Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / DB Forum productivity explosion!!!

Author
Message
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 21st Jun 2007 22:03
Not sure if anyone else shares the same feeling, but I feel as though the productivity around here has picked up exponentially. I would have assumed that it had to do with completion of University, given the complexity of some of the latest announcements, but I am getting the feeling that the High School wrap-up is also contributing. Not always being sure of the ages around here, (not that it matters), but I am really impressed.

I don't know exactly what the catalyst was, but I am getting the feeling we are all in for one heck of a summer. With the level of code from forum members really raising the bar. Even the ideas/ theories being brought up over the past few weeks all seem to be pointing to a maturing community (again not in age), but rather in solid programming/Dev principles.

Everyting, from (but not limited to)...
AI
Level/World Design
Scripting/plugins
Tool-Chains
Rendering, Physics
Moudular design, Flexible code, Dll's
Optimization
Modeling, animating, texturing, techniques and quality


Has anyone else noticed this sudden trend?

GatorHex
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Apr 2005
Location: Gunchester, UK
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 02:32 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2007 02:38
Maybe ppl are finishing skool, not doing revision for their exams, or working on our final year projects? I know I am, means I got no skool, and just gota research, code and write reports until mid September

Dr Manette
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Jan 2006
Location: BioFox Games hq
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 02:42
Well, besides the major projects (Geisha House, Pirates of Port Royal, ect) there is just more posters, more questions being asked/answered, and then more coding. And then there's school, which is virtually done for a few months. Productivity for the win!

I can't wait to unveil my team's big project, but alas, it will have to wait!

Jrock
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2006
Location: Riven
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 03:11
Quote: "I can't wait to unveil my team's big project, but alas, it will have to wait! "


If it ever gets finished

Practice makes perfect. But if nobody is perfect, why practice?
tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 04:52
Oh, I'm working for the day Seadome will be named along with Geisha House and PoPR...

But I never really checked these forums until Awakening. Always found these forums unpleasant. Changed a while back - or I learned to understand things - , so now I'm around all the time, lol.

Chily Dog
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Nov 2004
Location: U.S.A.
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 06:37
Its really just school. Perhaps productivity is just returning to normal after finals
MikeS
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 07:50
Yeah school is out, so I'm ready to do some work. I think DBP in general now finally has the resources(tutorials, plug-ins, etc.) to really provide for a great independent scene. I really have noticed the quality of W.I.P's for example going up year after year. Generally it seems that TGC hold their members for a long time, I know the DGDK really was the saving grace for keeping me around this long.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
Shadow heart
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2006
Location: US
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 09:14
yeha i have a seen a boom sort of around here.

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 11:21
Uni, nor school is out here yet...

And when it is, Uni gets 4 weeks (our Winter time here, Down Under), and School only gets 2

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
Shadow heart
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2006
Location: US
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 11:55
i got outta school two weeks ago.

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 12:03
Well, if productivity is going so well, who's for starting an MMORPG?

I'll start on the engine now.
Benjamin can do the multiplayer code.

Who wants to do the million and trillions of models and landscapes?


Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 12:27 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2007 12:28
Probably is the end of school, college and University for people - although I've got another week of exams and then I'm finished until September - so I might jump on the bandwagon and get working on something - although I plan to spend this time getting a job and trying to get some freelance work as a writer before skipping off to uni.

[edit]

If anyone really is going to start a big project, I'd be happy to help with 3D models (Not-animated)

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 12:51
Quote: "Well, if productivity is going so well, who's for starting an MMORPG?

I'll start on the engine now.
Benjamin can do the multiplayer code.

Who wants to do the million and trillions of models and landscapes? "


Another never-to-be-finished Fallout Production?

Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 12:56 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2007 12:57
@tha_rami - Exactly!

You know what Mr Seppuku, I'm starting to think a big project might be the way to go for me. I'll have a think about it tonight after work. I've been toying with the idea for a while and come to the conclusion that the strategy is to be a proactive manager. Someone has to take the bull by the horns and promote the game, head hunt the talent, and kick them up the arse all the time (with a steel toe capped and barbed size 12 boot). When they get bored, you have to hang them out to dry with the rest of the smelly washing, and find someone else to fill their boots.

