Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / A more constructive version of the C++ argument

Author
Message
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 25th May 2003 22:50
Link
If you wanna play rough, post in this one: http://www.darkbasicpro.com/apollo/view.php?t=10344&b=2. That thread has gotten too long and too focused on "C++ is vile" vs "Learn C++ or stop learning!".

Let's try the same argument, more open-ended:

What would you use C++ to create?

What would you use BASIC to create? Which version?

ASM?

Ada? [I like Ada, but there is only one good compiler for it, and no SDKs that I can find.]

C?

Lua?! [Just for obscurity's sake.]

FORTRAN?

Pascal?

Delphi?

No mention of Java is allowed. If you have to mention it, try to frame it as really bad C++.
Back to top
Profile PM
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 25th May 2003 23:10
Link
Personally I like Delphi as a language best, it is formal and strict, like C++, but is also far more readable IMO.

I would probably use C++ for a major project, such as an editing suite or a game (assuming DBP did not exist).

BASIC is very quick and easy, and therefore handy for mini-apps, like my 20-Line Code expander, but its lax syntax and the lack of features in most BASIC languages make it unsuitable for large scale projects.

ASM is nice if you are skilled at it and wish to create a very compact, effecient routine which you can plug into your code, but obviously, you would not write anything more than an algorithm using it.

As a language C is far more simplistic than C++, and far more readable. C++ is a rather messy bolt-on extension to C, I would rather that it had gone the whole hog and moved to C#, where everything is object orientated. This might be an unusual view considering that Delphi is basically an OOB set of extensions for Pascal, but I feel it just works better with Delphi.

I like the extensions for C++, they are certainly useful, but somehow the implementation is a little, well... confusing for newbies.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 26th May 2003 01:31
Link
there was no "C++ is vile" vs "Learn C++ or stop learning!" apart from what you put into the conversation.

myself and ian both pointed out that you have biased view on C++ and each language is there to be used based on how much you like it and what your attempting to achieve.

there is no such thing as a right or wrong language which is the entire basis behind the arugments you put forward ... it is just which is the best choice for YOU.
the most technically adept language on the planet is no good to the best programmer if he doesn't like the syntax or structure, and thats all it eventually comes down to.

personally i dislike Pascal and Delphi, this isn't to say they're bad language they're just no my cuppa tea - i think once you've learnt this lesson you can finally put the whole issue of C++ to rest.

i do apologise the the entire community for accidentially adding fuel to a fire i never knew was burning in the first place. i never ment for 8truths to get so out of hand. next time i think i'll look before i leap.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 26th May 2003 02:23
Link
OK, Raven . . . Did you miss the point of this post?

Back to top
Profile PM
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 26th May 2003 02:47
Link
no i just don't want you making a second post to spread what you think about C++ - and to be honest i think it is about time the original post was deleted as all you did was bash on the language regardless of what was said or put infront of you.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
IanM
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Sep 2002
Location: In my moon base
Posted: 26th May 2003 03:08
Link
Pascal : See delphi

Delphi : Currently learning it at the moment - *very* similar to C++ believe it or not - OK, the syntax is slightly different, but the feel is the same. I don't yet have a full opinion on it yet.

Fortran : I would probably recognise it if I saw it - that's about it.

Lua : Currently, I'm considering whether or not to use this as a scripting engine for DBPro (via TPC DLL of course ).

C : I would not use pure C again, unless I had too because of platform requirements - unfortunately I have to sometimes deal with 'legacy' systems.

Ada : No opinion - I've never used it.

ASM : I can read it, but I would never attempt to write any (again) - I just don't have that really 'low-level' mentality for assembly programming. And seeing as most compiler optimisers would produce tighter code than I ever could, I don't see the point.

Visual Basic : I have used VB as a front-end to databases, and for quick-and-dirty coding where a windows front-end was necessary. Also for interfacing to other microsoft products (spreadsheets etc).

