in general, a simple one can be built round a pic microchip, essentially what a basic stamp is but it allows more flexibility, microchip"


That looks cool. So, the price would be ABOUT $60 (USD)? Or am I extremely confused
zzz
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 20:16
I bought the mindstorm 1.5 when it was fairly new, I think I was about 10 years old back then. The kit was very simple to use and I had built a working robot that could detect walls after just a couple of hours.

Quote: "Didnt Lee build the language for lego mindstorms, our DBP father."

He sure did a good job! as always

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 20:32
If you're looking at working with the electronics side of building a robot, Lego Mindstorms is probably not your best option. You probably don't need a soldering iron, for one thing

Three Score
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 20:38
lol..one of my friends wanted to build a robot...he was gonna buy some 16bit chip, asked me to program it for him....then he graduated

Open86 --My Emulator (now with it's first super alpha release
I'm addicted to placebo's...I would quit but it wouldn't mean anything! lol
dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 20:41
Quote: "Lego Mindstorms is probably not your best option. You probably don't need a soldering iron, for one thing"


Yea. I forgot about that need. . Hehe. I'm soo confused on what I should do.... Thanks for the help, you guys are clearing a bit up for me.
Ankillito
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 21:09 Edited at: 10th Jun 2007 21:10
NOT MINDSTORMS!!!!

The language isn't a language, it's a pictorial programmer for children. You want something more universal than legos...

While in L.A. yesterday, I went into a Fry's electronic store, (where I saw several TGC products, including DBP) I asked one of the workers where I could find robotics. He showed me to the NXT, but didn't mention that, on the same aisle that I asked him on, they had true robotics parts. They were all made by Twin Industries, and only compatible with each other. However, it's programed through the USB port with PBasic. I doubt it's the best option, and it sure is not cheap, but it's a place to start.



hmm, I tried to get a link, and couldn't find the products I saw in Fry's.

Anyways, you want something expandable and customizable, not a kit to make one robot that they already designed...

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 21:45
Quote: "Anyways, you want something expandable and customizable, not a kit to make one robot that they already designed..."


Yea, that's what I was thinking.

Quote: "The language isn't a language, it's a pictorial programmer for children. You want something more universal than legos..."


I pretty much JUST looked at the "programming language" thing. You're right. It's retarded.

I'm not sure where the nearest Fry's is from here, but I know a few in Oregon. I'll take a look there when I get a chance.
Ankillito
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 23:28
I'm mildly afraid to venture into the world of robotics. If you want to add a little more code, you have to add a little more hardware for a lot of money. It seems like so much fun, I just don't think it's practical for me right now. Too bad... I wanted to make a robot to put on my roof that holds the water hose. That way, I could use my computer's Joystick in my room to spray my guests. They'd have no way of knowing it was me, since I'd be able to meet them at the door...

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
Zappo
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 23:47
Quote: "as to robots in general, a simple one can be built round a pic microchip, essentially what a basic stamp is but it allows more flexibility, microchip,http://www.microchip.com, sell a small programmer for about £30 from what i remember, only snag is is that you have to write it in assembly which can be a bit of a pain if you've never touched asm before."

I have been programming PICs for quite a few years now, including those inside smart cards. I used to love making keyfob sized electronic games using 2 line 16 character LCD displays or LEDs.
If you are serious about learning about the electronics side of robotics then its a very good step. You don't have to program them in assembler either. I would recommend PIC Basic which is very simple and powerful. The Pro version (if you can afford it) is excellent. I am sure there is a free C compiler for it too if you wanted to go down that route, which is a little more complex than Basic but will compile into smaller code if written properly.
You can buy premade prototyping boards too if you look around which have all of the basic components on to do all sorts of things which might make life easier, e.g. an LCD display and various analogue and digital inputs and outputs.
dab
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Posted: 10th Jun 2007 23:48
lol. It couldn't be that bad to upgrade a robot. Could it? I donno, as I still don't know anything but the bare basics of robots...

Quote: " wanted to make a robot to put on my roof that holds the water hose. That way, I could use my computer's Joystick in my room to spray my guests. They'd have no way of knowing it was me, since I'd be able to meet them at the door..."

lol. That's evil.
Ankillito
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 00:35
Muh - Ha - Ha.

That was supposed to be an evil laugh, I just can't type very evil-like.

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
H4ck1d
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 00:37 Edited at: 11th Jun 2007 00:45
Okay, I found one more thing that might help you - Jameco Robotics store. Unfortunately, you've still got the problem with no credit card, but maybe your parents could help? I looked in the robot kits section, and it looked very promising, so give that a look.

Quote: "Would this be something I would need? Or can use to learn? It seems like it, but I would like some input"


Yes, the basic stamp is one of the more popular microcontrollers. It's included in the BOE bot kit.

[edit]
Quote: "The language isn't a language, it's a pictorial programmer for children. You want something more universal than legos..."


