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Geek Culture / I'm fed up

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Darth Vader
19
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Joined: 10th May 2005
Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 12:32
With myself that is. It's been over 2 years now that I've had Dark Basic Pro and nothing but a buggy barley usable horse gambling game. Not much! I've been trying to learn for 2 years now and I feel ready to quit. I can't program, I can't model, I can't draw I just don't know what to do! I feel really depressed because I have this really great idea for a game and I can't even make a simple map editor for it! I can't program AI I can do basic collision with Sparkys DLL, but that's it. If I had to hard code it I couldn't do it! All I ever see is what my brothers been saying,
Quote: ""All I ever see you do in Dark Basic is create cubes!""
. It grates on my nerves sometimes! I don't know were to go I keep coming here to the forum for help and thank God your 90% percent happy to help when I show you the code and ask for the proper help! But I'm begging to feel like a newbie asking for constant help with every little item! I recently posted a problem in the DBpro boards asking for "Unique Help" it was to do with design before programming. To sum it all up I feel - at the moment - like i just want to throw the whole Game Creation thing away! But I know I'd regret it later!

I really don't know what to do I sit there programming my map maker and I get something to work and I experience a bit of joy and then I think about all the other unresolved problems I have, AI, Text, 2D, Physics, Triggers, Putting it all together, making the game flow, Adding cut-scenes, 3D modeling! And then I come here and I look at threads and see stuff I've never heard of and I feel even more noobish! I look at Geisha House, Pirates of Port Royale and I feel like I could never accomplish what Cash and Gil are doing, not to mention what DB user 2006+ is doing I still think he is one of the best members this forum has to date! (Personal Opinion).

The ironic thing about all of this is 2 years ago I didn't know what I wanted to do, then I found Game Dev and I was bought! This is what I want to get a career in! That is is the stupidest thing! Here I am wanting to quit and I want to get a career in it, I must be losing my marbles!

I don't know what I expect from you great forum guys or TGC for that matter; but if you know of any way to help please tell me before I pull my hair out!


indi
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 12:42
take a break

then


buy a note pad

rip out a page

write the ideas down

write down the ideas again in order into the notepad.

acknowledge that every little step you take will eventually get there.

Plan it out, and keep it real.

Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
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Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 12:50
Honestly, if you're having second thoughts about it, do not go for the career in it.
Find something else that you're interested in and try that.

If you still want to press on, then what you need is experience. And, two years is nowhere near enough.
Start small (Yes, you've heard it all before, but it's true, and it works!) with something like Pac Man, Tetris, then move to Asteroids to learn about collision, rotation, physics, etc.
If you're interested, take the time out (after the game is finished) to make it look spectacular.

Read articles on GameDev.net, or gamasutra as often as you need to know any information.
Find all the tutorials on this site (there's plenty), or on tutorialcity, and follow them to the letter. Don't skip ahead, don't skip a tutorial, and make sure you actually understand everything.

It's anything but easy, but the rewards are great (personally, at least), and you'll gain so much more knowledge while having fun

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 12:54
Don't let it depress you, I haven't had a game yet and I got DBC at the start of 2004 (And DBP later) just start small and build from there. If you want to create a game, grab a map editor like deled, build a level, grab a fully animated model, not your own, perhaps use some more later and begin to build an engine.

I mean start small within the engine, I think graphics/media, camera/movment, build on abilities - like attack, talk, pickup, create NPs with AI and then make your first level, then you can include collision whenever you feel necessary, at the end doesn't even matter.

Just try to keep simple and to the main mechanics of a game, don't over do yourself...

And of course as indi said take a break

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Cash Curtis II
19
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Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 14:36 Edited at: 8th Jul 2007 14:37
You need to take a break from game programming and educate yourself. There are so many great tutorials, and while it is so tempting to jump right in and start making a game yourself, it is so important to learn it correctly first.

Just having DBP doesn't mean that you can make games. You still have to be a decent programmer. I was a programmer long before DBP, which really helped me.

So, set yourself up for success. Start from ground 0, read all the help files, try a tutorial a day. There have been fantastic tutorials in the Newsletters aimed at getting you started in DBP the right way.

Learn to model. 3D World Studio is a fantastic and easy to use piece of software, as is Milkshape. There are so many Milkshape tutorials to get you started.