Ok, slightly OTT, but you get my point. The biggest problem is media. Coding is the easy part. So any project needs a media manager who has the research, personnel and management skills to deal with the unpredictable array of artists in the community, and get the results required for the project. Hmmmmm ....

*The brain begins to tick over. The rusty cogs can be heard from space, despite there being no atmosphere to transfer the sound*


MikeB
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Apr 2007
Location: My Computer, Shropshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 16:07
I've had an awesome idea for a game.

"Land of the Undying" or something.

You play this undead person, you start off as a zombie with most of your flesh left, and then you end as a bleached white skeleton (the elite). I've worked out quite a lot, but I have no idea how to put them into practice .


Mike B

Call me Mike please
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 16:09
I don't think productivity has increased, just posting frequency.


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 17:34
Quote: "You know what Mr Seppuku, I'm starting to think a big project might be the way to go for me. I'll have a think about it tonight after work. I've been toying with the idea for a while and come to the conclusion that the strategy is to be a proactive manager. Someone has to take the bull by the horns and promote the game, head hunt the talent, and kick them up the arse all the time (with a steel toe capped and barbed size 12 boot). When they get bored, you have to hang them out to dry with the rest of the smelly washing, and find someone else to fill their boots"


Indeed, for a project to work, we need people in the right positions and them using their biggest strengths - so if we have a good project leader, let them go ahead and be it, my biggest strength is modelling, one of the reasons none of my projects have worked is because I am weak elsewhere. But it's been tried before, but hey all you can do is keep on trying with these big projects, I mean at least there's experience to be gained.

Unfortunately there are things that take up people's time, like I'll be going off to uni - so we'd really need plenty of people willing to work properly in each of the positions and the team leader would need to really know how to motivate - perhaps sub-leaders for different parts (I mean when I'm not modelling I'd still have the time to boss modellers around and motivate them)

It would require hard work and planning, but get a system working and learn from previous failures we could actually get something out of it. Give us a shout and I'll try to put input into the planning where possible for me if you go ahead with your ideas.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
MikeB
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Apr 2007
Location: My Computer, Shropshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 17:36
I'd level design , but that's about all I'm good at



Mike B

Call me Mike please
Zotoaster
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 17:39
Quote: "Scripting"


If that's refering to me, then it's not recent

Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 17:40
Quote: "Indeed, for a project to work, we need people in the right positions and them using their biggest strengths "

So, you want me in every position doing everything? Hmmm... sounds good...


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 17:50
Only if you have no life Cash then we don't mind, if you do, then maybe one or two, I mean no one here wants you to strain yourself too much.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 17:55
Okay never mind then


Come see the WIP!
Oolite
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2005
Location: Middle of the West
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 18:23
I found since i took cash's advice and started doing smaller 8-10 hour coding projects i feel more productive and i am getting quite a nice code library up and running and i have a few more models to my name.

I wouldn't mind being in a team, i like the athmosphere it creates when it works well, i could offer my modelling/sculpting/animating skills to the job.

We tried to plan a game in my class as a little side project, but my students are so damn lazy it never took off...


[Looking for work]
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 18:31
Indeed, but if people are willing to put their leg in and leaders learn from previous mistakes of other large projects and at the same time keep their workers motivated (I found one problem with working in teams and even on my own, is motivation) - of course if they're lazy students, replace them permanently or temporarily (Like until they can work again) if Fallout does wish to start something up - sub leaders would work - this would a position for someone like myself (For the media part) because I'd be at uni with a crappy laptop and unless I get time and also replace it I couldn't fill a proper modeller's position (although I'd give my input where possible)

Of course if not enough people have a keen interest, we should all take Cash's advice.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 19:07
@Oolite -
I am really, truly pleased that it's benefited you. I only wish more people understood that.

*******************************************************


@Everyone -
A team request in pure format will never, ever work. It's never, ever worked before, ever. A team request will only work if one person resumes all responsibility for the project and allows individual tasks to be completed by others.

Responsibility is not transferable. This is where every team request goes wrong. Every team request I've seen attempts to transfer responsibility for the project to individual members of the project.