Actually, there are some alternatives to the 'official' one, such as NQC (not quite C), which uses some different firmware. It is worth looking into.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 00:43
I thought the design on the front wheel of the Cybot was terrible. It kept snapping no matter what I did, which was the reason I gave up on it.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Ankillito
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 02:33
I was just at Radio Shack getting some solder, and I saw an awesome robotics kit. Here's the link:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2117994&cp=&sr=1&origkw=Basic+Stamp&kw=basic+stamp&parentPage=search

It's still expensive ($80), but the similar products I've seen on this board have been over $130! I'm too busy to buy it now, but it's on my wish list!!

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
dab
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 06:39
http://www.robotstore.com/store/product.asp?pid=778&catid=1555

That BOE Bot looks pretty much like a good idea, but there's no soldering involved which kind of bums me out.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2117994&cp=&sr=1&origkw=Basic+Stamp&kw=basic+stamp&parentPage=search

This looks great for learning about how the microcontroller works itself, but again, no soldering.

Wow, thanks for all the help so far guys! Keep it up.
Ankillito
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 06:54 Edited at: 11th Jun 2007 06:57
Quote: "but again, no soldering."


Hmm... That doesn't seem to subtract from it to me. I'm pretty sure that, with this kit, you can add on servo motors and do anything you want. What do you want to solder anyway?

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
dab
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 07:02
I guess I just want the experience. I'm really just wanting to learn as much as I can without spending a heap load on it. So an all in one little kit with everything I'd need is sort of what I'm looking for. Of course, you don't always get what you want. So I'll have to accept a kit, and start learning. But yea.
Ankillito
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 09:03
I think that the board that comes with it is a prototyping board. It allows you to connect different parts in different ways without soldering, which reduced the cost because you can reuse parts. I guess soldering's good once you have a robot that you want to keep the way it is and not change it any more...

Besides soldering is easy. I soldered for the first time today and had no trouble at all!

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
dab
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 16:31
Quote: "I think that the board that comes with it is a prototyping board. It allows you to connect different parts in different ways without soldering, which reduced the cost because you can reuse parts. I guess soldering's good once you have a robot that you want to keep the way it is and not change it any more..."


Hmm. True. So which one do you suggest?
zenassem
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 17:18 Edited at: 11th Jun 2007 18:08
I didn't read every post, so sorry if this has already been suggested.

I have built a few robots myself. I would honestly recommend staying away from the simple "put-together'kits (except for Lego Mindstorms), as they offer little reward and don't have the open-endedness to expand with you. I'll Edit some links in.

NOTE!
At least with LegoMindstorms, you can download hacked firmware and develop in Java or Not Quite C when you are ready. And you'll save money on base materials, and won't have to cut any metal, plastic, plexi-glass, or wood. Though the intial investment may be out of your range. Honestly for me to have enough flexibility to build at the size and complexity I wanted, I invested nearly $3,000.00 in Lego Technic Parts/sets, RCX's, Sensors, Pneumatics, motors, compressors, Chain links, gears, wheel sets, beams, pins etc...
Not that you need that much, but I wanted real-size bots. Of course you can also use the lego bricks/beams just to build a prototype frame for actual electronic robotic projects. That's more of what I do today. I have a pic somewhere of my Compaq Presario Laptop Bot, supported on a Lego Platform and some hacked lego sensors/multiplexors. I'll try to find it.

This was my proto-typing soldering station (some Lego Mindstorms books off to the right. I'll have to take a pic, of my entire lego kit today. You can see my Parallax board on top of the gray assorted electronics, & screws/nuts organizer. Not sure why my regulated power-supply is not in the pic.



QuickLink to FloppyTheRobot

FIRST!!!... FIND A ROBOTICS ENTHUSIASTS CLUB IN YOUR AREA.
(If you are allowed.)
-These people will be your best source, for getting the right stuff, and the correct knowledge better than any book. Surrounding yourself with people with a higher level of skill, and bank account, will allow you to see where you can take this. You can get hands on experience with cool systems, before you can afford it yourself. Plus, most clubs I have been to are very eager to help you get going with your projects. I'm not sure of your age, so if under 18, just makes sure it's alrigth with your parents and/or perhaps they can attend with you to make sure the club is on the up and up. Can't really be too careful these days.


Micro-Controllers (MC's) - The Brains!!!
Besides Lego, I think the best place to start is learning to program Micro-Controllers. And the best start for that has to be Parallax. In fact, RadioShack even sells them now. For a better selection and packages order from Parallax themselves or find a quality electronics distributor/retailer near you.

Parallax's offers a wide variety of it's Basic Stamps MC's incuding numerous variations on the Basic Stamp 2. If you are serious about designing programmable bots, with AI, sensors, this is the place to begin. After you get your feet wet with Basic Stamps, you can look into PIC controllers, and more advanced embedded systems programming.

Basic Stamp programing language, is well ummm, is BASIC... very easy to get into, and if you can understand some very simple DarkBasic commands you'll be on your way. I would reccomend getting the a decent robotics starter-kit that includes "The Board Of education, the softare, cables, book, and dev breadboard. If you can go for the BS2EX and get the one that allows you to mount and dismount it. The integrated one is ok, but you don't want to be tied the prototype board forever. So it makes more sense to have a removable micro-controller chip. So that's your Brains.