Check out Psionic's tutorial page, absolutely fantastic. I learned to use Milkshape from them...
http://www.psionic3d.co.uk/page.php?3

And, what I consider to be the most important thing ever - make a couple simple games. Dare I say, start with Pong? Then move on to something funner, like Pac Man, Dig Dug, etc. Remake simple but fun games that others can play and won't take you too long to finish.

After a couple smaller games you'll feel good about game making, and your abilities will have greatly increased.

Good luck


Come see the WIP!
Fallout
22
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 14:53
Like Cash said. There aren't many people who'd be able to put together a complex game in DBP without some prior programming experience. Even if they're self taught, most people who pick up DBP and produce a high quality game in a couple of years will have had some years of prior coding experience.

I've been coding since I was about 12, just messing about, and then did 2 years of it at A Level in Turbo Pascal, then 6 years on and off at uni in a bunch of different languages. Without any of that formal training, and earlier exposure to programming, I'd be struggling too. So what you need to do is either dedicate a lot of time to going through tutorials and learning properly, or choose a programming subject at school. It doesnt matter if it's c++, java, Visual Basic, Pascal or whatever ... they're all the same. The only difference is syntax and some high level concepts in the more advanced languages.

I don't know how old you are matey (don't tell us! ) but don't expect too much from yourself if you're young. I wouldn't expect anyone under the age of 16 to be producing anything impressive code wise, unless they were a real bright spark and had been programming for a long time. It's only the level of education you get from 16 onwards that gives you the skills you need to get stuck in. Up until then, it's up to you to figure out the complex stuff yourself.

Personally, until I got to A Level (so 12->16) I never made anything but simple text adventures and basic 2D stuff (in other basic languages). It wasn't till I got to uni that DBClassic came out, and I gave it a try. So I had 6 or more years programming before DBC came out and I started using it, and then I never really produced anything impressive for years. I just played about with it. So it takes time, but you just gotta stick with it, and don't expect too much from yourself. It takes a long time to learn everything you need to know.


Green Gandalf
VIP Member
19
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Joined: 3rd Jan 2005
Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 15:11
Yes, the main thing is to set yourself realistic goals.

Making a complete, state of the art, 3D game is, frankly, beyond most people's abilities when working alone.

Just look at the credits for some of the commercial games:

programmers
artists
modellers
game play designers
story writers
music composers

and so on.

Don't lose heart. Just get something simple up and running that your kid sister/brother or someone can actually play and build from there.

No-one else is going to expect you, on your own, to compete with the commercial products - and you shouldn't expect yourself to either.

For that matter, I'd also be surprised if the commercial game companies expect you to have produced a state of the art game on your own.

If you have a particular skill, eg composing music, then build a simple game which makes good use of music. Find your skills and put them to good use.

Good luck and above all enjoy yourself.
Zotoaster
19
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Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 16:39
Don't make a game! I'm serious, there is so much else you can do, even though DBPro is designed for games. What I did was just spend a while looking into different areas. I learned alot about AI, GUI, Scripting/File/String stuff, Physics, etc. I compile everything I know into easy to use libraries, and in a little time, I can easily put together a game engine. Once you have a good game engine, you can put a great game together in about a week!

Dared1111
18
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Posted: 8th Jul 2007 16:57
I sometimes feel like this. I get past it, just think what people would say if you complete a polished looking game.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it was too big
Lucifer
18
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Posted: 8th Jul 2007 17:02
buy a catapult, and hurl your copy of darkbasic into the sun..



stupid game!
Zotoaster
19
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Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 17:05
I think if you try to participate in some of the DBPro Coding Challenges, you will learn alot.

Dazzag
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Cyprus
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 17:33 Edited at: 8th Jul 2007 17:34
Try not to think of things as a competition against other forum users. Otherwise you will get nothing done. Easier to enjoy yourself programming away, and if you think it's good enough to release then do it. Otherwise don't bother. At least you enjoyed yourself doing it. And who cares if it looks like next-gen graphics as long as you get something out of it.

Personally I'm having a go at the text adventure competition, if I can find the time, mainly because I haven't used DBP for years and want to get back into things. I don't believe I will have the time to properly finish a game, so I'm going to do a simple MUD. Ok, so the competition rules (mainly story based, and MUDs are a bit difficult to do as well as proper text adventures) will probably make it have no chance of winning, but I don't really care. Just doing it for the fun of it. If you ever get to play a beta, and if I manage to even complete 20% of it, then great. At least I did something basically.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Zombie 20
17
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Joined: 26th Nov 2006
Location: Etters, PA
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 18:37
Don't worry vader, I get like this sometimes too. For me, its just a build-up of my "real-life" problems since I program in a fantasy world of ever-flowing caffiene rivers and unicorns. But seriously, go into the living room, watch some history channel or tech tv (does it for me at least) and just relax and think about this.

