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Work in Progress / UltimateMMO.DLL WIP Thread

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 03:01 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 14:52
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Edit at 5:30 Mountain Time: I just finished a complete login cycle and have also saved info and have pulled login/account info from the database , this also includes if you are banned you cant login

Here we go,

Ok well, im really tired right now hence the fact ive been up all night for the past 2 days working on this project but i will give you a percentage on thangs on how im doing and tommarow give you a better update:

Login Server:
-ByteBuffer for packets : 100%
-Multi-thread the server: 100%
-Logging In: 100%
- Save/Create Account Info in Database: 100%
- Character Creation: 0%


Zone Server:
-ByteBuffer for packet: 100%
-Multi-thread the server: 100%
(thats all im going to say for now on the zone server, becasue i wanna finish up login first)


Ok there you go if you have any questions just ask DONT FLAME!

Cheers,
Lordcorm

P.S. Will Post Screenies ASAP

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 07:28
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bump for edit

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tha_rami
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2007 11:02
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Mmm, lordcorm, for some reason I genuinly believe that you're working hardly on this, but I think most people around here will like to see your actual script in progress instead of a plain (?) + 1 or 2 DarkMATTER models.

You can upload your image, it's actually there. Click the view button, and copy the URL of that page. Then edit your post and add:

[#img#] url goes here [#/img#] where you naturally remove the #'s


Little Bright Dots
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The crazy
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 01:07
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Why'd you create a whole new thread? To waste space?

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Nack
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 01:54
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lets not flame until after this prove to be flamable lol
if this dll works, many ppl will thank you. keep up the good work. Use video too if u can =]


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The crazy
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2007 02:26
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I'm not flaming its just pointing out he didnt need to take up space for just him with two threads. (With not much to show for that matter)

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 24th Jun 2007 03:56
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This project is postpom for family problems, will get back soon

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 02:07
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Im now back and working on this project will give you guys an update ASAP.

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 05:21
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Ok, now before i start some serious down hard and durty work and design i have some , well, alot of questions for the community because i want to do what the community wants to do, so here are my questions for ya:

1) Before i start inital work on the networking engine, i would like to know which libary you would like me to use, i have pro's and con's for each libary so here we go:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
DarkBASIC DirectPlay Functions

PROS:
Faster Development of this project.
It uses TCP so more reliablity on knowing that your packet has been sent and recived.
More Stability for the server(s) hence the fact the functions have already been tested.

CONS:
Only 255 people per server. (Well the way to get around this is to have a server for each map/planet/instance and then have multiple servers per map/planet/instance. This will also bring up a PRO because it will create less lag. But also a CON because you have to have multiple applications up.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
UPD WINSOCK

PROS:
Can have as many people as you want per server and will allow one application for everythang.
Tad faster then DirectPlay.

CONS:
Dont know if your packet will ever make it to its destination.
I would have to write a whole new networking engine from scratch which could take some serious development time and testing.
If you have one application for everythang... If one thang crashes you whole mmo crashes. Having a server per map will allow your players to still play but just not with that particular map.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, my next question is also about networking. Do you want all the packet structures premade? Or do you want me to allow you to make all the packets for the game using functions such as:
WriteInt_ToBuffer()
WriteByte_ToBuffer()
WriteFloat_toBuffer()
WriteWord_toBuffer()
WriteDWord_toBuffer()
ect....

Ok, now thats all my questions now i will give you an update on my plans.

I plan to start out by writting a MM-MUD (Massivly Multiplayer Multi User Dungeon). What that will allow me to do is see "Hey all my networking and database stuff are good an ready to go, now lets start loading object, sounds, ect... into the game an managing them". Its very smart to start out with this becasue it gets rid of all the hard parts, then just leaves me with loading in the objects and handleing them.

Now, right now at the minute i think what im going to release first is an "MMORPG Maker" for the fact that it will allow alot of testing for everythang that will be in the DLL. About mabe a month after the realease of MMORPG Maker i will most likly realse the DLL.

But before all that I will most definatly build and MMO and put a server up for testing.