Quick Basic/GW Basic : Haven't used them for years, and see no reason to take that particular step backwards The same goes for all other version of BASIC except for DB


OK, that's your list (except C++ - you know my opinion there ). Now here's mine:

COBOL : I have a lot of legacy code/data to deal with, so I write the data interface code in COBOL (Microfocus) and link it with C++ code that does the work. I don't do it all in COBOL, because (a) C++ processes the data faster than COBOL, (b) I've been spoilt COBOL doesn't have local variables or proper functions, so I really don't like coding it.

AWK : A Unix scripting language ideal for processing simple textual data - I use this a lot. I use it as a general purpose language for data extraction and processing for one-off or short-term jobs. However if I need to provide something more long-term, I'll revert to C++.

KSH and BASH : Again, a general purpose scripting environment - more of a job control language, but you can still do some pretty serious stuff using it. For simple non-processing jobs (asking yes/no questions, running jobs, checking job statuses etc).


Now a list of stuff I've used in the past, but don't use any more:

VBScript : Server-side asp on IIS. Stopped because it wasn't my job function any more.

Javascript : Client-side on IE/Netscape. Stopped for the same reason


Now, a list of stuff I've tried, but didn't like:

Perl - I just could *not* get the hang of it.

Java - unfortunate really, coz the company I work for is moving this way I suppose I'll end up picking this one up again.


There are probably one or two I've missed, but those are the main ones - I'm a bit of a jack-of-all-trades
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 26th May 2003 03:13
Link
macromedia flash has OOP and instances of objects similar to C++ usage. I really prefer it for working with lots of similar objects.

I studied C/C++ together so it got a bit confusing yet was still discernable as to which one was better when it came to managing data.

perl has no real OOP let alone functions. This is why PHP is king at the momo.

java is too slow for me when I attempted simple back buffer animation tests for multiple characters in games. Yes I studied java before DBC.

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
Back to top
Profile PM Email
the_winch
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Feb 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 26th May 2003 03:20
Link
I like delphi for general programs I think it's a good blend of ease of use against functionality.
Back to top
Profile PM Website
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 26th May 2003 08:43
Link
Raven -- I promise this will avoid the C++ bashing (or if it heads there, it won't be my fault). Like I said, if anyone wants get rough, go to the other post.

Ian -- thanks for mentioning the scripting languages. Totally forgot them.

JS is OK, but also prompts me to demand no one mention VBScript. Perl is good.

Back to top
Profile PM
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 26th May 2003 12:20
Link
no ones mentioned python yet

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
n3t3r453r
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Nov 2002
Location: Russia
Posted: 26th May 2003 12:52
Link
FORTRAN & COBOL - ... my childhood
C(PP) - my favorite language. Contains both low-level commands with hight-level style.
PASCAL (DELPHI) - don't like it at all. All PASCAL libs anyway were written on C.
JAVA & PERL & PHP - I hate interpretators!!!

I'd like to change the world, but God doesn't want to give me sources!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 26th May 2003 22:17
Link
"PASCAL (DELPHI) - don't like it at all. All PASCAL libs anyway were written on C."

Well the original pascal libs had to be written in SOMETHING. However, I believe that the newest delphi libs are written in pascal.

"but also prompts me to demand no one mention VBScript"

Aghhh! No! Get it away!

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 26th May 2003 22:28
Link
Quote: "
However, I believe that the newest delphi libs are written in pascal.
"


Yes, since ages- not only the newest.
In fact I don't remember any pascal libs that were written in C.

Ogres have layers.
Back to top
Profile PM
IanM
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Sep 2002
Location: In my moon base
Posted: 27th May 2003 02:28
Link
Ok, no more mentions of VBScript

Follow-up to the Delphi libraries - For C++Builder, exactly the opposite is the case. VCL is written in Delphi. The Borland C++ compiler actually understands and compilers Delphi code!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
doxxan
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Mar 2003
Location: Sweden
Posted: 27th May 2003 11:08
Link
Well, I've only ever used Basic and C/C++, and tried Asm and Java, so I don't have much to say, but...