"Do I want this as a hobby or a career?" Delve as deep as you can go into this thought, a lot of paramters are on the field, if you do choose it as a career study up, I'm self-teaching myself c++ and it will give you a workout, but then its that personal hump you want to get over and once you learn it you can run outside and yell to the heavens. Of course someone may tell you to shut up but you still did it.

Take a break, breathe and go have some fun and enjoy the summer. Work on small stuff, I haven't been coding for long but its so true, small stuff will teach you the most. Try to write a small inventory system or something or fling a ball and catch it in a bucket. The possiblities range as far as your imagination, if you think you can do it, you will.

Zombie(TheCheeseGrater)

jasonhtml
20
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Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: OC, California, USA
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 22:00
you're thinking of quiting after 2 years??? ive been here for twice as long and i havent finished any games yet. and if you really do feel like you can't program, or model, or draw; find something you're good at and maybe be part of a team. if you can't make a game all by yourself, you can at least help someone make theirs and add in some of your ideas.

or you could right up tutorials about what you're good at. you said you're really good at sparkys collision. well, i know that there are plenty of people that could use a well written tutorial on how to use it and keep it organized. the first time i used it, after i had more than like 30 objects to work with, my code started getting very messy.

but, if you really want to make YOUR game, then just take your time. your not competing with anyone (unless you haven't told us so) and you have plenty of time. if there is something you absolutely cannot figure out, just ask for help on the forums. many of us will gladly help...

FredP
Retired Moderator
18
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Joined: 27th Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Posted: 8th Jul 2007 22:14
Quote: "before I pull my hair out!"


If you do please get a vid of it and post it here...Seriously,though,it's just gaming and there are more important things in life to worry about.

Please have mercy and use the search function.
Oolite
19
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Joined: 28th Sep 2005
Location: Middle of the West
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 00:31
Well said Fred, have you ever thought about getting more socially active, spend more time with friends or family, maybe get your arse down the pub every now and again, not the best place to meet people but it beats sitting at home wondering what game to make next, as cash has told me before, do smaller projects, it worked wonders for me, but i did have other things to worry about and that was a nice stress reliever, i had many times where i lost a bit of interest or couldn't find the motivation for any 3d work but i never doubted that i wanted to be in the 3d artist, maybe it might be time to branch out your interests to find something else to do, not everything should revolve around game design, even if it is in the field you want to go into when you are older.

Just take a break (maybe a couple of weeks), even if you have ideas, jot them down and then after the break start getting to work on them, plan everything out, that shall stop failure, you are not going to get anything done with low spirits, so you have to raise those before anything else, which i can recommend a break for.

(i did not proof read, so i probably have a few spelling/grammar errors and have probably contradicted myself a few times...)


[Looking for work]
Darth Vader
19
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Joined: 10th May 2005
Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 09:12
I think I just needed to get that off my chest, I'm feeling a lot better now. Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone I think I'm going to take it. I'm having a programming break but getting a notepad like indi said to write all my ideas in. I've already downloaded a ton of tutorials so after my break I'm going to wade into them slowly and carefully! I also got a a few theory documents for AI and Design. I've decided that when I've finished my break I'm going to start getting involved with the DBpro coding challenges, just to help me along a bit more! After reading through most of the tutorials I'm going to start a small 2D game (Pacman, breakout, tetris or some other puzzle game not pong though!).

So again thanks for all the motivation to get going again. I think my expecting to be able to program a full blown 3D game after only 2 years of complete beginners experience was a bit to much!
Thanks I'm all smiles again!

Quote: "If you do please get a vid of it and post it here"

That really made me laugh!


Aaron Miller
18
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Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 10:02
Quote: "Quote: "If you do please get a vid of it and post it here"
That really made me laugh!"

I wanna see a vid of someone literally pulling the hair out of they're head... (And I mean a LOT of hair at once) ouch...