Well that was a long post.... Thanks for reading it, hope you enjoyed it,
Lordcorm

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jason p sage
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 07:22
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How About a Packet "word" (2 byte) as a desriptor - So you can use your "pre made" packet formats - maybe allowing some different kinds of games to interact some day (like sharing the same Server Space) and the Non premade packets for the down and dirty game/program specific packets that people want to make their own way for whatever purposes suit them?

Just a thought.
Jason P Sage

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2007 07:27
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Very good idea

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 17:04
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bump for edit...

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jason p sage
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 19:03
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What does "Bump For Edit" Mean?

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thebulk71
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 20:21
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he wants his WIP to show up at the top of the thread list... to be honnest, it's kinda cheesy. Bump your stuff when you have something impressive to show, like a working demo or something.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 20:29
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I don't exactly see the point of this. The client part of this is already possible with existing plugins, and to be honest, why would you use a DBP server for a MMORPG?

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 22:17
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Quote: "I don't exactly see the point of this. The client part of this is already possible with existing plugins, and to be honest, why would you use a DBP server for a MMORPG?"


Thats where people are mistaken, everthang about an MMORPG is controlled by the server, if you wanna move, you need to ask the server, if you wanna pick up an item you ask the server, if you wanna get in combat you ask the server, plus more...

Client Side is the easyest you just recive packets and load what it tells you to load or do, ect...

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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 22:36 Edited at: 4th Jul 2007 22:36
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Quote: "Thats where people are mistaken, everthang about an MMORPG is controlled by the server, if you wanna move, you need to ask the server, if you wanna pick up an item you ask the server, if you wanna get in combat you ask the server, plus more..."

Where are they mistaken? Everything I've said is true. Writing a server in DBP is a bad idea because it's just hugely inefficient.

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 23:02
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Quote: "Where are they mistaken? Everything I've said is true. Writing a server in DBP is a bad idea because it's just hugely inefficient."


Not if you know how to code (not saying you dont).

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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 23:09
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Quote: "Not if you know how to code (not saying you dont)."

That's nothing to do with it. It's a well known fact (among those who like to do networking programming) that when you write a server it should be as efficient as possible and have little overhead. For a server, DBP has a hell of a lot of overhead due to it being designed to render scenes in 3D and do a multitude of other things that aren't necessary for a server. Not only this, but DBP generally doesn't produce efficient code compared to C++.

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 23:14
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Fine no problem i will just write my server in staight C++, all i need to do is copy all the code from my DLL into a console program.... do a few tweeks.

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jason p sage
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Posted: 4th Jul 2007 23:37
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I have to agree... DBP is not the language of choice for a server. But C++ isn't necessarily the way to go either. I wrote a FreePascal web server that is more than twice as fast as Apache and Lighttp web server's. Microsoft's IIE doesn't even come close (All that .net bloat)

I would personally write a server in FPC. http://www.freepascal.org and http://lazarus.freepascal.org

I have miles of code for this sort of thing if you choose to go this route.


Good Day All
Jason

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 00:37
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Quote: "I have to agree... DBP is not the language of choice for a server. But C++ isn't necessarily the way to go either. I wrote a FreePascal web server that is more than twice as fast as Apache and Lighttp web server's. Microsoft's IIE doesn't even come close (All that .net bloat)

I would personally write a server in FPC. http://www.freepascal.org and http://lazarus.freepascal.org

I have miles of code for this sort of thing if you choose to go this route.



Good Day All
Jason"

Isnt pascal an old language... my dad said he used it when he was a civil engineer
I dont think pascal is OOP, which is something that you must have for an MMORPG server, because you allocating new memory for each client that comes in....

I think im still going to look into this though but for other projects.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 03:02
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No.

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jason p sage
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 03:43 Edited at: 5th Jul 2007 03:45
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You see - many are ignorant of where Pascal is. Pascal is OOP, in fact it is more geared to handle parallel processing than C++.

You ever heard of Sales Logix? (Owned by Sage Software...no relation) Its one of the best CRM systems out there - and its written in Pascal. they put a VB script engine in it just so "microsoft people" would not be turned off by the fact.