Basic - Long gone. Wouldn't switch to a pure Basic language again.
Visual Basic - Is ok. For quick and dirty windows code, or maybe interface code for C/C++ apps.
C/C++ - I love C/C++. Ok, so you start screaming when there's something wrong at the specified line, and there's nothing there, then you notice your forgot a semicolon like, 20 lines up or so. But, it's fast and kinda easy. Usage, well, I use it to code my engine at the moment, and it's definatly suited for games. Won't say it's best, probably isn't nowadays, but I like it.
Asm - Small, fast, slick. Wouldn't dream of coding in it though :p.
Java - A budget clone of C/C++. Simply, don't like it :p.

"What is darkness? It doesn't exist where there's light, and without light, it's nothing..."
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Critters
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Apr 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th May 2003 11:47
Link
well i never

http://www.freewebs.com/jaxteam/jaxteamlogo.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/jaxteam/
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Martyn Pittuck
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th May 2003 12:06
Link
I have only ever used VB, BASIC on the Acorn and DB for apps, but i do a lot of web stuff.

PERL:

Love it, but i do not have the time to make anything worth mentioning. I made a Events Calendar with it for my work experience, and it was the first time i had used it. I learnt it and madethe program in 6 days which is not bad considering the world cup was on aty the time. So i camped in the cantine with a laptop for 2/3 hours every day

PHP:

I love it, quick, easy, fast. Everything is there from ini file phrasers to session magagement and database handling (One thing about perl is that there is not in-built database handlers (accept flat file ones)). I do all my work now in PHP, only thing is the long quest to find a decent editor ...

JAVASCRIPT:

You must be kidding, ok i use little bit of it. It comes in usefull for stats generation (Screen Res, OS etc.) and opening windows etc. but i only use it for what it was meant for, that is to allow more control over the browsing enviroment. Never pop-up boxes or mouse trails.

I have made the odd scroller for news tickers, but then again they add more useability too.

Ok thats my 2p

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 27th May 2003 12:51
Link
"The Borland C++ compiler actually understands and compilers Delphi code!"

Seriously !?

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 27th May 2003 14:46
Link
I haven't worked with Borland C++ so I don't know if it works with Delphi source but I know that it understands DCUs (Delphi Compiled Units) which are basically enhanced binary object files.

Ogres have layers.
Back to top
Profile PM
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 27th May 2003 15:57
Link
it accepts Fortran too Ian ... its a pretty cool compiler, only thing i don't like is the Microsoft support they have - even 6.5 need a good kickup the arse as far as Mircosoft Library Support goes.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
n3t3r453r
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Nov 2002
Location: Russia
Posted: 27th May 2003 16:02
Link
> In fact I don't remember any pascal libs that were written in C.
basic PASCAL&BASIC libs were written in C.

I'd like to change the world, but God doesn't want to give me sources!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
IanM
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Sep 2002
Location: In my moon base
Posted: 29th May 2003 17:40
Link
Rob: Yes, seriously.

If you use the install C++Builder with the VCL library sources you'll see that they are all native delphi code. Apparently, Borland wrote the VCL for Delphi, then instead of porting it for Builder, they instead updated the compiler so that future porting would not be necessary.

I don't know why they don't go the whole hog, and release a Borland Studio ... especially since they've decided to support .NET

n?????: Not true. See above Pascal is a complete language that is completely capable of compiling itself and creating any libraries that it might need.
Although Pascal was created after C, it was in fairly widespread use before C got outside of Bell labs, and so it is independant from C - Although it *can* make use of C libraries, the reverse is also true.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 29th May 2003 19:05
Link
So many people seem to think that Delphi is a kiddies playtoy and not a serious development environment. Sigh.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 29th May 2003 19:23 Edited at: 29th May 2003 19:27
Link
Quote: "
n?????: Not true. See above Pascal is a complete language that is completely capable of compiling itself and creating any libraries that it might need.
Although Pascal was created after C, it was in fairly widespread use before C got outside of Bell labs, and so it is independant from C - Although it *can* make use of C libraries, the reverse is also true.
"


Yep, IanM is absolutely right.

Borland released Object Pascal (Delphi) relatively late. And the first version(s) were.. well... not really thought out. I guess Object Pascal would have been more commonly used if Borland had focused on that a little more and a little earlier.