Anyways, I can't offer anything more than searching google for "How to make a game", and look for which tutorial is best and easiest for you. As for modelling, I use Wings 3D, I find it the easiest possible modelling software to use, and don't see how anyone finds anything easier, I honestly don't. Course, this isn't to praise wings. Try a number of differant modelling packages, and see which one is easiest while being the most advanced for you to use.


Good luck.


Cheers,

-naota

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 11:38
Isn't there a south american (Or an african) tribe that does the pulling out of the hair when they turn 14 or 16 (can't remeber which) it's supposed to be a cleanser of your sins when going into maturity - looks painful but they get them drunk first anyway. But it would be more fun to see someone here do it, especially one of those long hair hippy members.

Support the return of Cow-Fishing! Hook up Paris Hilton and die!
Fallout
22
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 13:43
Btw, AI is pretty much the hardest thing you can do in DBP (obviously excluding the use of DarkAI). So if you're struggling to put games together, don't be surprised if you struggle to write AI.

Just remember this basic concept. Break the AI operations down into the smallest steps possible. So if you want a guy to run over to a rock, duck down behind it, and then pop up and shoot at you, you need to break it down into the smallest components, like so:



Very lame, quick example, but any complex AI can be broken down into easily programmable steps if you keep abstracting it. If you can't figure out how to program a step, break it down even more. Then you program each simple step, piece them all together, and hey presto, you have Terminator Skynet global thermonuclear war intelligent AI.


Zotoaster
19
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Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 13:53
Quote: "Btw, AI is pretty much the hardest thing you can do in DBP "


Actually, this is quite a good thing to expand upon. You can view game making kinda like writing AI, i.e. you can have a very, very simple state machine, with things like "run", "walk", "chase" and "evade", but ofcourse, it can get more complex, like a chatbot.

So you can view game making in the same way. I agree with Cash, make pong, atleast you know such a simple thing is something you can make alot better easily (infact I believe evn Cash made a pong game once while at TGC...), then just climb the ladder

And dont worry about just using cubes. Graphics aren't that important, but to spice them up, it's really not that hard. A few textures = good. Ambience, Lighting, Fog = better, Sphere/Cube Mapping = great, Shaders = Very great!

Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 14:10 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 14:12
Pong was the first thing I made. I think it was my very first post on the forum. It was Pong on steroids though - Pong y2k It had babes and balls and fire. The coding wasn't that good though.

I've done some of my best coding during challenges. I created my timer based animation system during the TYTT compo, and I created all kinds of reusable systems during the Dark Physics compo.

Something that I alluded to vaguely but Fallout pointed out directly - two years of programming experience isn't much at all. I've been programming for about 16 years. Mind you, the first things I programmed really sucked. I wanted to make an IF game on the Commodore 64 in Basic. My big innovation was computerized speech (borrowed from somewhere else, of course). I made different little games in GWBasic and Qbasic, then starting using Visual Studio, including C++ and Java. I started DBP a couple years ago and with this I've been able to make some cool things, but I've got some experience under my belt.


Come see the WIP!
Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 14:16
Quote: "I've done some of my best coding during challenges"


I find this too, hence the mention of the DBPro Challenges.

I remember the NVIDIA compo, and even though I didn't finish my game (due to boredom), my engine was almost complete, and at the time, it was one of the best engines I ever made, it was really cool. I find putting yourself in a little pressure, i.e. deadlines, etc, can get the best out of you (well, that's what they do around exam time, so hey, it must work )

Fallout
22
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 14:33
That's not a bad idea actually. I've never thought of imposing forced deadlines on myself. Obviously competitions do that for you, but perhaps time planning is important for indie game devs as well. We all know planning every step of your game design is important, but I don't think anyone ever mentions time deadlines.


Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 14:43
I use them for GH. I admit, I rarely meet them (but I'm rarely that far off), but it does give me a consistent set of goals for me to reach.

Simpler games don't take as much structure, that's one reason I always recommend that people simplify their game making goals. Bigger games definitely need more structure. I approach GH in that manner as well - it is a collection of separate but compatible pieces that all fit together to form an RPG. Every element was developed separately - combat, magic, AI, conversations, etc.

I can't speak for everyone, but deadlines and smaller pieces works great for me.


Come see the WIP!
Van B
Moderator
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:09
The best way to learn how to model is to make models.
The best way to learn how to write a game is to write games.

It's only rocket science if you let it be - you have to finish games to go through and learn that period where you have to get your code to behave like a game. It takes a lot of organizing, and it's something that you have to learn yourself.