Freepascal allows you to write Window GUI apps that run on WinXP, Vista, Macintosh, Linux, FreeBSD and others - without having to change your code and its as fast - in some cases faster than C++

C++ has been around almost as long as your DAD - and so has Pascal. Both languages have never stopped advancing

Good Day
Jason P Sage

BTW - Its easier to read - more english like, not case sensitive and you don't need to make header files - it smarter than that. Its pretty darn cool. You can write DirectX apps with it also

[edit]If DarkGDK worked with it - I'd be in Game programming Heaven[/edit]

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 08:10
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Lordcorm, Benjamin is 100% correct about evey single thing he said.

Writing a server in DBP would just be bad. A server doesn't need any graphics at all. Personally, being a single developer, I'd write the server in Purebasic (it has well developed networking protocols) and I'd make a plugin for DBP to directly communicate with that server. The client could be made in DBP. I'd have an intermediate server that the client would access to get the server IP addresses so that it could automatically connect.

If you really want this to work Lordcorm then you should change your project structure a bit. The real problem with an MMORPG creation system is that you don't have an RPG, so you won't be able to properly structure the server/client relationship. I certainly wish you well on this, but both your attitude and experience don't bode well for this.

Quote: "Not if you know how to code (not saying you dont)."

You should be slapped (literally) for that. I know how to code and I wouldn't even consider using DBP for the server software.


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Lordcorm
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 08:56
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Ok the server is fully converted over to C++ now, and Crash about you calling me in experianced.. im not.. if you read my last post ive worked and am working on a real mmorpg that people play on, its Star Wars Galaxies Pre-CU Emu (www.swgprecu.com). So trust me when i say i know what im doing, starting out with an normal rpg is a bad idea for the fact that when you go back through and put the packets in you will have to rewrite about 75% of it.

BTW sence the server is in C++ now there is no way i can think of right now to make a client dll that will work with the server that would allow you to costimize so this project is now just "MMORPG Maker" (sorta a code name).

Cheers,
Lordcorm

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jason p sage
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 13:57
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Well - we all know how to code somewhat or we wouldn't be having these discussions. Truth be told - we want you to succeed.

As for making a dll... Sure there is!

First of all - you in theory have an EXE that waits for TCP/IP (Or UDP) connections/packets - MAYBE tracks MASTER PLAN game info etc.

You need to define WHAT the client needs to accomplish. Your DLL does not need to talk to the server via direct memory... You could just have a few main functions that can be called from DBP. You could also write this part in DBP - but you might get better performance in C++.

You really are only having network conversations with the server in theory - so the client DLL - only needs to be called from your DBP game, and then perform the requested operations across the LAN.

Find Game, Select Game, Join Game, Wait for Start, Get Updates, Send Updates, Close Game (force leave), and some sort of handshake when the game "ends" because of the server saying so.

Because the code for this could be a few pages long - writing it C++ should help speed - and in theory you just need to read the forums and docs online on how to make a DBPRO dll. You shouldn't have to worry about making the DLL have direct memory access to the Server if I understand your client/server configuration.

Though I could mbe missing the whole concept your trying to accomplish - but these are my 2 cents... Wish you well!

Jason P Sage

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 5th Jul 2007 21:26
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What i thought of last night was that an easy way to do this whould be through a lua file, i was going to add them anywas for npcs so im going to add lua in.. then just dump all the packets in there.

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jason p sage
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 00:57
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I'm not sure what a lua file is - but I'd be curious to see how you make out. Unfortunately - I have two projects that are business related I must complete before I can continue my game's development.

"Sad But True" (Decent Metallica Song as a matter of fact)

Jason P Sage

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 03:20
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A LUA file wouldn't be good at all. It's a text file, and is great for game scripting, but not sharing packets between the server and clients at all. If you have the packet then there's no reason to write it to the hard drive, you might as well keep it in memory, don't you think? You'll constantly be writing to the HD, that will just be a mess.

Lordcorm, seriously, you'd be better off making a single player RPG. You'd have to restructure the engine for your MMORPG, but all of the core systems would be done and all of the code would be directly portable. An RPG is so complex, so if you can't make an RPG then you have no business making an MMORPG at all.