Tasks are transferable. This is where Geisha House has gone right. Don't take it from me, take it from experience.


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 19:16
All right then, but it was an idea say the least - with ideas looming on how to make it work, but if what you say is completely true - then despite the nice idealistic thought of a community working together doing what they do best will not exist, so I guess its like asking for a society that functions completely and perfectly (Because it'll never happen no matter how good the ideas of the leader are). Unless anyone can convince me otherwise I will take your advice.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
heartbone
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 19:28
99,9-- threads and counting towards the big 100K!

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 23:28
Quote: "I am really, truly pleased that it's benefited you. I only wish more people understood that.
"


Yes, because if we don't conform to your view of project management and development, then we are not able to "understand" it either...


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
MikeS
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 00:04
[A bit offtopic]
The problem with team requests is that it isn't a good way to search for well, team members. You need to personally hunt down the people you want to work with, whether by e-mail, msn, etc. It's also a little bit more personal, and you can get a better feel for how you'll work together. Some people have amazing talent, but just cannot work in a team. Myself, I'm pretty well rounded and have the tools to do every major aspect of game design. Jack of all trades, master of none perhaps(although now I just focus on programming and a bit of 3D modeling).

The lack of motivation is sometimes caused by the return. Not all people are going to want to invest a ton of time and get nothing back. The finished product needs to either generate some sort of income, have a website so users can learn about the game, and get the name of the indi programmers out there. I've been part of many teams over the years. The first team I joined, I was part of the problem and I eventually lead to its collapse.

Only 1 project I know of that I worked as part of the team still actively exists, and that was a starwars mod which I did some sound effects and one track for. I eventually left due to time(school). It's all part of a learning process though. If I'm approached professionally and can work in a nice environment dedicated to games development, I'm more than willing to do that. I mean, that's what I expect one day, to be working for a software/game development company.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
Oolite
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2005
Location: Middle of the West
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 00:28
to be completely fair, certain things work best for certain people, this just got me out of a really tight spot and help relieve a lot of stress in my personal life, read the thread if you care.

May i just add, the minith tiras project. I don't like team requests as much as the next guy, but i find its nicer to work in a team. Both have there ups and downs but in my own personal experience, working in a team is much more fun (i'm not talking through the internet though).


[Looking for work]
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 01:05 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2007 01:07
Quote: "A team request will only work if one person resumes all responsibility for the project and allows individual tasks to be completed by others."


Defo agree with that. There has to be one dude at the top with the brass balls to ultimately make all the decisions. I do think you can delegate some responsibility to other people, but you still retain ultimate responsibility. So when/if those people start to let you down, you can't blame them. You've gotta have your fingers in that pie to and be able to get on with it in their absense.

I also don't think a true team with joint decisions is really feasible. Definitely have discussions, and share ideas, but I think whoever is at the center of the project has to be lead design too, and have the overall vision so there's always a clear goal. By that I mean, level designers will make their own levels, modellers will interpret the characters as they like, but the final decisions on gameplay, locations and story have to reside with the central team members vision.

@Seppuku Arts

Still thinking about the idea. The main problem I have is motivation/time really, so I've avoided trying to start a team as I don't want to let people down. It'd have to be the right formula, and the right people I think. You'd be on the list though mate! At the very least you can make the tea!


Code Dragon
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 02:38
You'd better be prepared for a cyber boom comming, unless I'm very much mistaken this community is growing FAST.

I can't wait to post a WIP for my first fully fledged game. I think I changed the genre too many times though... First an FPS, then an RPG, then an FPS/RPG, until I finally decided on platformer and let the players jump on top of the buildings all they want. The main reason I've been able to jump (no pun intended) from being a 100% 2D programmer to just an ok 3D programmer in just 2 mini projects is because of some of the great ideas I've learned here. Without them the Mekal Engine would be in "I'm gonna make a HUGE ..." scrapheap right now.

Hopefully I'll decide to start making a game out of this engine and a WIP will appear here this summmer, if not almost definitly before 2008. If it's good enough I'll get it published, believe me I have big plans a comin.