I think the best bet is to decide on a small project that you can do in the space of a month, maybe a remake that doesn't require too much modelling or artwork, something you can get your teeth into that won't get away from you. But the important thing is to start that project and finish it, because that's the only way to advance to more complex game ideas. It took me a good couple of months to make my first DB game, going from no modelling experience to making an animated character for a game - these days I could do the same over the course of a weekend if I applied myself, but that's after 8 or 9 completed projects.

Start of realistic about what you can achieve in that 1 month period with a game idea that would be fun. Your fortunate to know collision techniques already which I think is a major hurdle for most people, bug-free collision is tricky. Asteroids for instance is something that would sit well using Sparky's, anyone could make a ship model, and some asteroids - and there's a lot of scope for making it pretty once the mechanics are in there. Taking a reasonably simple game idea like Asteroids and making it a complete game is a good way to get the ball rolling I think.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:13 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 15:17
Quote: "But the important thing is to start that project and finish it"


Not necesarily true. I often start side projects to take my mind off my main project when I get a little bored of it. I dont intend to finish them, and by the time I'm bored of them, I can move back to my main project. It's a repetitive process, but it can keep your project going for months and even years.


[Edit]

But that's only true if you stick to it. You have to have the main project which you do intend to finish, and just have the side, temporary projects. Otherwise, if you just jump from project to project as you get bored, you're screwed, and as Van said, you can't move onto anything bigger.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:23 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 15:27
Quote: " I can't program, I can't model, I can't draw I just don't know what to do! "


Neither can I - but so what ? There are very few 'great' programmers, models and artists. Most of us are average at best.

I'm sure it's already been mentioned umpteen times but i'll and my 2 cents worth to the chorus line for what's it worth.

If you want improve you're programming skills, then set small achievable goals. So rather than shooting for current eye candy, or the DOOM 43. Just work on the mechanics of the core problems at hand. Stuff like Lists (data management), Animation, AI, Collision (to name a few) are fundamental in game programming..

It's important to realize we don't need to guru's at this stuff. Just average, Over time our ideas/skills will grow.

Make small demos/games to learn. Who cares what they look like or how well they play to begin with. You can add cooler media/fine tuning later. First set yourself a problem and then find a approach/solution. If a problem is too hard for now, drop it and come back to later. (Keep all your old work! - dont't delete anything!) Nothings worth giving you'self an aneurism over.

Generally things process in a linear fashion. I.e. The first versions tend to be awful, but so what. From that will spawn the second generation and so on. Each better than the last Building upon the knowledge we've gather during our last attempt.

It's important to understand that this industry is built upon the knowledge of past generations. While new generation might introduce a new abilities/feature(s), they're also inclusive of the old standard features/problems also.

Anyway, enough drivel, so back to your regular broadcaster

Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 15:58 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 16:04
Quote: "So rather than shooting for current eye candy"
Yep, like I was saying don't go nuts and try to compete with some of the best demos here. Plus don't worry too much if the coding isn't exactly the greatest. As long as it does pretty much what it says on the tin then who cares how it got there (should see some code where I work. Optimised seems to not be in the dictionary...)? You don't have to show your code after all.

Also use all the free media and crappy graphics and models you can get your hands on (not free, but the DB Dark Matter stuff will do). Unless you are a genius artist and can whip it up in no time then leave your own stuff out. Will only take up loads of time, perhaps look like rubbish anyways, and best to get something out of the door to see if people like it. Then worry about appearance. If no-one cares or publically hates it then no need to worry about the graphics and models anymore and you can get on with something else. Put it down to experience. The other option is to create something graphically simplistic. Ball games are good eg. a 3D marble madness clone. You can bung that together with DB primatives.