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Lordcorm
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 03:41
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no im not writeing to a lua file then sending it.... What im doing is i will have a dump of all my packets in a lua file, then the end user can go in and edit the packets, and then at run time i go in there and and pull the packet from the lua file.

Listen if i didnt know how to make an MMORPG i wouldnt be taking it on right now, ive worked on a real one before as ive said above so this is to all the people how will come and and say "Hey just make a single player RPG", i know what im doing, so just please dont post anythang about trying to convince me to make a singeplayer RPG.

Thank You,
Lordcorm

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Kieran
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 15:00
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Quote: "
Listen if i didnt know how to make an MMORPG i wouldnt be taking it on right now, ive worked on a real one before as ive said above so this is to all the people how will come and and say "Hey just make a single player RPG", i know what im doing, so just please dont post anythang about trying to convince me to make a singeplayer RPG."


Im with lordcorm here, he can make an MMORPG thingy if he wants, we can't stop him and we shouldn't. Even if he couldn't make and Multiplayer-RPG he would certainly learn alot about it from trial & error and asking some people, looking at references and tutorials etc and would learn alot about it and would probably end up building one in the end. Who are we to say what he can an can't do. Leave him alone about that.

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jason p sage
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 20:08
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I agree with many of you simultaneously - and I don't think anyone is bashing Lordcorm's efforts.

I'm guessing here - but I think perhaps many are aware of what an undertaking this is and no one wants to see Lordcorm get to that place (I've been at before) where I created a monster and can't finish.

On the same note - I'm glad he's going for it - I can't wait to see something! I've worked on projects where I've been under the hood for months before I caould tell someone - look at this... just due to the nature of what needed to be done first to make it possible.

Go for it Lordcorm! Pull it off!
Jason P Sage

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Blastwave man
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 20:13 Edited at: 6th Jul 2007 20:15
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Lordcorn:
SO your writing the packet information to a LUA, or the type of packet to be sent in a LUA file? Wouldn't it be faster to have this hardcoded? At least the packet types to be sent, everything else would be grabbed for the server and or client. I'm not sure I follow you on this course of action.

Though I'm basing my knowledge off of writing simple multiplayer between two people over a LAN line. It would just seem a better course to send the packets directly instead of searching for you LUA, loading the information then sending the packets.

You also talk about having packets not being sent or received by both parties, and then saying your MMO will crash. When I've programed for multiplayer, I always have checks to see if a packet is received or not, and have a resend function for any packet not received. To further complement this, I've also add function to predict player movement based on their previous action, so encase something isn't received, the game will update the information it self, and re-correct anything later when they receive the misplaced packets.

From what I've read about programming MMO's, and i've read at least 3 books at my local library, thats how MMO's are setup, so there is no crashing. Keep everything moving smoothly no matter the situation. Though there are exceptions such as bad net connections, which then you would need to catch and be able to have both client and host stop packet flow and have the client automatically disconnect.

You said you know how to program an MMO, but I don't believe you. I haven't seen anything of yours that would indicate otherwise. I agree with Cash when he said that you need to start smaller.

Sorry.

BWM


"I wish I was a wizard, becuase then I could wave my wand and perfect code would just appear."
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Lordcorm
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Posted: 6th Jul 2007 23:25
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GO TO HERE TO SEE SOME OF MY WORK, www.swgprecu.com, if you really want me to i will post screenies.

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Blastwave man
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Posted: 7th Jul 2007 00:33 Edited at: 7th Jul 2007 00:34
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SO your taking a company's 100k+ hours of work and adapting it to your own emulated server? You send hundreds to thousands of packets a second to get information passed between host and client? Are you crazy!? From what I've seen, you can have a a couple peps playing...you have nothing implemented worth mentioning, you have no combat, NPC's...you talk about build placement, and building cities. This is nothing. I'm sorry, but you don't know what your doing, I don't' care what you've done with the project.

I'm sorry, your not ready for creating an "mmo" dll of any kind, because you don't have the foundation of a game to work with.