As for "Borland Studio", I guess that's on their list. Having talked to some Borland people on their forums, even a MacOS X version is considered.

Ogres have layers.
Back to top
Profile PM
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 29th May 2003 20:38
Link
Did you ever notice that Pascal always seems to teeter on the fringe of obscurity, and somehow managaes to to threaten to be a legit language? I remember using Pascal way back to program a b&w Mac in school, because they had it and FORTRAN for IIe. At least Pascal survived.

Is FORTRAN still around, not just used by a couple guys either attached to it or maintaining it for a company that just won't give up?

Who knows, maybe someone has tried to create the ultimate bastard: Visual FORTRAN. Surely MS would have by now-- they did Visual J++#.NET.

Back to top
Profile PM
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 29th May 2003 21:35
Link
Pascal is a nice language to use and code with and has professional, up to date RAD tools available for it, hence it is still used.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 30th May 2003 10:46
Link
i'd hardly say that Pascal is on the edge of anything, perhaps not the most popular language ... but it still has a userbase of several million. If thats obscurity then christ i wish FMTau Labs was pretty obscure too

Fortran is around still and is actually part of Intel's range of products.
There is another one they do which is also older than C but i forget what, and i'm too lazy to look it up

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Kale
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 30th May 2003 15:52
Link
Python is an amazing language with good OOP support but with one major drawback, its interpreted, not compiled in the normal sense. But i've used it lots and i like it.

I use PureBasic for all programming now, it converts all code to ASM then passes this file to FAsm for compilation, Very Fast, Very Small exe's! and yes big commercial apps are possible with it.

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD XP2100+, Geforce4Ti 4400, 512Mb DDR, Abit KX7, WinXP Home
Back to top
Profile PM Email
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 31st May 2003 07:34 Edited at: 31st May 2003 07:36
Link
Y'know, I've looked at PureBASIC and thought it had some potential. However, I think they need to find a role fore it.

Every IDE/language eventually has to find a niche.

Look at DarkBASIC. Perhaps the clearest and most intelligent form of niche marketing you'll see. It really does one thing, and does it well -- rapid development of 3D. If someone stuck a gun to my head and said, deliver a fully working 3D prog in 24 hours, DB is where I'd bet my life. Then they'd run it on a 486 and I'd be dead.

Granted, it's capable of more. But they never did anything silly, trying to extend it to consume every possible market.

That's where I'd fault PureBASIC. Great IDE/language, but no real sense of what the one thing is you should do with it.

Money rides if it ever does anything big, it will be for building CGIs (c'mon, it is fast enough to compete there).

I admit, I don't really see in a Windows API setup where it does anything better than another language (aside, maybe, from a speed boost for BASIC). Doesn't seem like a good drawing/games language. Takes longer to develop than VB.

BTW -- FORTRAN's still around? Anyone know what the newest IDE is for it? I saw an open source one about three years back that tried to bridge cosnole and Win32.

Back to top
Profile PM
Kale
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 1st Jun 2003 15:46
Link
>That's where I'd fault PureBASIC. Great IDE/language,
>but no real sense of what the one thing is you should do with it.

That to me is the form of a good language. multipul uses! I use it because its fast (it thrashes C/C++) and its versatile and anything can be done with it.

>Look at DarkBASIC. Perhaps the clearest and most intelligent
>form of niche marketing you'll see.

I have to agree on that. DBPro is filling a hole that has appeared, but i just wish they would drop the 'Pro' on the end. DBPro is DBv2.0 really, I felt let down when i bought DBPro on release, expecting it to be better. It really didn't do what it said on the box, and it still doesn't.

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD XP2100+, Geforce4Ti 4400, 512Mb DDR, Abit KX7, WinXP Home
Back to top
Profile PM Email
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 07:25
Link
Y'know, that sort of answers a question (about Db and DB Pro) that I had going in another post.