I remember making a Dungeon Master clone in STOS years ago (you get a lot of free time in Uni). I never completed it (was pretty cool though) and no-one apart from a couple of coding mates ever saw it. Got a lot of ooohhs, and aaaahhhs, as was pretty similar looking and playing to the original game. Spent about 6 months on it before ditching it and starting something new. A friend of mine managed to produce about 10 games in that time, all along the lines of simplistic retro games such as duck hunt and atic atac. Code in a weekend type games. But everyone loved them and played them quite a bit. Even though they were graphically appalling, programmed like he had lost half a brain (I saw some of the code), and had loads of bugs. Sigh... Actually come to think of it I think he even eventually made a stupid little game for the (pretty big) TV show "The Big Breakfast" where it was a prize or something. Git...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 16:04 Edited at: 9th Jul 2007 16:17
I started DBC in 2004, by copying and pasting parts of the code in the examples to make my own programs. I actually started off by making something where you could walk around a tiny world as a robot in 3d, where you could see other robots running around and talk to them, and there was a forest and lake and a tiny town... And it got bigger and bigger. I had no idea how or why any of it worked at first, and had to learn through trial and error. Eventually I got to a point where I knew enough about the code that I could look up commands and actually understand a bit of what their description was. After a while I moved on, and used the sliding collision example to help me build a side scrolling platformer (in 3d, it took a long time for me to learn any 2d). I stuck with platformers, and started a tiny 3d one where you were in this small level and had to collect stars. I kept working on this, and I learned an incredible amount doing it. I think I made at least six different versions of it, and each one was a complete, if very small, game. Basically after that I joined the forum, and not too long after the puzzle compo appeared and I started the first version of my 3d Blockdude game. With that, I've learned so much that I've been able to get to a point where I think I could make some pretty complex games.

I always thought I was very slow to develop programming skills, but now it looks like I did it pretty quickly... One of the rules I set for myself was that I was allowed to come up with as many game ideas as I wanted, but I wasn't allowed to make them until I thought I had to skill to code them. That meant I ended up with boxful's of ideas, many of with went into creating a huge mythology that I want to play out in all of my games, and it also meant that I never started a project so far above my head that I couldn't feel good about it when I stopped working on it.

edit: I say 'stopped working on' because often I ended project I didn't think were very important early, because I no longer wanted to do them, and had already learned what I had wanted to from coding it. I always try to tie those kinds of projects up at a point where they can stand on their own though. That way I still feel like I've accomplished something with them, and as far as I'm concerned, I have.

Something I've just started, is I'm planning out my next few projects. They'll all be fairly small games, if they become games at all. The basic idea is that each game will focus on a certain aspect of game making that I want to improve on. So like say, the first one would focus on controls, with is what I'm most obsessed with right now. In the next game I might focus on building a smart camera and such. It's basically what everyone is talking about, how you should work on the smaller projects, so that you can build your code library up. I'm focusing on certain areas because I have a big projects I'm planning, and need to improve in certain areas before I'm capable of making it.

Deadlines are great, especially when you break everything up into little pieces and give each part a deadline. That's why I really want to start using them...

So I guess I agree with what Cash said, though I like using lots of words to say it.

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 16:48
One of the problems with DBP is it's capable of so much, so you feel like that's what you should be aiming for. It also has a basic syntax and beginner feel, so you feel like you should be able to use it. But, in reality, that's all just going to catch you out.

When I started to make games, it was in GWBasic and then QBasic. To draw graphics in QBasic, I had to get hold of a 3rd party library I didn't quite understand, which had a few basic commands. You could draw dots, clear the screen, set the palette etc. That was it. So I started off with landscape generator engines (2d side on stuff with one level, like a very basic worms 2d), and other stuff. It was dog slow. My point is, I spent years doing that, and because the tools I had at my disposal were so basic, I didn't feel bad that I couldn't achieve much.

Despite DBP being a beginner language (of sorts), the learning curve is still incredibly steep if you try and make a 3D game straight away. Really, if someone had the self-restraint to start at the bottom and gain experience and work their way up, I would recommend something like:
-Start by making simple text adventures to learn the basics of programming
-Add graphics to the text adventures using the 2d command set (sprites etc). Eventually start to animate them
-Make a simple 2D game like pong
-Move up to something more advanced like asteroids or pacman
-Implement the same game in 3D, with some basic camera movement
-Work on top down 3D games, so everything moves in 2D, but is in a 3D environment
-Then try something full 3D

That's for someone very new to programming. Each step should take several months. That'd probably follow along the lines of how I learnt, except mine was spread over a year or two per step. You could condense that down massively into a much shorter time span if you work hard at it, but if you start with full on 3D games, you will miss out on establishing a good foundation of knowledge.


Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 17:15
A good analogy would be like riding a bike. Any kid can do it from a certain age, but that doesn't mean once you can do it you are the new Matt Hoffman.

Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 17:39
Quote: "When I started to make games, it was in GWBasic and then QBasic. To draw graphics in QBasic, I had to get hold of a 3rd party library I didn't quite understand"
Yeah, those were the days. I came from mucking about on the speccy and seriously loving STOS (DB of it's day along with AMOS OMHO). So GWBasic and QBasic were a total pain. Me and that bloke with the simple games found methods to use the mouse properly and have nice (for the time) graphics. I went off on a tangerine making this HyperLink (HTML) type system and a fantastic (unfinished again) adventure game, whereas he wrote a load of simple rubbish but addictive games. Again. Ever try that VB-DOS? Was the first VB and was identical in looks to QB, but had VB functionality. I remember taking ages copying all the 3.5" floppies off my friend.

Quote: "that doesn't mean once you can do it you are the new Matt Hoffman"
Or even that you should try and compete at that level. Go for a ride in the country and have a picnic...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 17:56
Quote: "Go for a ride in the country and have a picnic... "


Or get a disposable BBQ and have a BBQ! Did that at the weekend! Cycled to a river with a few mates, drank cider and had a BBQ and cycled back pisshhed!!

Ok, tangent ...


Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:06
Ah, c'mon, Tangerines are much nicer. Plus it makes you sound a bit like a cockney. At least my old cockney boss used to say that.... git....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:11
What planet do you live on where Tangerines are nicer than a burger and a couple of hot dogs and a litre of river-cooled-pikey-Strongbow?


Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:23
Burgers are too fat. Hot dogs are too watery. Strongbow < Magners.

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:29
Ahah! Well in your face mr Zotoaster! Because I actually had Magners! But I just said Strongbow to sound more Pikey!!


Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:32
[paradox]

So you lied about having Strongbow? That means you lied just there! So you did have Strongbow!

[/paradox]



Don't think I aint clever enough to figure you out buddy

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:39
Quote: "But the important thing is to start that project and finish it"

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. To me nothing is more important than finishing a game. The exact methods are greatly different from person to person, of course, but I think working on something that you don't intend to finish is pointless and frustrating.

Quote: "Not necesarily true. I often start side projects to take my mind off my main project when I get a little bored of it. I dont intend to finish them, and by the time I'm bored of them, I can move back to my main project."

Oh my... Perhaps it's just not necessarily what you think? I personally see switching between projects as nothing but a waste of time. Especially if those projects aren't going to result in anything at all. I mean, that time can be spent on something that will result in a meaningful product. You don't get points for not finishing a game, but having a game completed certainly does mean something.

Quote: "It's a repetitive process, but it can keep your project going for months and even years."

Years of nothing, more than likely. If you get bored of a project, work on a different aspect of it. I'll switch between tasks - breaking it up into smaller tasks helps that. I also make media sometimes, that can be fun and a very different change of pace.


Come see the WIP!
Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 18:43
Quote: "Oh my... Perhaps it's just not necessarily what you think? I personally see switching between projects as nothing but a waste of time. Especially if those projects aren't going to result in anything at all. I mean, that time can be spent on something that will result in a meaningful product. You don't get points for not finishing a game, but having a game completed certainly does mean something."


I worked on JemScript for nearly a year. If I didn't take short breaks to make simple games like that sledding game, I would have stopped months ago.

Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 19:17
Quote: "I personally see switching between projects as nothing but a waste of time. Especially if those projects aren't going to result in anything at all."


I couldn't disagree with that more. Honestly it doesn't matter what the TGC community, or any community thinks of you if you don't release a game in the WIP board. People here are mature enough (or so I'd hope) to regard people not based on their forum releases.

You can learn a ton from writing little things for yourself, handy algorithms, figuring little tricks out and shelving them for a large project. If the project is deemed un-fun or gets to be a chore, there's no shame in starting a new project.

Myself, I can't release a game here for legal reasons, which really, really sucks. But that doesn't stop me from working on my C++ every single day, and building a collection of useful classes for later re-use.

Commercially, there are a TON of games in the game industry that are worked on until the 11th hour then shelved eternally. Look at Starcraft Ghost--- how many years of development went into that? The only thing they would lose with that game not appearing is money, but they would reuse that code for the future, as that's the only logical thing to do. Every game company builds new games with old code, reusing this and that, etc. If they need something to be done in the next-gen game, and we can re-use code from a shelved game, or released game from last gen, we'll most definitely take the bits and pieces we need.