You never really know a person until you look at their google autocomplete entries.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 11:50 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2007 11:54
Quote: "@Seppuku Arts

Still thinking about the idea. The main problem I have is motivation/time really, so I've avoided trying to start a team as I don't want to let people down. It'd have to be the right formula, and the right people I think. You'd be on the list though mate! At the very least you can make the tea! "


lol, if you want to still go ahead with your idea and you think you can make it work - I'd be happy to help where I can - management when I'm at uni, modelling during the holidays - but you'd need a dude who can animate (Oolite?) because at the moment I don't have the right software (Although I may just pick up milkshape) Although taking Cash's advice to mind - not every team project fail when students are involved, just most and others progress slowly (Like PoPr when that start about 4 people were working on it) I'd see your plan first before making fully sure that I agree that the idea will work. (I mean it doesn't need to be a major uber cool game that others have attempted - usually with the letter 'MMO' infront of it)

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 13:09
Speaking of animation, Milkshape really isn't too good at it. I use Milkshape for all my animation and it poses real problems with it's lack of weighted vertices for animation. You really can't get limb joints bending properly in my opinion. So, if you ever do want to have a go at animation, I'd try and find another program for the job. Not sure which one though, as I've never looked into it.

Having said that, with cleverly modelled and textured joints (so hidden polys get kinda exposed as the joint bends), Milkshape is still viable, or for models seen at a distance it's fine (which is one of the reasons why I always go for perspectives like Claymore Island).

Anyway, I was racking my brains this morning for a project that'd be versatile, exciting and unique. I think I have a great idea, but it all hangs on some fairly complex AI. So I'm gonna have a bash at that over the weekend and the coming week, and see what I come up with. If that bit works, then I might propose a project.


Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 14:41
cool cool, Milkshape is only in my mind because it's quick an easy for animation - I'd use Cinema 4D 6, as that's great for vertex weights but it doesn't export as an animation, even with the xportor plugin (seems that Version 7 and above can do that) and well I've lost the code I need to reactivate it (Might drop an email to Maxon when I need it) But I might go ahead and buy Softimage|XSI when I'm at uni - but I don't know when that'll be - hence I might buy MS3D first as it's a measely $20 - so if this project goes ahead I might be able to animate at some point in the future.

If you got a working plan, drop me an email (If you can't see it below for some reason it's seppuku05@gmail.com) and I'll give you some input on it.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
MikeB
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Apr 2007
Location: My Computer, Shropshire, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 15:38
If you are actually going to make it I'd like it to be my zombie game OF COURSE!, because it's like the most original zombie game ever. YOU ARE THE ZOMBIE!

Anywho I will try and help with this as much as possible whatever you decide to make.


Mike

Call me Mike please
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 16:02
@David R -
Quote: "Yes, because if we don't conform to your view of project management and development, then we are not able to "understand" it either..."

We're talking about two totally different things here. I assume that you aren't familiar with Oolite's thread. It has nothing at all to do with team projects.

@Fallout -
Quote: "Defo agree with that"

Thanks

Not everyone will agree with what I am saying, others will be put off by it. Team projects have lots of appeal. People see it as a chance to get their idea made without having to do all the work necessary in an individual project. Most people want to work on the design part of the project. A few artists get on board, and a couple programmers.

Now, here's what I always see - the artist makes a couple models for the game. The programmer posts some early progress of those models in a bare bones engine. At a certain point, the programming stops for one reason or another. Sometimes the game bottlenecks too early and it kills the project. Other times it turns out to be much more work than was originally anticipated. Sometimes the programmer has other obligations. Nobody wants to share code or even use code, so it renders all the work useless.

I believe that Fallout said it was lack of media that killed projects. I stongly disagree with that. I've found a plethora of media available for use with Geisha House, and some very talented artists have lent me their talent. Every project I've seen fail has failed because of the programmer(s). An incredible amount of work is necessary, and it isn't possible to break it up evenly among different people like it is with art and music. I've seen team projects that had nothing to do with DBP, with gorgeous artwork and music, fail because the programmers couldn't deliver.

So, to add to what Fallout said, the guy at the top with the big brass balls needs to be a programmer and artist.

Quote: "So when/if those people start to let you down, you can't blame them. You've gotta have your fingers in that pie to and be able to get on with it in their absence."