Back to top
Profile PM
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 20:10
Link
"I use it because its fast (it thrashes C/C++) "

It is the compiler not the language which affects speed.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
IanM
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Sep 2002
Location: In my moon base
Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 22:03
Link
I'm not going to get into another argument of 'my language is better/faster/easier/safer than yours' ... *bites tongue*
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Kale
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 23:26 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2003 23:26
Link
>It is the compiler not the language which affects speed.

the compiler is 'the language'.

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD XP2100+, Geforce4Ti 4400, 512Mb DDR, Abit KX7, WinXP Home
Back to top
Profile PM Email
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 4th Jun 2003 00:21
Link
OK, so whatever your opinion of compilers, languages, etc. we all agree PureBASIC is pretty damn fast for a BASIC, and an undermarketed one at that.

Keep it constructive.

Back to top
Profile PM
Rob K
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Sep 2002
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Jun 2003 00:25 Edited at: 4th Jun 2003 00:27
Link
"the compiler is 'the language'."

No it is not.

For Pascal I can use TurboPascal, Delphi or Kylix

For C++ I can use MS Visual C++, Borland C++ or GCC

For BASIC I can use VisualBASIC, PowerBASIC or QuickBASIC

The language is DIFFERENT from the compiler.

For some languages, there is only one compiler. But look at it like this, we might say DBPro is faster than Blitz. We would not say DBA code is faster than BB code.

True there are general aspects. C++ compilers generally produce better code than BASIC ones, but as you have shown, that is not always the case.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Kale
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Jun 2003 15:37
Link
>For BASIC I can use VisualBASIC, PowerBASIC or QuickBASIC
>The language is DIFFERENT from the compiler.

These are all different languages, you cannot compile a VisualBASIC source on a QuickBASIC compiler, unlike say, ansi C++ which has many compilers. Purebasic only has 1 compiler, so surely in this case the compiler is 'the language'. Its because the compiler is written so well.

I sort of see what you are getting at saying its the compiler that effects speed, i guess when you think about it thats logical, But its still a language the compiler accepts, and if a compiler is only written to accept 1 language, then they are joined. PureBasic Commands + PureBasic Compiler = PureBasic Language.

What the flame does not consume, consumes the flame.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD XP2100+, Geforce4Ti 4400, 512Mb DDR, Abit KX7, WinXP Home
Back to top
Profile PM Email
DarkSnake
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2003
Location:
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 18:32
Link
anything but f*cking pascal, that language is so crap that all the other languages point and laugh at it :p

btw c++ ownz j00

Back to top
Profile PM
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 10th Jun 2003 19:43 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 21:42
Link
'Bout how long would it take 2 pick up C/C++ and which is easiest (VisualC++,C)?

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 10:33
Link
Honest answer is that you don't "pick up" C++. "Pick up" sort of infers its like a local dialect.

Learning C++ is like learning Chinese from a guy with a thick accent and an unusual dialect and no desire to help you.

I have never toyed much with VC++, which I rather quickly dismissed as a fraudlent attempt to get people to associate with VB.

I use Watcom and Dev C++; I know, oldie and freebie.

C alone is decent to learn. If you plug at it non-stop, no more than a month or two.

C++ is a lifetime commitment (not entirely a joke, because even if you achieved full mastery, any new technology will inevitably lead to a new set of includes).

Learning C++ should only come after learning proper breathing techniques. This is my biggest mistake-- not trying C++ with some yoga-- since learning C++ mostly means learning to be cool while you dig through debugger info.

Back to top
Profile PM
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 15:52 Edited at: 11th Jun 2003 17:37
Link
So your sayin', C is easier, 'bout 2-3 months, while C++ could take years? Also, by "pick up" I mean learn, I don't expect 2 learn it in a couple o' weeks.

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 15:56
Link
Which free complier should I get (compliers run C and C++, right?)

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
IanM
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Sep 2002
Location: In my moon base
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 16:51
Link
Hmmm, you should be able to pick up the basics of either in under a month. At the lowest level, they are the same language.

For C++ -
The Dev-C++ compiler : http://www.bloodshed.net/
The best all-round book to get is probably the C++ Black Book published by Coriolis.