All that matters in the end (if this is a hobby), is that you're learning by your mistakes. I haven't released a game here in 3 years, but I'm learning all the time, and no worse for it.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 19:49
I would suggest doing all the tutorials to make sure you understand all the basic concepts, or even ask questions about them on the forum. Do you know about:
-Arrays
-Types
-Functions
-Gosubs
-Loops
-If Statements
-Object manipulation (including limbs)
-2D (sprites)
-Input

If not, look into them and feel free to ask questions. You're also welcome to email me about any of them and I'll try my best to help . As for modelling, trying 3DWS. You will be modelling in no more than 3 days. It's very easy to catch on to, so for you to say that you can't model (at least simple 3D objects that use mostly boxes), means that you probably haven't tried .

I learned a lot from trying and failing many times at Pirates of Port Royale, but I kept at it. I've completely rewritten the engine no less than 5 times since I started 3 and a half years ago, and I had programmed for almost a year before that. For the first six months of it, all I had were textured boxes and a "control camera with arrowkeys" statement. I slowly learned all about how to make it better, understanding polygons, starting to make my models in CS4, then deciding to make my whole world in CS4, and then to create a world editor, and then I rewrote that world editor and you have what you see today . It wasn't until about 6 months to a year ago that I felt really confident that I could do almost anything thrown at me. That's 4 years after I started, so you're on track if you keep with it and learn by mistake and tutorials . What's the game you're wanting to make? Why not start making a simple part of it? It most likely won't be the what you will use in the final version, but you won't learn if you don't try it. With tutorials, it's kind of like school. You are given a general education for everything, but you don't really learn how to adapt what you know or what really works best for what you're trying to do until you do it.

I don't meant to show off PoPR or my own skills (which still aren't great), but it's the best example I can think of to help encourage you . Good luck!


Zotoaster
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 20:25
Listen to Gil and Cash They're making some of the biggest games in TGC, heheh.

One thing to remember: Don't start with the menu and work from there ¬_¬ You will never finish the game that way, lol.

Infact, there's a really, really awesome tutorial to make Limit Rush. I swear, it may be a really small game, but look at it, it's gone down in the TGC book and it's staying there. Anyone should be proud to be able to make a game like that, even if they find it hard or not

Pixelator
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 21:23
If your new to programming you probably should start small. I learned the db language by getting an idea ,and work on it until i have a question about how to do something. then i go into command and look for the command that i need. Also, it is a good idea to start text based, then go 2d then after you have got 2d down, start with 3d. Dont let time discourage you. It took me 1 year in dark basic and 2 years in other basic programming compilers/programs to make a simple text based game. if your completely sick and stired of programming, take a break. it helps

The problem with the gaming community is people think that the resolution of a game defines how good it is. I am not afraid to make a game where the main character is 50x50.
Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 22:12
Quote: "Tangerines are nicer than a burger"
Bit of a misunderstanding there. Tangerines are much nicer than tangents...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2007 23:06
Trying to get clever, eh?


Bizar Guy
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 01:22
I agree with Cash about working on different aspects of a project when you get tired of it. you may even find something you can seriously improve if you do. If you are tired of the coding part all together, you can look at the design doc or even draw some concept art.

When people talk about making a side project, I think they're using it as a kind of break, the same way some people will take breaks by chilling out or reading a book (and some even interacting with people!!!). I take breaks from programming by drawing, and take breaks from drawing by programming. A very efficient system, when I don't add in too many extra breaks from both.

Darth Vader
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 05:58
This is what I love about this forum, this is what makes me come back and back! Everyone is so helpful!!!
I think I can see my mistake, I started 2 years ago and practically jumped into 3D skipping 2D and expecting to make a really great game! I didn't know anything about collision, physics, AI, shader's heck I didn't even know that C++ was a programming language! I was to impatient and thought that I had to do everything now, like I had to be a commercial quality standards now. I also don't think I put enough effort into it I started programming around my forum join date (About a week prior probably) and after about 2months I stopped, I stopped for such a long time (6-8 months) that when I cam back I had forgot everything! So really I haven't even been at this for 2 years technically.

So yeah I'm taking all of this advice and reading tutorials and taking things at a slower pace putting more effort into it more design work but most importantly I think i'm just going to have fun!


Van B
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Posted: 10th Jul 2007 09:27
That's the spirit Darth, if coding your own games stops being fun then your doing something wrong .


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...

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