Exactly. The project shouldn't fall apart because a member doesn't deliver.


Come see the WIP!
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 16:25
Quote: "We're talking about two totally different things here. I assume that you aren't familiar with Oolite's thread. It has nothing at all to do with team projects."


My comment is somewhat irrelevant to what it is though - you're remark to at least "someone understanding" makes it sounds as if we have to conform or follow whatever you said, and if we don't, we don't "understand it"


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 17:18 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2007 17:20
Quote: "I believe that Fallout said it was lack of media that killed projects. I stongly disagree with that. I've found a plethora of media available for use with Geisha House, and some very talented artists have lent me their talent. Every project I've seen fail has failed because of the programmer(s). An incredible amount of work is necessary, and it isn't possible to break it up evenly among different people like it is with art and music. I've seen team projects that had nothing to do with DBP, with gorgeous artwork and music, fail because the programmers couldn't deliver."


Well, I think it all depends where your skills lie, what you demand for your project, and what type of game you're making. IMO, an RPG is always going to have more code than an FPS or other type of shooter, because it's just vastly more complicated and detailed. You know that. So you're coming from the perspective of constantly having to add new game elements, code them, debug them, script some stuff, add some more elements, etc. Most games like shooters, platformers, FPSs, are a lot less detailed, and once the core engine is done, the majority of the remaining work is often just story/scripting and the dreaded media.

With my projects, most of the time has been spent on media. I think the most time I've ever spent on programming was making my level editor for Claymore Island, but that was a very complicated app which generated files that pre-processed lighting, AI, pathfinding, visual culling, entity movement etc. If somehow someone stuck all the Claymore Island levels, monsters with animations, weapons, textures etc. in my lap today, I could finish that game in a month, easy. As it stands, it took me the best part of a week to make that one monastry level by myself.

So, like you said, other people can help you with media, but normally to get media you either need to get in with some good artists, accept poorer quality work, or pay for decent stuff. One of the reasons why I do everything myself is because I have very strict requirements on my media. For example, certain texture sizes, walls of an exact scale, doorways of an exact with, all unnecessary polys removed. Also the exporting (from 3DWS), has to be done in an exact way to suit my culling engine. It's the same with my 3D models .. they have to have an identical bone structure, and be made in the right app, so my animations apply to all monsters. They have to have the right polycount, and have a shadow version for shadow shading. Just a few example of how personally, I need my media to follow exact criteria, which means I can't often use free stuff, and people who want to help me out have to follow exact guidelines that half the time they can't understand (as they're often not coders themselves).

I think it's project dependant. It appears you definitely have a project with a coding bias due to it's complexity, but most of the projects I've started have a media bias, and one that it's very hard for me to satisfy with free media, bought media, or outside assistance.


Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 18:04
In that case, it might not be that hard to get somebody - I'm sure some will have difficulty keeping to your specs, work with one guy to get them up to scratch and they can do that with anybody else who offers to help. Get them to prepare generic models that fit your specifications first so that if they fall behind you can start copying, pasting and renaming models to later be replaced by the real thing. (Although I guess this doesn't work for the environment so much)

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 20:36 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2007 20:37
Quote: "IMO, an RPG is always going to have more code than an FPS or other type of shooter, because it's just vastly more complicated and detailed. You know that. So you're coming from the perspective of constantly having to add new game elements, code them, debug them, script some stuff, add some more elements, etc. Most games like shooters, platformers, FPSs, are a lot less detailed, and once the core engine is done, the majority of the remaining work is often just story/scripting and the dreaded media."

Please don't think that Geisha House takes less media I've spent an enormous amount of time on media. Like you, I've had to animate every model so that they share animation skeletons. I set the system up so that it can use multiple skeletons, but keeping them all the same really reduces the complexity of things like weapons and shadows. I can use any mesh that satisfies my needs for poly counts, but I have to animate it and make its texture from scratch.

What I did was create a representative sample of all the media necessary for the final product, then began working exclusively on the engine. It wouldn't have been possible to properly create the engine without some real media in place, but if I didn't create the engine then all of my media wouldn't be totally right for the project. I've had to make some changes along the way.