It's Alive... But Now Needs Drive!!!
As far as motors. The easiest way to get started is to use servo motors from RC cars, boats, planes. Most servo motors have a notch on them to prevent them from continuosly turning 360 deg. It's not hard to clip the notch of and modify them to act as a drive motor. The signal processing is also fairly simple. It offers a balnce between speed, and torque. Eventually you'll move up to DC motors, and bigger Power supplies.

NOTE!!!
If you are on a budget and don't want to spend $$$$ on expensive servo's, you can go thorugh peoples trash or garage sales Thrift Shops and pull motors out of many items; including but not limited to, Cassette/CD players, Floppy drives, VCR's etc... There is plenty documentaton on the web, to hack these motors into your projects. Very cost effective!!!!


My Bot "Isn't Smarter Than A Fifth Grader!"
-PIC MC's and Old Intel Laptops to the rescue!

After getting some knowledge in building smaller servo bots, you can move up to PIC MicroControllers, and better drive systems. I've also found that older laptops are quite cheap, and serve as the brains for your bots. At that point you will want to learn about Programming signals to ports such as LPT1, Serial/com, and possibly USB. After gaining some more education, you'll want to be able to communicate with your bot, and even update it's programming wirelessly. There are plenty of integrated Wifi or blue tooth solutions.

I'll try to add some references of links, Resources, Tutorials, & books below.

From Crawling to Walking
As you gain more experience you'll want to study different drive (bipeds, Killoff's platform (360 degree driving mechanism), multi-legged syncing, various steering, track driven, Gearing, Climbing and balancing etc...) mechanisms.

Welcome Mini-Me!
The "creme de la creme" are (COG's) Center Of Gravity Shifting Bi-peds or humanoids. You can spend a lot of time in this area. As well as Arms/grippers, visual & other sensors, voice recognition, GPS and pathfinding algorithms, neural networks, creating appendages with X many dimensions of independent movement/control.

Just try to tackle each subsystem, starting simple and working up.



Good luck, and let me know if I can help you further.

sincerely,
~zenassem

Links/Reference
Home Of Parallax
Parallax Robotics Page
Seattle Robotics.org Modifying A servo Motor
Floppy The Robot Page

zzz
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 20:02
This kit is quite expensive, but it is the cutest robot I´ve ever seen:
http://www.plen.jp


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Ankillito
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Posted: 11th Jun 2007 21:10
Impressive! I loved the skate boarding!

However, it's not quite a design-your-own-bot type thing...

@zenassem: Wow! Thanks for the info. A robot hobby club? I live in a relatively small town that's mostly a bunch of hicks, so I don't know if we have one, but I shall check into it!

"There will always be evil, for, without evil, the good shall lose their virtue."
dab
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Posted: 12th Jun 2007 03:47
Quote: "@zenassem: Wow! Thanks for the info. A robot hobby club? I live in a relatively small town that's mostly a bunch of hicks, so I don't know if we have one, but I shall check into it!"


Seriously, that's WORD FOR WORD what I was going to say... That's really scary actually.

zenassem... Wow. Thanks for all that info. I shall take what you've told me... And Research some more.

From the websites you showed, this kit looks kind of cool,
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28118

Considering I know VB.net

Or is that not what you wer talking about on the first point?
(
Quote: "Micro-Controllers (MC's) - The Brains!!!"
)
zenassem
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Posted: 12th Jun 2007 09:59
@dabip,

Quote: "From the websites you showed, this kit looks kind of cool,
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28118"


Yep, that's the type of kit I was suggesting. Simply, it will offer you more options. As you grow in experience and components, you can use that Micro-controller and the parts to build numerous robots. It's more versatile, than simpler robot kits, that turn out to be more-or-less assembled toys sitting on your shelf. You'll also learn more with the type of kit you posted, and you'll be able to program and reprogram it to do what you want. It's not as limiting as say a solo or dual function "toy bot" like a line tracer.

I still have the first BASIC stamp I purchased. It can be used in an infinite number of electronics projects. Basically a micro-controller is a mini-computer. I've had stamps act as a controller for an LCD display, timers, AI, communications... It just adds another level to what you will be able to do.

Didn't realize the programming experience you have. Since you are already familiar with vb.net, this MC will suit you well. It will offer years of exploration. It's really unbelieveable what you can do with these micro-controllers.

Add to it the fact that you can program it wirelessly (blue-tooth)or via serial/USB; developing, flashing, debuggind/testing, implementing becomes a no-brainer and it's fast. Better than having to purchase or make an EEPROM programmer right from the start.

So I'd say go for that kit. You won't regret it.

dab
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Posted: 12th Jun 2007 16:25
Alright. Thank you soo much guys for helping me out. . As soon as I can convince my parents to order for me (and as soon as I can afford it. ) I'll get that package. You'll bet I'll come back here for more advice. You've been very helpful everyone. Especially zenassem .

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