Multiplayer isn't just about sending packets and receiving them. Theres much more to it then that! You have to have a system that can adapt and predict information so theres no visual lag to the player. You also need this so your game isn't constantly stopping to wait for packets so it can update. You actually stated in your Q/A that you wouldn't implement this, just send packets and hope for the best. Have you worked on any type of multiplayer before this? I doubt it.

I doubt you actually read my post before and listened, which is why I'm repeating myself. You saw my comment about you not knowing what your doing and decided to retaliate... I still believe that statement.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to shoot down your dreams or what not, I'm just saying you need more knowledge before your able to accomplish this project. Do a little more research in multiplayer design. Theres an excellent one in the actual DBP help files written by the Starwraith creator.

Anyway good luck with your work, and I don't plan on posting anymore in this thread, because you'll probably start a flame war after you read this.

BWM


"I wish I was a wizard, becuase then I could wave my wand and perfect code would just appear."
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Lordcorm
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Posted: 7th Jul 2007 02:24 Edited at: 7th Jul 2007 02:24
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I like how everyone just loves me now isnt it great....

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jason p sage
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Wow. At least this thread gets a lot of action! Well, for me - if you care - I'm converting to C++ due to DarkGDK - and .. well - though I understand it rather well (what OOP is, the cryptic syntax, poly morphism, encapsulation, operator overloading etc etc.) I still find C++ ugly as heck to read - regardless how neat the code. Even my own .. well I can read my own - but reading others is difficult - and when you try to look at others code that is calling classes they wrote - well - without understanding the classes in depth - it looks like a foreign language. Makes my head hurt - and I've been coding awhile... a LONG while. (FreePascal is so much cleaner...sniff)....

The DarkGDK stuff is pretty much a one-to-one with DBPro - so its not bad at all... but to do cool stuff with it - I need to build a lib.

Now for MMO etc... (I saw your site - saw something about closed TC and didn't go much further) I'm a Screen + CLICK HERE TO PLAY kinda browser... but I digress...

I'm surprised you you are getting such strong reactions from everyone... and I'm surprised you aren't using some socket/inet lib for your packets (after reading this through).

I do appreciate the comments about makign code slick enough to "appear" smooth - when game misses packets - so that it appears to play correctly anyway - and the necessity for how far you take that depends I suppose on how shaky the game looks otherwise. For many situations I think you can keep existing inertia/speed/direction unless a wall hit. I dunno - but that is a mini application in itself potentially.

I think you should keep working on it and toss a screen shot up here or two if you can. Maybe the definitions to a few of your packets - and see what replies that generates

Keep at it man! (As long as its still fun!)

Jason P Sage

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 12:17 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 12:18
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Silvester
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 12:34
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Intresting and Ambitious project,though this will let more people want to create theyr MMO's though...

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 14:55
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Silvester
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 14:59
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Hey,I commented!


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Lordcorm
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:02
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And your a good man

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Silvester
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:06
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Uhm,Im not that good,I am actually not allowed to be behind my PC of my Girl,though i still do so...oh well...

Anyway,I hope you finish this,as it should be a GREAT thing to have for everybody here,even for the newcomers,As they will then see that it isnt easy.Even with a plugin designed to make a game.


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Lordcorm
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:08
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I cant even predict how many commands i will be adding but it will be alot...

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Silvester
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:11
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I can understand that...As an MMO will require lots of stuff.Quests,Items,NPC's,Hostile NPC's,Classes,Races(Optional) Multiple Area's(Is faster then one big area)...

Good luck though.


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Lordcorm
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:12
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The 2 biggest goals of mine is to make it as customizable for the end-user and stablility.

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Silvester
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:16
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Yes,those points are very important indeed...Without costumizabilty every creation would work the same.and without stability...well,you can think of that i think.

DISASTER!

*Cough*back to the normal world...


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Lordcorm
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:18
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Oh man i need some sleep, ive now stayed up for 3 nights for this project , but now im very tired, i will check in every once in a while like every 30 minutes now.

*yawn*

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Lordcorm
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 10:39
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Ok, just a quick update , Login Server is almost completely done, all i have to do is save characters to database, and i can already load them, so now im going to go through and stable it up some more, because right now it needs it.

Lordcorm

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