For C -
The LCC compiler : http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
I learnt from Teach Yourself C published by Osborne McGraw-Hill. It's still available from amazon. There are others, but I haven't read any of the newer ones.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
abloke
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2003
Location:
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 17:15
Link
Very interesting thread.(even if a lot of those that hate c++ aren't that 'knowledgable' about c++,that hate it so much).

I can't give an 'experienced' opinion on most of the other languages,as i really only know c/c++,apart from a couple of scripting languages like Lua,and Tcl.

mattman,if i was to be honest with you,you can pick up the basics for c,very quickly,if youv'e done a bit of programming before,but i do agree with the other posters opinion,C++ will take a fair ammount of time,before you find it should i say...'easy enough to work with'.

It doesn't hold your hand,in any way,like Visual Basic would,(i never really learnt VB,just messed with it a long time ago),it generally 'assumes' that you know what your doing.

The thing is with C++,is you really do have to have patience when your learning it,don't try to learn to much too fast.

It will take a long time to get a good grip on it,and a lot of dedication.This is where a lot of people give up on it,because it does take time to be able to program 'Reasonably well' using it.

But,saying that c++ isn't everybody's 'Cup Of Tea'.Some like it,some
can't get used to the syntax and its features etc.

For Proffesional Game-Dev,its well suited.Its the balance of speed and features combined,that make it more suitable than any other language.There's also more support and library's out there for games development than any other language.

Suitable for someone knew to programming,a 1 man band,wanting to make a game in his spare time after work? my advice would be to use one of the higher level tools,like Dark Basic,Blitz3D,A5-Game Studio,
Quest3D.

Because if you are knew,and don't already have a strong grip with c/c++,learning one of the Graphics API's(Direct3D,Open Gl),
at the same time,is going to be very difficult,before you start seeing results like you would do in an authoring tool.
This is where most new to c/c++ Direct3D/Open Gl give up.

Saying that,if your after a proffessional career in the Games industry,then learning c++ and both API's is the way to go.

Paul Thompson.

Back to top
Profile PM
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 17:37
Link
I'll look at thoses comliers, Ian. Thx! C and C++ are close in the syntex, correct? If so, should I try C, then move to C++? Thx for the helpful replies so far guys!!!

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 17:59
Link
I got a Complier!!! the "Bloodshed Dev" complier!!!

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
abloke
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Jun 2003
Location:
Posted: 11th Jun 2003 18:06
Link
C++ is basiclly a superset of C.adding Object Oriented Features.
C++ was originally going to be called 'C With Classes'.
So i'd recommend learning the basics of C,before moving on to learn the more advanced features of c++.

There's so many begginer books to pick up the basics with.
A good book i'd recomend after your past that stage is one called
'Effective c++'.
I'd recomend learning your tools enviroment,the build process,things like that...then move on to the language.

Back to top
Profile PM
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 12th Jun 2003 00:40 Edited at: 12th Jun 2003 00:45
Link
Just to make on fact correction -- Dev C++ (Bloodshed) is not a compiler. It is an IDE that calls Ming or GNU C++ compilers.

Probably others can be used, but those two are the ones always mentioned.

BTW -- Dev C++ is really the only good IDE for free. Open Watcom is OK. LCC is OK as a compiler, and there are a few BASIC to C progs for it, too. Borland's supposed to have a freebie on their website, but I hated the long registration for it and clicked back.

Back to top
Profile PM
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 12th Jun 2003 03:10
Link
Oh, thats why It was not working with the tutorials I used!!!

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
8truths
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 12th Jun 2003 08:29 Edited at: 12th Jun 2003 08:31
Link
The copy I downloaded had the GNU compiler built right in. Recently updated it, something like 4.9.2 or so. The 5.x versions are all still considered developmental, and not for everyday use.

How's that for confusion?

To simplify, the compiler is still separate. You could use notepad.exe and then run the compiler in console mode and still get results. The IDE just gives you a nice, relentless Bitchin' Betty to deal with.

Back to top
Profile PM
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-09-20 00:44:33
Your offset time is: 2024-09-20 00:44:33