I've still got a ton of media to create for the project. Though I'm nearly done with the engine, the work that I'll have to do on the media is still incredible. I think to say that Geisha House requires less media than other games is unfair, I think.

It is project dependent though, in the sense that some projects can't use multiple sources of outside media. It's for this reason that I chose GH's current style - realistic. Had I chosen another style I wouldn't have been able to take advantage of multiple sources of artwork.

It all depends. But one constant remains - any game that uses a variety of animated models (RPG, RTS, 3rd person shooter) will require lots of programming and lots of art. There is no way around it, and a team effort is no magic answer.

@David R -
Nothing against you. I don't know or care what you're talking about. If you've got a problem with me then e-mail me, otherwise it just seems like you're complaining.


Come see the WIP!
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 21:04
@Cash

No no no. I dont think GH has less media than other games. It's just the complexity of an RPG and indeed GH means that coding is still a major part of the game. I mean, when they code Quake, the majority of the work goes into the graphics/world engine ... we already have the majority of that done for us with DBP.

But anyway, you obviously put a lot of work into the media yourself, and will have to continue to do so. Imagine if all of that work was done by someone else ... all of it. And you just did the code and scripting. You'd probably be finished now, right? So media is definitely a back breaker. I'm not saying a game developer can't overcome problems with media ... I'm just saying it's one of the major workloads and therefore problems.


Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 22:40
Quote: "Imagine if all of that work was done by someone else ... all of it. And you just did the code and scripting. You'd probably be finished now, right?"

Yeah, I would I can't imagine something like that working unless it was done professionally or I lived with this person. If situation #2 was true, I sure hope it was an attractive lady with a thing for wannabe game developers.


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 24th Jun 2007 01:00 Edited at: 24th Jun 2007 01:01
If that's the cause for most problems, perhaps if one did want to try a teamed project, give it a go - if it doesn't look like it'll work , then recycle anything and use that for a different project - I mean it wouldn't be a waste of time, you tried an idea on how to get a working team and you had something to fall back on - I mean the coders keep their code and the modellers keep their models, as pretty much anything can be recycled (Some adjustments on textures and mesh can make almost any low poly organic model look like new ) And well the coders will be able to use placer models (made by the old modellers) to work into their back-up projects.

Okay not many indie teams have worked, but it takes learning from people's mistakes and finding the solutions to the typical problems before they arise. Difficult it may be - I mean I worked on Rush and that team soon fell apart - I had exams, the leader had exams, another main member had exams, we had one modeller who could spare time and one or two coders - once I was ready again, the project had fallen apart - plus with a little problem we had amongst a couple of members. But had those problems been backed up with a solution and the team had something to motivate them, I'm sure Rush would be on its way to completion - though other problems may have occured (We did make a couple of team requests in our struggle, but the positions weren't filled). I also think management would have helped too and the fact I was an amature 3D modeller at the time - which meant one member was left with all the animations. (As I was using anim8or at the time - though I moved onto C4D 6 when the project went downhill)

Some of that above might be a common problem with most team projects and I think all of that can be avoided - but of course I'm sure I'll be proven wrong.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 24th Jun 2007 01:36
Still experimenting here mate. I was busy today, but I sketched out a plan for my investigation tonight, and just made a start. I actually downloaded codesurge aswell, which seems pretty cool. Again, it depends on how this investigation goes, but I might still be up for a team project.

Might get a chance to work on it tomorrow. Either way, I'll get the kettle ready for you.


Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 24th Jun 2007 10:58
Cool cool, take you time if you will, I still gotta replace my monitor (How am I posting with a busted monitor? With difficulty )and finish these last two exams. If you need anything before I go to uni, may as well note, first week of July I'm on holiday and the First week of August I'm in Germany for the Wacken Festival. Of course if it doesn't go ahead, no biggy - I've been meaning to get to grips with Torque a bit more.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Shadow heart
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2006
Location: US
Posted: 24th Jun 2007 11:27
i dont' know. even since march i've been planing summer to be the time for my new prject but ever since i got my comp things have been slow. i NEEd to get motivated in game making agin!

to the ones thats trapped inside of you, this is it!!

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-18 19:45:35
Your offset time is: 2024-11-18 19:45:35